Conspiracy Theories, Bad Reporting, Bunk, and the Malheur Militia Incident in Burns, Oregon

JRBids said:
They're even asking "why" the officer he almost ran down jumped in front of the car, and claim Finicom was ambushed by the one who came out of the woods. As if anyone knew exactly where he would skid out out that he would run. They're typical truthers. Like 911 truthers who think charges were placed in the wtc atty the exact floors the planes hit.
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I'd be surprised if there weren't multiple agents in the trees
on both sides of the roadblock, in the event Finicum tried to run for it.
Authorities would be crucified if he somehow got away at that point.
 
Finicum is pictured in the media with an under arm holster on his left side.

4ba5ebafe8e541bd61adb94b4aa2a15f.jpg


The video, at least to mine and many other commentators' eyes, shows Finicum reaching suddenly for something on his left side. Police didn't need much more than that to shoot him.

However, if you need more reasonable evidence of a threat - He stated his death wish numerous times to the press, was known to be armed, had a preference for left side holsters at least some of the time and had already evaded arrest and endangered many lives by driving off.

On the military installation I work on, he'd have been shot to pieces just for pulling off. But these officers showed restraint not turning the car into swiss cheese.
 
im hoping recorded audio from the event will be released to help confirm how it panned out

FBI version

http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/01/28/FBI statement.pdf

External Quote:
As the white truck approaches the roadblock, there is a spike strip across the road but it appears Finicum missed it as he attempted to drive around the roadblock. He nearly hits an FBI agent as he maneuvers to the left. The truck gets stuck in the snowbank. Finicum leaves the truck and steps through the snow. Agents and troopers on scene had information that Finicum and others would be armed. On at least two occasions, Finicum reaches his right hand toward a pocket on the left inside portion of his jacket. He did have a loaded 9 mm semi-automatic handgun in that pocket

At this time, OSP troopers shot Finicum. Approximately 30 seconds after the shooting -- law enforcement officers at the scene deployed flash bangs to disorient any other armed occupants. Shortly after that, they deployed less-lethal sponge projectiles with OC capsules. Those OC capsules would be similar to pepper spray. Over a period of several minutes agents and troopers worked to safely remove the remaining truck occupants, and to take them into custody. Those people included: *Ryan Bundy *Shawna Cox *And another woman, who was not arrested and will not be named As soon as the agents and troopers were confident that they had addressed any further threats, they provided medical assistance to Finicum. That happened about 10 minutes after the shooting. Agents and troopers did find 3 other loaded weapons inside the truck. They included two loaded . 223 caliber semi-automatic rifles. There was also one loaded .38 special revolver.
 
So more than one Officer shot him? It would be interesting to see how many times he was shot and where. Although it does look TO ME as if he is reaching for something and not reacting to being hit, it would be easy for someone to believe otherwise unless he was simply not shot in that area.
 
JRBids said:
They're even asking "why" the officer he almost ran down jumped in front of the car, and claim Finicom was ambushed by the one who came out of the woods. As if anyone knew exactly where he would skid out out that he would run. They're typical truthers. Like 911 truthers who think charges were placed in the wtc atty the exact floors the planes hit.
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My perception was that the guy was standing behind a very large truck and he probably thought Finicum was going to ram right into it, he was running out of the way I'm sure...he just ran the wrong way lol poor guy
 
Efftup said:
So more than one Officer shot him? It would be interesting to see how many times he was shot and where. Although it does look TO ME as if he is reaching for something and not reacting to being hit, it would be easy for someone to believe otherwise unless he was simply not shot in that area.
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yeah, it looks to me like he may have been shot as he was facing the road (i.e. before the fatal shot where he falls over) - from the video he seems to do a unnatural movement, almost like a little hop, he then turns and seems to reach for his gun

but I suppose the autopsy would clear it up

but it does seem to be a case of "suicide by cop"
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-oregon-militia-surrender-idUSKCN0VK20Y

External Quote:
Three of the last four armed protesters occupying a national wildlife refuge in Oregon surrendered on Thursday, but the final holdout vowed to remain holed up until "my grievances are heard."
Anyone know who's the last man standing?

ETA: It's David Fry, as I thought.

Live stream broadcasting mediators trying to talk him out, he says he's ready to suicide.

