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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    [​IMG]

    LaVoy Finicum was shot by the FBI. Depending on your interpretation of the video he was shot either before or after he put his hands down and reached across his body with his right hand to an area on the left side of his body. His left hand is either reaching for the same area, or pulling his jacket aside.

    A common meme being shared is show above, on the left. The claim is that since Finicum carried his gun on the right, then he would not have reached for his left side unless he had been shot there.

    This is incorrect. While Fincum was well known at the Malheur refuge for having a gun slung on his right hip (his open carry gun), he also commonly wore a concealed carry 9mm on his left side. This is mounted in a shoulder holster, and would be drawn with the right hand, like this:

    [​IMG]

    Hence, while it's within the realm of possibility that he was shot where he carried his gun, his actions seem more consistent with reaching for his concealed weapon.

    There are multiple images and video of Finicum with this shoulder holster - the only use of which is to mount a gun on the left side that is drawn with the right hand.

    This video was from the day before he was shot. Given that he wears the holster in an interview with a local newspaper, it seems very likely he would have worn it when he ventured out of the refuge.


    However, he might not have used the holster the next day.
    http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-co...ting-video-fbi-releases-footage-lavoy-finicum
    The arm motions for drawing from a left inside jacket pocket would be essentially identical (in the limited resolution video) to drawing from the holster.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
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  3. Galan

    Galan New Member

    If you decide to watch the video be sure to watch the whole thing. It was interesting to see the FBI and the OSP working. It is long. But if you have the time, it offers a small picture of what law enforcement has to face.

    At first, I was wondering why they were not rendering first aid. The 3 other people in the truck, one of who appears to have been armed, soon answers that question.
     
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  4. occams rusty scissor

    occams rusty scissor Active Member

    Also - a sudden, obvious reaching movement under clothing when being approached by police with guns drawn, during a high risk vehicle stop, whilst being a part of a militia group who's leader has said he will die for the cause, is not going to end well. Doesn't really need to be justified much more than that - if you were told to keep still, hands in the open, just do it.
     
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  5. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    The bold part isn't even necessary by a long shot. There's a reason why, "He was reaching for something" is almost a cure all for a cop who's shot somebody. If a cop has not told you to produce an item - indeed if the cop has told you NOT to do so - it's a really, really bad idea.
     
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  6. MickeyS

    MickeyS Member

    Not to discount what you're saying, but back in my former life (in a galaxy far far away), I knew an individual who was living under an alias and was involved in illegal activities. He already had a record in his real name, one of which was for an armed standoff he had with the police in a motel room. Because of the illegal activities he was involved in with his alias, a task force issued a no-knock warrant and upon busting down his door (an event he had been waiting for in order to go out "suicide by cop") he immediately fired upon the police and even superficially wounded one of the officers (a wound that would have likely been mortal hadn't a certain somebody been in the way) They still did not open fire on him(most likely due to the fact he had one bullet left in his weapon) This standoff, which lasted less than a half hour, came down to him ending his own life as they would not shoot him.

    Now....I personally believe the officers in the case of this person I knew, would have been expecting fire power and far more likely to be ready to open fire right away had they known who they were actually dealing with. At the very least, tossed a tear gas grenade first. Because had he had a clear shot when they came, that first officer in would have lost his life that day. I'm just saying, I do believe that law enforcement does indeed prepare themselves according to the information they have before hand. These officers were not playing AT ALL in this situation with Finicum, and rightfully so. I'm just saying, in my experience, law enforcement is not as trigger happy as people make them out to be. Not saying that's what you're doing Hevach. :)

    That being said, no, it is never a good idea to reach for anything if an armed officer tells you not to move.

    My real question, however, is why isn't THIS targeted as a "false flag"??
     
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  7. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

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  8. MickeyS

    MickeyS Member

  9. Bill Statler

    Bill Statler Member

    Among people who are broadly in agreement with the goals of the Malheur occupiers, there's a huge range of opinions and (poorly substantiated) theories about the occupation, and about the death of Finicum. But these folks are mostly divided into two camps regarding Finicum's last 15 seconds of life: either he was an idiot who got himself killed, or he was murdered by law enforcement. And among the "he was murdered" camp, they don't really care whether he was carrying two guns or one or zero, because he was "obviously" (in their view) not an immediate threat at the moment he was shot.

    Which is a roundabout way of saying, I like having the info about where Finicum typically carried his guns, but I haven't been able to use that info to persuade anybody of anything, since their minds are already made up.
     
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  10. Gridlock

    Gridlock Active Member

    The conspiracy theorist paradox* - someone who takes the time to address their theory must have an ulterior motive for doing so.

    * Or something like that, I'm no philosopher.
     
  11. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    I belong to some Jade Helm FB pages. Which are now pretty much the "Occupation" of the Refuge discussion group. Some have gone to Burns to "support" the "patriots". The latest discussion I saw had to do with a woman who was in the car with them who, I kid you not, they were saying is the same woman who was in a theatre shooting, was she an "actor". Was Lavoy tased before he was shot? Should they post only information that is verified as "true" (of course not, there's time later to sort it out). They're all playing soldier, spy, it's a total fantasy world, one with guns and people willing to die. If anyone wants the link to the rabbit holiest group I've found, message me and I'll send it.
     
  12. MickeyS

    MickeyS Member

    This place is better than the news...it causes me to really look into events. I personally didn't know too much about this (I get so upset, I take current events in measured doses) except that these extremists were at it again. I'm glad I have been able to really look into this.

