Conspiracy theorist Kevin Purfield arrested for harassing Aurora victims' families

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
When you say stuff like this it would be nice if you provided facts. 91% of US military jobs do not involve combat operations.

http://www.todaysmilitary.com/military-myth-versus-reality

To say PTSD is extremely prevalent among veterans labels is not factual and can lead to civilians jumping to conclusions based on the label veteran.

[h=1]More U.S. troops committing suicide than being killed fighting in Afghanistan in 'tough year' for armed services[/h]
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
More U.S. troops committing suicide than being killed fighting in Afghanistan in 'tough year' for armed services


I'm not suggesting the PTSD is not a problem, it is. So is suicide in the active duty and veterans. It is more important to use facts. The article you link to did not try to link suicide causality to combat operations or combat jobs. When you can provide that information please post it here.

The standard that is should be used in debate is:

1. Make thesis statement
2. Support with evidence
3. If multilayer, conclude with a wrapup

Oh wait, that is the standard used in debate.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
[h=1]More U.S. troops committing suicide than being killed fighting in Afghanistan in 'tough year' for armed services

Except that article is comparing 222 combat deaths out of a pool of approximately 60,000 soldiers in Afghanistan to suicides amongst a pool of 1.43 million US troops.

247 suicides out of 1.43 million is .0172 percent.

PTSD is serious...and suicides amongst returning vets is serious...but twisting the facts to sensationalize headlines doesn't help.
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
Except that article is comparing 222 combat deaths out of a pool of approximately 60,000 soldiers in Afghanistan to suicides amongst a pool of 1.43 million US troops.

247 suicides out of 1.43 million is .0172 percent.

PTSD is serious...and suicides amongst returning vets is serious...but twisting the facts to sensationalize headlines doesn't help.

Latest stat I can find (2009) has US suicide rate at 19.5 per 100K. That's 278.85 for a comparable number. Hmmm. Cause for thought among those who do.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
I'm not suggesting the PTSD is not a problem, it is. So is suicide in the active duty and veterans. It is more important to use facts. The article you link to did not try to link suicide causality to combat operations or combat jobs. When you can provide that information please post it here.

The standard that is should be used in debate is:

1. Make thesis statement
2. Support with evidence
3. If multilayer, conclude with a wrapup

Oh wait, that is the standard used in debate.

I am very sorry it did not meet your requirements. Should I make an official complaint to the Daily Mail? Please can you tell me what to write to them in case I don't do it correctly?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I am very sorry it did not meet your requirements. Should I make an official complaint to the Daily Mail? Please can you tell me what to write to them in case I don't do it correctly?

Oxy, agree or disagree, and explain. "oh sorry it was not good enough for you" is not really helping anyone.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/magazine/issues/winter09/articles/winter09pg10-14.html

The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs estimates that PTSD afflicts:


  • Almost 31 percent of Vietnam veterans
  • As many as 10 percent of Gulf War (Desert Storm) veterans
  • 11 percent of veterans of the war in Afghanistan
  • 20 percent of Iraqi war veterans
Those are pretty big numbers. Not sure if they qualify as 'extremely prevalent' in the minds of everyone here, but it seems that way to me, given its often a rather seriously debilitating condition. I'd thought PTSD as a commonality amongst returning war veterans was pretty much public knowledge, so didn't think to include any proofs.

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/treatment-ptsd.asp
In regards to treatment options for PTSD. The two methods seemingly deemed as being the most commonly successful are talk-therapies.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/magazine/issues/winter09/articles/winter09pg10-14.html


Those are pretty big numbers. Not sure if they qualify as 'extremely prevalent' in the minds of everyone here, but it seems that way to me, given its often a rather seriously debilitating condition.

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/treatment-ptsd.asp
In regards to treatment options for PTSD. The two methods seemingly deemed as being the most commonly successful are talk-therapies.

So what are you suggesting Grieves?
That there is a link between the military and mental health?
That being in the military brings on mental health problems?
That a large number of mentally ill people join up?
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
I am very sorry it did not meet your requirements. Should I make an official complaint to the Daily Mail? Please can you tell me what to write to them in case I don't do it correctly?

You can use a different source that tracks the rate of PTSD or suicides to veterans who were in combat. I was in a combat area and received combat pay but did not see combat. I'm not saying this to be combative (sorry). I am interested in the numbers.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/magazine/issues/winter09/articles/winter09pg10-14.html


Those are pretty big numbers. Not sure if they qualify as 'extremely prevalent' in the minds of everyone here, but it seems that way to me, given its often a rather seriously debilitating condition. I'd thought PTSD as a commonality amongst returning war veterans was pretty much public knowledge, so didn't think to include any proofs.