 
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Interesting use of live youtube.
However, I don't think it helped strengthen their cause to the general public, or to gather future followers.
It may sound satisfying to those who already support their cause, but to most people.....they sounded unreasonable.

External Quote:
The standoff played out for hours through an open phone line being streamed to YouTube. At one point, an estimated 60,000 people listened as the occupiers displayed anger and panic, prayed with those on the phone and yelled at the FBI agents surrounding them.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/oregon_standoff_fbi_moves_in_o.html
"This is the call that was rebroadcast live from the refuge on 02/10/16"
(foul language warning)
 
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I feel a little bad saying it, but perhaps the disastrous consequences of this ill-conceived plan will lessen the likelihood of a similar attempt...I think they set their cause back considerably:

A) One "rebel" dead (Finicum...on film, reaching for a weapon...which most folks see)
B) Many "rebels" facing trials and prison time
C) Felony convictions = No more (legal) guns :( [18 U.S.C. § 922(g)]
D) Public opinion (mostly) does not rally to their cause...
E) David Fry's closing rambling about Obama, cookies, UFOs, and human mutants hurts "credibility" of occupiers
F) Cliven Bundy! Authorities could've never predicted that getting CB in an easy-to-arrest situation would've been one of the silver linings of this ridiculous situation. Huge bonus!!
(finally addressing the "There were no consequences for the 2014 law-breaking, which only emboldens this kind of activity" argument)



ETA: C)...courtesy of deirdre
 
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NoParty said:
I feel a little bad saying it, but perhaps the disastrous consequences of this ill-conceived plan will lessen the likelihood of a similar attempt...I think they set their cause back considerably:

A) One "rebel" dead (Finicum...on film, reaching for a weapon...which most folks see)
B) Many "rebels" facing trials and prison time
C) Public opinion (mostly) does not rally to their cause...
D) David Fry's closing rambling about Obama, cookies, UFOs, and human mutants hurts "credibility" of occupiers
E) HUGE bonus: Feds nab Cliven Bundy out of nowhere!
(finally addressing the "There were no consequences for the 2014 law-breaking, which only emboldens this kind of activity" argument)
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Plus, unless i'm mistaken, a felony conviction means you just lost your right to own a gun for the rest of your life. That's gotta hurt.
 
deirdre said:
Plus, unless i'm mistaken, a felony conviction means you just lost your right to own a gun for the rest of your life. That's gotta hurt.
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That's right...though I imagine a lawyer might know of a loophole, and wouldn't we expect
some of these folks to illegally acquire guns anyway, just hoping they didn't get caught?

http://www.ncids.org/Defender Training/2004 New Felony Defender Training/Federal Consequences.pdf

At any rate, great point deirdre, I'm going to tack it on the list... :p
 
NoParty said:
and wouldn't we expect
some of these folks to illegally acquire guns anyway, just hoping they didn't get caught?
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Noone even thought to check if PeaPod or Walmart delivers way out there, before they holed up for months in the middle of the winter with no food supplies (i still can not believe this liberal government let supplies get delivered). Chances are good they'd get caught.
 
Something else the Malheur Militiamen didn't anticipate is the derision they received from very experienced military veterans. Especially the "door kickers" or operator types that these guys try so hard to emulate. Politically many veterans may actually vote in the same direction as the protesters, but having seen combat and been in pretty gnarly places a great deal of commentary from these sources is derisive. Here's a typical example from oafnation.com:

http://www.oafnation.com/hitter-feed/2016/2/15/oregon-standoff-send-snacks-please

External Quote:
I've observed that a gross majority of the "militia" who seek publicity are made up of has-been's and never-were's. You have a bunch of grown men that never joined or had lackluster careers and want to play soldier. They live in this fantasy realm where they sit around and shoot with like-minded idiots and discuss tactics for the day they have to fight the U.S. government. They hide behind the concepts of constitutional liberty and claim to be fighting for the common man. I'm here to tell you, stop. If the day comes, the common man will fight for himself, thanks.
The community these occupiers admire think they are idiots. Hopefully it hinders there confidence in future 'operations'.
 