    Giving TMI about me personally, I am Mormon, I am married to an Arizonian Cowboy (more rock n roll than country lol) who was raised on and worked the family ranch south of Tuscon his entire life (a ranch that remains in the family), and we are gun owners. And I need to give my input....NONE of this is the way that ANY of these groups should be represented. Period. We are beyond frustrated by this and my father in law is turning over in his grave I'm sure. If he were alive today, he would be disgusted. Not that I want to see anyone die, but I'm dismayed by the support Finicum is receiving in these events.

    Hope that's not too off-topic...looks like I continue to have my moments
     
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  13. zootalaws

    zootalaws New Member

    Undoubtably most in the second camp would also have been positive Zimmerman was fighting for his life and had no option other than to shoot the unarmed teen.

    Their mental justification is as slippery as mercury on a mirror.
     
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  14. Bill Statler

    Bill Statler Member

    I promise I'm going to try to keep this related to Finicum and not ramble.o_O

    Maybe.

    The thing is, there's a strong overlap in ideas between the right-wing anti-police people and the left-wing anti-police people. Not that either side is willing to admit it very often. But the right-wingers are looking at other well-known incidents where the police appear to have used excessive lethal force, typically against minorities. This supports their belief that Finicum was murdered, because "all" police are doing things like that.

    As for Zimmerman, I dunno. That was excessive use of lethal force by a private individual, so I think you'd see some variation of opinion.
     
  15. john Mont

    john Mont New Member

    Its sad to see a man die.but he made the wrong move.
     
  16. Joe

    Joe Senior Member

  17. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    what does this mean if he was only shot 3 times?
     
  18. Bill Statler

    Bill Statler Member

    Eight shots were fired by law enforcement. The first three were fired by OSP at the front of the vehicle as it approached the roadblock (as shown in the 2 images posted by Joe). Immediately after the vehicle stopped in the snowbank, Finicum exited the driver's side door, said "Go ahead and shoot me", and began to raise both his hands. At this moment, 2 shots were fired by an unidentified FBI agent somewhere to the right of the vehicle; one of the shots went through the vehicle's roof and left-rear window. The FBI agents later denied firing any shots, which is why they are now in trouble.

    I assume this is what Joe means by "they did try to kill him even before the stop".

    The last 3 shots (fired by OSP), which did hit and kill Finicum, came after several seconds of back-and-forth yelling, with Finicum repeatedly moving as if to retrieve the gun from his jacket pocket.

    The big controversy at present is those 2 shots by the FBI, at a moment when Finicum was not an obvious threat to anyone, and the subequent denial that those shots were made.
     
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  19. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    ok so "lethel shots" means shots taken where they were "trying to kill him" vs. whatever all the other shots were for.. warning shots?

    doesnt matter i guess, i was just curious. i always thought lethal meant "cause death". so that part of the article confused me.
     
  20. tadaaa

    tadaaa Active Member

    My view on the word "lethal" in the context of this shooting

    Is that it refers to the type of round/projectile used rather than where it was or wasn't aimed
     
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  21. Evil Petting Zoo

    Evil Petting Zoo New Member

    Even if it is true that he only carried one gun, and it was on his right hip--how would the FBI guys know he is right handed, and only carries one gun on the right hip?
     
  22. Chris Clayton

    Chris Clayton New Member

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    I believe you must have missed the parts of the video that showed them shooting at the vehicle with 5 then 4 people in it? What would you be saying if one of those bullets that hit the truck would have went thru the mans head and killed him? There was just no way for them to be sure that no one in that car would not get hit and die from all those shots they took at it before it came to a stop!>>>>There were perfectly innocent bystanders in the truck that included a female that was only there that day because she had been ask to come entertain by singing some songs. It could have been her that died that day if she had not fell down in the floor of the truck to avoid being shot in the head!
    This proves they wanted him dead. One way or another! >>>>>>>>>>>What do you say to that?
     
  23. Chris Clayton

    Chris Clayton New Member

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    You forgot to mention the shots they fired at the truck before then. There were 5 people in the truck to begin with but before they were even near the road block they were fired on, enough that when they stopped the man in the passenger front seat exited the truck and surrendered.
    And there is no way they could guarantee none of those bullets would strike the innocent female that was only there to sing for entertainment that day. They could have shot her in the head! What would they have said about that?
    Probably would have tried to say she was armed and dangerous too, huh?
     
  24. Chris Clayton

    Chris Clayton New Member

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    "The big controversy at present is those 2 shots by the FBI, at a moment when Finicum was not an obvious threat to anyone, and the subequent denial that those shots were made."

    Exactly! I don't know how they could dispute them when i witnessed the shots hitting them. long before they even approached the road block! That's when someone exited the truck.
     
  25. MikeG

    MikeG Active Member

    The truck was heading straight for the roadblock. It was reasonable for law enforcement to see that action as a threat.

    The officers on the scene did not have a way of measuring the intent or the innocence of each individual passenger. In reality, they were focused on the entire vehicle as it came toward them.

    The previous weeks of belligerence coming out of Finicum and his supporters established intent long before this incident.

    As far as the FBI agents, they are going to be investigated accordingly for their actions.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national...r-oregon-occupation-lavoy-finicum-fbi/474219/

    I would be curious to see what the investigation turns up.
     
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  26. occams rusty scissor

    occams rusty scissor Active Member

    No, but that's not relevant - the original post was regarding Finicum reaching under his clothing.

    Maybe don't ride in trucks with armed militants? To be honest, they decided to take that risk getting into the vehicle with people whom they knew were armed and had expressed desire to take on the government. It wouldn't justify them being shot as such, but we all make choices...


    It doesn't prove anything other than they disobeyed very obvious direction to stop, and drove at a police road block causing the police to respond to that. It's a self explanatory situation, really.
     
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