Claim: Giant fast Underwater Disc, Bigger than an Oil Rig

[Ravi]

Wasn't the Alcubierre drive more of an idea for in space? I mean, vacuum, no mass? Why would it work in water? Mysterious explanations from Lue..

 

[FatPhil]

Elizondo (and Mick) are referring to an Alcubierre drive, a very theoretical means of transportation that warps spacetime itself to move an object by contracting spacetime in front and expanding it behind. It is perfect for people who want to believe because it is theoretically possible (again stressing theoretical), but doesn't have a concrete concept yet. So it's basically unfalsifiable, while at the same time, the believer can give it any properties they need it to fit. As you said, "magic"

Is it "theoretical", or is it "completely fictional"? It requires negative mass-energy, which is something that doesn't exist. "Ghost-powered" is *exactly* as theoretical as alcubierre drives.

 

[JMartJr]

Why would you engage a warp drive at such a slow speed?

To move the water out of the way?

Which brings up a question -- WOULD such a drive move water out of the way? If what it does is

contracting spacetime in front and expanding it behind.

would that not just squish the water in front, return it to normal inside, then stretch it behind the craft? In which case the vehicle has to move through the water inside the "bubble," I'd think.

 

[FatPhil]

To move the water out of the way?

Which brings up a question -- WOULD such a drive move water out of the way? If what it does is

would that not just squish the water in front, return it to normal inside, then stretch it behind the craft? In which case the vehicle has to move through the water inside the "bubble," I'd think.

We don't know how the negative mass-energy matter interacts with normal matter, we literally can't say anything about the situation.

 

[JMartJr]

We don't know how the negative mass-energy matter interacts with normal matter, we literally can't say anything about the situation.

Sigh... and therefore, of course, it can be claimed that it does ANYTHING without possibility of refutation.

 

[Ravi]

Sigh... and therefore, of course, it can be claimed that it does ANYTHING without possibility of refutation.

Yup, just use some magic in your stories, gives you some handy dandy leeway.

 

[Domzh]

I think he is suggesting that it uses a warp bubble to be able to move fast underwater with no acoustic signature.

even if, wouldnt this cause a vacuum behind the object travelling so fast with such a massive volume? wouldnt there be a sound signature if the water fills this void again?

 

[FatPhil]

even if, wouldnt this cause a vacuum behind the object travelling so fast with such a massive volume? wouldnt there be a sound signature if the water fills this void again?

Warp isn't motion of the water, it's motion of the spacetime that water occupies. This is a topological solution to a problem framed purely topologically, there's no reason to think that extreme corner-case mathematical solutions have any relation to reality. Extreme corner cases (e.g. very small, very fast, very massive for classical mechanics) are normally where we find our simplistic models break down. Pretending that GR will be free from such weaknesses is just wishful thinking. And pretending that we know anything about negative mass-energies is an even more egregious leap. Don't get me wrong, these things are worked on by really smart mathematicians, but they haven't crossed Popper's bridge to falsifiable physics yet.

 

[Domzh]

Warp isn't motion of the water, it's motion of the spacetime that water occupies. This is a topological solution to a problem framed purely topologically, there's no reason to think that extreme corner-case mathematical solutions have any relation to reality. Extreme corner cases (e.g. very small, very fast, very massive for classical mechanics) are normally where we find our simplistic models break down. Pretending that GR will be free from such weaknesses is just wishful thinking. And pretending that we know anything about negative mass-energies is an even more egregious leap. Don't get me wrong, these things are worked on by really smart mathematicians, but they haven't crossed Popper's bridge to falsifiable physics yet.

ah ok i assumed it just warps the water around it to not have any friction.

but in the case you described, how would that object be clearly visible to an observer if it warps spacetime around it? im sure this must look awkward as hell and not clearly defined at all

 

[FatPhil]

ah ok i assumed it just warps the water around it to not have any friction.

but in the case you described, how would that object be clearly visible to an observer if it warps spacetime around it? im sure this must look awkward as hell and not clearly defined at all

To expect anything less wierd than what black holes do to the straight lines (geodesics) that photons travel in would require special pleading.

 

[yoshy]

Is it "theoretical", or is it "completely fictional"? It requires negative mass-energy, which is something that doesn't exist.

Not necessarily negative matter. From wikipedia:

In 2021, physicist Erik Lentz described a way warp drives sourced from known and familiar purely positive energy could exist—warp bubbles based on superluminal self-reinforcing "soliton" waves.[34]​[35]​[36]​[37]​[38]​ The claim is controversial, with other physicists arguing that all physically reasonable warp drives violate the weak energy condition, as well as both the strong and dominant energy conditions.[39]​

I included that second sentence because I don't want to make it seem like I think it's realistic. It's not at all.

To move the water out of the way?

Which brings up a question -- WOULD such a drive move water out of the way? If what it does is

would that not just squish the water in front, return it to normal inside, then stretch it behind the craft? In which case the vehicle has to move through the water inside the "bubble," I'd think.

The warp drive would move the water around it without actually interacting with the water. The drive warps spacetime itself like how matter warps spacetime (i.e. gravity). Even still, some particles will get trapped in the bubble along the way and you'll end up with a cosmic death ray at the end:

Damaging effect on destination

[edit source]
Brendan McMonigal, Geraint F. Lewis, and Philip O'Byrne have argued that were an Alcubierre-driven ship to decelerate from superluminal speed, the particles that its bubble had gathered in transit would be released in energetic outbursts akin to the infinitely-blueshifted radiation hypothesized to occur at the inner event horizon of a Kerr black hole; forward-facing particles would thereby be energetic enough to destroy anything at the destination directly in front of the ship.[40]​[41]​

Wiki again. That article is phenomenal.