There quiet a few bangs and cracks just before & after car stops and then in the after math. I counted 3 pistol shots for Lavoys suicide by law.. The bangs and cracks i believe are non lethal pepper gas or personal subdue ammo. They did not from my best understanding fire live lethal rounds at car.
 
well i was wrong, seems some one did shoot at the truck

entry.PNG



tho this looks like an exit hole ? so far unexplained



External Quote:
As they looked into how many shots were fired during the confrontation and by whom, the investigators found a round in the roof of Finicum's truck.
"We could not explain the fourth shot into the roof of the truck, or its trajectory given the placement of the Oregon State Police troopers at the time,"
http://katu.com/news/local/fbi-agents-investigated-over-shots-fired-during-standoff

lavoy.PNG




http://katu.com/news/local/a-look-at-the-weapons-found-inside-finicums-truck

External Quote:
A lot has been made about the handgun authorities said LaVoy Finicum had in his pocket when Oregon State Police troopers shot and killed him. But what hasn't gotten a lot of notice is some of the other weapons investigators say they recovered from inside his pickup truck.
 
derwoodii said:
There quiet a few bangs and cracks just before & after car stops and then in the after math. I counted 3 pistol shots for Lavoys suicide by law.. The bangs and cracks i believe are non lethal pepper gas or personal subdue ammo. They did not from my best understanding fire live lethal rounds at car.
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It is quite hard to tell from the video, but being objective, those inside the vehicle would probably found it difficult to discern the difference, and from a tactical point of view, quite difficult to induce people into surrendering if you are simultaneously shooting at them.

To be clear, these people brought it upon themselves and were given multiple opportunities to resolve this peacefully over the whole event, and during the first stop, but its hard to comply with people shouting and shooting at you at the same time.
 
I found this long article in the Washington Post today.

Primed to Fight.png
External Quote:
Those in the movement call themselves patriots, demanding that the federal government adhere to the Constitution and stop what they see as systematic abuse of land rights, gun rights, freedom of speech and other liberties.

Law enforcement officials call them dangerous, delusional and sometimes violent, and say that their numbers are growing amid a wave of anger at the government that has been gaining strength since 2008, a surge that coincided with the election of the first black U.S. president and a crippling economic recession.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/na...-main_constitutionalguard908pm:homepage/story

The article gave an interesting perspective on the scale of the movement.

External Quote:
Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors extremism, said there were about 150 such groups in 2008 and about 1,000 now. Potok and other analysts, including law enforcement officials who track the groups, said their supporters number in the hundreds of thousands, counting people who signal their support in more passive ways, such as following the groups on social media. The Facebook page of the Oath Keepers, a group of former members of police forces and the military, for example, has more than 525,000 "likes."
 
MikeG said:
External Quote:
Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors extremism, said there were about 150 such groups in 2008 and about 1,000 now. ...
Click to expand...

This is somewhat deceptive reporting on the part of the Washington Post. They're implying that all 1000 groups are "anti-government extremists, militias, armed militants or even domestic terrorists". But SPLC's own page doesn't even say this:

External Quote:
Of these [998] groups, 276 were militias marked with an asterisk, and the remainder include "common-law" courts, publishers, ministries, and citizens' groups. ... Listing here foes not imply that the groups themselves advocate or engage in violence or other criminal activities, or are racist.
SPLC also has a reputation (earned, in my opinion) of inflating their lists with nonviolent libertarian or conservative organizations, as well as listing every local chapter of a national organization as if it were a separate group (e.g., Oath Keepers alone is 185 out of the 998 groups listed).
 
Bill Statler said:
This is somewhat deceptive reporting on the part of the Washington Post. They're implying that all 1000 groups are "anti-government extremists, militias, armed militants or even domestic terrorists". But SPLC's own page doesn't even say this:

External Quote:
Of these [998] groups, 276 were militias marked with an asterisk, and the remainder include "common-law" courts, publishers, ministries, and citizens' groups. ... Listing here foes not imply that the groups themselves advocate or engage in violence or other criminal activities, or are racist.
SPLC also has a reputation (earned, in my opinion) of inflating their lists with nonviolent libertarian or conservative organizations, as well as listing every local chapter of a national organization as if it were a separate group (e.g., Oath Keepers alone is 185 out of the 998 groups listed).
Click to expand...

Good call Bill.

It is important not to conflate groups. I thought the chart that was included on the SPLC was good. "Militia" groups have grown, although they don't appear to have reach the same level as the late nineties. Still, the number has increased pretty substantially since 2008.

I am going to look at some alternate sources, probably the FBI, to see if these numbers are reliable.

patriot-chart-line_chart_militia.png
 
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