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/treatment-ptsd.asp
In regards to treatment options for PTSD. The two methods seemingly deemed as being the most commonly successful are talk-therapies.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/magazine/issues/winter09/articles/winter09pg10-14.html

The key is the terms. I am a Gulf War veteran. I was deployed to Desert Storm and received combat pay. I was not in combat. The percentage of Gulf War combat veterans with PTSD could be (probably is) higher. The same with the other percentages. My point is that is important to present the facts and evidence so we can see the arguments and remove bunk. Not everything that is brought here is bunk.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
You can use a different source that tracks the rate of PTSD or suicides to veterans who were in combat. I was in a combat area and received combat pay but did not see combat. I'm not saying this to be combative (sorry). I am interested in the numbers.

Hows that? :)

Pretty much disagrees with Daily Mail figures, (source CNS News).
http://www.defense.gov/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=15797

 

Grieves

Senior Member
The percentage of Gulf War combat veterans with PTSD could be (probably is) higher.
I'd agree with that. I'd bet a fair number if not a majority of cases go undiagnosed, especially with the more recent conflicts, as many may still be struggling successfully to hide their situation.

I'd also just like to say Landru, if I haven't said it already, I pretty consistently appreciate your contributions to the conversations you engage in. Sometimes we adamantly disagree to the point of contention, but your position is typically firmly rooted in consideration of the facts, and you don't seem to engage in the 'tactics' that often bog these sorts of conversations down, and that I admittedly engage in sometimes myself when trying to get a point across.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Hows that? :)

Pretty much disagrees with Daily Mail figures, (source CNS News).
http://www.defense.gov/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=15797


This still doesn't address the question of suicide numbers as they relate to combat veterans. The only distinction seems to be active duty and non-active duty. Not the same thing.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
So what are you suggesting Grieves?
That there is a link between the military and mental health?
That being in the military brings on mental health problems?
That a large number of mentally ill people join up?
lol.... If an avid reader of Metabunk developed an obsessive loathing for nonsensical conspiracy theorists, and climbed a clock-tower with a gun resolute that Alex Jones die for all his insufferable lies, would Metabunk be to blame...?
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
This still doesn't address the question of suicide numbers as they relate to combat veterans. The only distinction seems to be active duty and non-active duty. Not the same thing.

Can't really help then. Seems the best place is the website I linked to.
I understand the distinction you make seems reasonable but for all practical purposes combat vets are listed as those who were out there on active duty. Ergo a cook or radar operator etc may not be 'in firefights' or 'on patrol' but are still listed as on 'active duty'. Having said that, they are still in a high risk area.

Then again, what about the civilian population and ptsd, they are in a high risk situation 24/7/365.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5334479/n...returning-soldiers-suffers-ptsd/#.UW8qlsoROe8
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
lol.... If an avid reader of Metabunk developed an obsessive loathing for nonsensical conspiracy theorists, and climbed a clock-tower with a gun resolute that Alex Jones die for all his insufferable lies, would Metabunk be to blame...?

Good point. AJ has had some very strong words directed against him here. Even has a few threads devoted to demonising him, (sorry obviously meant debunking). If some dangerous, mentally ill, easily led person reads all that about him... well it's frightening really what they could do.

What could be done to prevent some mentally ill Metabunk reader/contributor/debunker from 'taking action' against him after being incited by the thread or comments?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
lol.... If an avid reader of Metabunk developed an obsessive loathing for nonsensical conspiracy theorists, and climbed a clock-tower with a gun resolute that Alex Jones die for all his insufferable lies, would Metabunk be to blame...?

These things are not symmetrical.

  • Metabunk is claiming Alex Jones is profiting from fearmongering.
  • Conspiracy theorists claim that the elite have essentially taken over the country and are removing our freedoms and replacing the constitution with a UN mandated NWO while spraying us with poison and conducting false flag operations that kill innocent people.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
What evidence do you have for that?

Doesn't really lay out a source for the figure so grain of salt. What is funny is when you google how much does Alex Jones make? you get a lot of sites claiming Jones is a disinfo shill.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2013/01/09/who-is-alex-jones-anyway-five-fun-factoids/

 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Mick: I think you are the only one here pushing the suggestion of all mentally ill people being dangerous (even though you are pushing against it).

I don't think so. JR at least, though they may deny it, has pretty clearly exhibited they hold at least some stock in the stigma.

I've gone out of my way more than once to say that I don't think ALL mentally ill people are dangerous. FOr Pete's sake, my husband is manic depressive, I understand mental illness. You're the one who keeps putting words in my mouth and others' mouths. You take one statement, twist it, then draw a false conclusion from it.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
JR, I have NEVER said that ALL folks with mental illness are dangerous, but 2 posters here keep saying I am. I have to wonder why?

I have chronic depression, so does my hubby. I also have ADD and some OCD. I have a good friend that I almost had to end my friendship with, because of their mental illness (this person attacked me in public and did not remember doing it--we were 'just making up stories on them'.) They got help and as long as they take their meds, they are a nice, wonderful, helpful person. Without, they are unpredictable and could even become dangerous.

There is a difference in that person and me or my hubby. We have never shown any violence tendencies.

Maybe the problem with a couple of posters here is that still see a stigma in mental illness. I don't, it is like diabetes, a health problem that one has to recognize and treat and LIVE with.

If someone shows a criminal or violent actions when they are not on medication, then do you REALLY want society to leave them free until they hurt others? We wouldn't not allow someone with Chorea or the plague free to roam and to infect others? Strep throat, yep that's ok, it's not highly communicable.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
I do not believe every mentally ill person is dangerous and I've said that many times. I think that some mentally ill people may be influenced by pushers of conspiracy theories to become dangerous, and I think I've been very clear about that. Much as a mentally ill person can be goaded to murder by websites that feature targets superimposed over a doctor who performs abortions, a mentally ill person may be influenced by chemtrail believers advocating violence against pilots.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/magazine/issues/winter09/articles/winter09pg10-14.html

The key is the terms. I am a Gulf War veteran. I was deployed to Desert Storm and received combat pay. I was not in combat. The percentage of Gulf War combat veterans with PTSD could be (probably is) higher. The same with the other percentages. My point is that is important to present the facts and evidence so we can see the arguments and remove bunk. Not everything that is brought here is bunk.

Under current criteria you do not have to have been in combat to be diagnosed with PTSD. Since the broadening of the criteria it may well be that those who did not see combat outnumber those that did, statistically that is given that the number in support roles are higher than combat. I did read of a case in which a US reservist was diagnosed even though they never went in theatre. It was the fear of going that caused the issue.

I know in the UK it is quite difficult to gather statistics. We don't have a VA as such that deals with medical issues. Once someone leaves they come under the umbrella of the NHS and get lost in the system.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I do not believe every mentally ill person is dangerous and I've said that many times. I think that some mentally ill people may be influenced by pushers of conspiracy theories to become dangerous, and I think I've been very clear about that. Much as a mentally ill person can be goaded to murder by websites that feature targets superimposed over a doctor who performs abortions, a mentally ill person may be influenced by chemtrail believers advocating violence against pilots.

The exact same argument can be applied to "normal" people as well. You dint have to be mentally I'll to be vunerable to such persuasion. Until recently I was a counsellor with my.clients being violent offenders. Few of them had any diagnosis for a mental illness which surprises many people.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I have heard that there is a lot of PTSD among the drone pilots.

I have some discussions that the ease of communication with home, may be making things worse. They are living in a war zone and still having all the worries of home, the car that needs repairs, the sick parent, the acting out teen, all the worries of both at the same time. It is a different type of war.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I have heard that there is a lot of PTSD among the drone pilots.

I have some discussions that the ease of communication with home, may be making things worse. They are living in a war zone and still having all the worries of home, the car that needs repairs, the sick parent, the acting out teen, all the worries of both at the same time. It is a different type of war.
I have often discussed the same. There is the issue of transition back into the real world. We have a situation were you are home within hours of been in theatre. I have always felt that there should be a cooling off period to process everything that has happened and to adjust to real life. Whenever I came home I would stay with a friend for a couple of nights before going home to my family. It gave us time to discuss things and have a drink. It made the experience less traumatic.

I think we are lucky in the British military. A usual length of tour is 6 months with a 2 week leave in that time. They have been doing that since the '70's and the main reason is to reduce stress on both the individual as well as their family. It works well and the last statistic I read was around 5% on active service wiil suffer PTSD. Now that is not a bad figure when compared to the civilian population (I remember a figure of 15% mention for PTSD rates after a major incident but I would need to check that).
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
When I was based in Belfast, while not a war zone as such it was a very high stress environment for the military. Your operating bases and accommodations were windowless and there was a very high tempo of patrol time as compared to down time. If we managed to get a weekend off, especially a long weekend, some of the lads used to go home. Flights then were expensive (in the 80's) but the ferry to Liverpool only took 8 hours and it had a bar :). Home for most was a couple of hours by train from there. I never went home, and I could not understand those that did. There is no way that I would be able to switch off once I got home, and that would be unfair to my wife and family. However one thing I noticed over the years was that those that went home at every opportunity appeared to be those that would develop problems later down the road. As to whether it was homesickness, or even not enjoying army life, that left them more susceptible to issues I have no idea, but the link was there.

Sorry to witter on about PTSD but I find it a fascinating subject. In the army I was in the medical corp and a qualified psychiatric nurse, however I had an unusual role in that I worked in the medical section of infantry units primarily as a medic and secondarily to provide psychiatric support/advice, and undertake assessments, for our medical officer. The principle was to hopefully have someone close at hand to identify and mental issues within the units. Amazingly we did not see much in the way of PTSD, as it was then understood. Many would present with depression or maybe acute stress disorder but rarely any PTSD. It seems that most would just want to leave the army or mask their symptoms for fear of being labelled weak. As I understand it people that are presenting with PTSD after leaving the military seem to be in their 40's and have spent years repressing their feelings. Not a healthy situation all round.
 

pseacraft

Active Member
.... There is the issue of transition back into the real world. We have a situation were you are home within hours of been in theatre. I have always felt that there should be a cooling off period to process everything that has happened and to adjust to real life. Whenever I came home I would stay with a friend for a couple of nights before going home to my family. It gave us time to discuss things and have a drink. It made the experience less traumatic....

I think we are lucky in the British military. ....

Actually the MoD has a program in place for this transition, right here on Cyprus. I am not sure how long it is, at least a week me thinks, or what all activities are involved in the program but we see them quite often. Its a good program. My understanding is that all UK forces under go this transition. Its no more go back to home station and trash the town. I remember in the late '80's when I was stationed in Scotland, the Royal Marines would return from NI, you avoided Arbroath for that week.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Thanks for the heads up. I had heard of it but the people I have spoken to have never been. Google tells be it is for formed units so that explains why the folk I know did not go through, as they went out on attachment away from their home unit. Its about time the MoD got their arse into gear for stuff like this.

I know what you mean about units returning from NI. My home unit was in Aldershot and when any of the Para units came back it was hell on earth. It really was not my cup of tea.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
The exact same argument can be applied to "normal" people as well. You dint have to be mentally I'll to be vunerable to such persuasion. Until recently I was a counsellor with my.clients being violent offenders. Few of them had any diagnosis for a mental illness which surprises many people.

So they were undiagnosed.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Doesn't really lay out a source for the figure so grain of salt. What is funny is when you google how much does Alex Jones make?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2013/01/09/who-is-alex-jones-anyway-five-fun-factoids/


Which is no big deal in the scheme of things for a high profile person, especially when bearing in mind the costs and overheads. He is entitled to make a living after all and turnover obviously does not reflect profits.

Add to that, he is married to a professional woman who is reputed to be independently reasonably well off as well.

But by no stretch of the imagination can it be called profiteering. There is a huge difference between making a profit and profiteering.

Compound that with the staunch defenses posited on this site of banksters and politicians who are profiteering... Well enough said IMO.

you get a lot of sites claiming Jones is a disinfo shill.

Not only Jones but many others like Beck and Ventura et al... It is after all 'Infowars' :)
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
I don't think that conspiracy theories are good for people with mental illness. Those people need to stick with real things and stay away from too much fantasy.

CT aren't very good for people with less than a full grasp on reality, those who are specially gullible, or who don't have the critical thinking skills to understand
the fallacies.

I was lookin around the other day and ran across this person who found that his mental problems were made worse by CT's, it took him years to get over it.
http://www.psychforums.com/bipolar/topic110931.html

Don't forget this sad set of pages:
http://www.wellsphere.com/schizophr...iracy-theories-a-sign-of-schizophrenia/897991

Could be that it is not good for people to become so afraid that they will accept anything, 'just to feel safe' or 'be protected'.
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/04/16/cbs-news-bombs-made-to-look-like-discarded-property/
One does naturally wonder what type of films he produces.

But it also appears, a significant number of such minded people are also inclined to be proponents of 'everyone else should as well'.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
You take one statement, twist it, then draw a false conclusion from it.
Alright. No commentary this time.
The exact same argument can be applied to "normal" people as well. You dint have to be mentally I'll to be vunerable to such persuasion. Until recently I was a counsellor with my.clients being violent offenders. Few of them had any diagnosis for a mental illness which surprises many people.
So they were undiagnosed.
No. They were not mentally ill.
Is this not another demonstration of the stigma? Your statement does suggest you feel that violent offenders are inherently mentally ill, doesn't it? Again, just because you don't realize it, and are sympathetic yourself toward the mentally ill, doesn't preclude the possibility that you're buying into the stigma surrounding mental illness.

JR, I have NEVER said that ALL folks with mental illness are dangerous, but 2 posters here keep saying I am. I have to wonder why?
I've never said anything of the sort. I've simply pointed out how some of your statements have appealed to the stigma surrounding mental illness, such as suggesting they're 'the problem' in society, as opposed to a natural condition of it. It encourages the notion that the mentally ill are 'broken' people, and in need of fixing. And of what use or value is a broken thing until it's fixed?
Maybe the problem with a couple of posters here is that still see a stigma in mental illness.
There IS still a stigma surrounding mental illness in North America, whether or not you perceive it.
 
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