 

[FatPhil]

Not necessarily negative matter. From wikipedia:

In 2021, physicist Erik Lentz described a way warp drives sourced from known and familiar purely positive energy could exist—warp bubbles based on superluminal self-reinforcing "soliton" waves.

I included that second sentence because I don't want to make it seem like I think it's realistic. It's not at all.

I know that beyond infinite temperature is negative temperature. Beyond the infinite energy of mass travelling at light speed, do you reach negative energy?

 

[yoshy]

I know that beyond infinite temperature is negative temperature. Beyond the infinite energy of mass travelling at light speed, do you reach negative energy?

I'm not sure if there is a real world, physical answer to this, tbh. We can see how the math gets weird easily:

Energy-momentum relation where E=energy, p=momentum, and c=speed of light. (Simplifies to the famous E=mc^2)

p=γmu where u is velocity and

Let's say v = 1.1c so we end up with
p = -(1/√0.1) i

Thus, momentum has an imaginary component which is not really physically interpretable in our usual frameworks.

In any case, since an Alcubierre drive warps spacetime, no matter is actually traveling faster than c, so the above isn't necessarily relevant.

(@Mick West is there a way to write equations with LaTex or similar?)

 

[Ravi]

Math is a way to describe real world physics.
However, math can also be used to predict physical phenomena or other effects. But, it does not then automatically mean that if you have made a clever mathematical solution, that it therefore must exist.
This is also how I look at the equations used by Alcubierre: fine on paper, but it does not mean it must exist.

 

[manxmac]

Does anyone have a theory on what was travelling at 500 knots under the water that's was bigger in size than the rig platform he describes.
What could they have witnessed that would fit this description of the people their, or is it possible his imagination
Cheers

 

[elvenwear]

Does anyone have a theory on what was travelling at 500 knots under the water that's was bigger in size than the rig platform he describes.
What could they have witnessed that would fit this description of the people their, or is it possible his imagination
Cheers

Not me. A quick google search of the fastest submarines and fastest aquatic animals gets nothing close to this speed.

 

[JMartJr]

I don't think anything can fit that description. A number of things might give the illusion of fitting it, several have been mentioned in the several threads touching on Mr. Elizondo and his book -- the shadow of a plane, something actually smaller and closer to the camera than assumed (this is extremely common) and the like. But without the video to look at, if it exists, there is no way to figure out what it shows. If Mr Elizondo wishes to use this video as evidence, he needs to place it in evidence! Until/unless he does that, it's just a story that cannot be disproven, nor can it prove anything.

 

[manxmac]

Not me. A quick google search of the fastest submarines and fastest aquatic animals gets nothing close to this speed.

I know, most of us have seen weird anomalies but this thing sounds like captain kirks ship. I for one would love for their to be irrefutable proof of uaps full of an alien race, and it could happen.
Has anyone looked at the anomalies on the satellite weather sites, some very strange events

 

[JMartJr]

Has anyone looked at the anomalies on the satellite weather sites, some very strange events

Feel free to pick out a good one and start a thread for it mentioning what is claimed about it! Sounds interesting. (I half recall a discussion of roost rings on here somewhere but can't go look for it now as we are about to get hammered by a thunderstorm (not an anomalous one as far as I can tell) so I'm powerungbdown electronics and going to yell for the cat to come in!

 

[Ann K]

Does anyone have a theory on what was travelling at 500 knots under the water that's was bigger in size than the rig platform he describes.
What could they have witnessed that would fit this description of the people their, or is it possible his imagination
Cheers

As to size, the shadow cast by a cloud has been mentioned. A large school of fish might also be possible. But witnesses of anomalies have shown themselves to be singularly poor at estimating speeds.

 

[elvenwear]

A number of things might give the illusion of fitting it ... the shadow of a plane, something actually smaller and closer to the camera than assumed.

This is a good point. Shadows are also subject to parallax illusions.

Ultimately, you are right. Without the evidence to analyse, there is nothing to really investigate.

 

[Mick West]

(@Mick West is there a way to write equations with LaTex or similar?)

[LATEX]c=\sqrt{a^2+b^2}[/LATEX]

\[c=\sqrt{a^2+b^2}\]

 

[Mordrenix]

At minute 36:45, Elizondo mentions the city of Bariloche as if it were in Las Lajas—which is close to where the Chinese deep space base is located and where he was filming with the History Channel—when in reality the two places are 300 km apart and in different provinces. Bariloche has no relevance in this context, and it makes no sense for him to mention it. He does not know where he was, and I do not think he would be able to point out the places he visited on a map.

 

[Mick West]

This came up again recently with Lenval Logan describing it and saying that analysts told him it was the "shadow of the moon". Obviously, that does not refer to the actual shadow of the moon (which would mean you are in a solar eclipse and is only visible from space). But oddly, he took that as what it meant and decided they were messing with him.


Source: https://youtu.be/ffPDbL0yBRI?t=8056

@ 2:14:30 — the video, the platform, the depth, THE KEY GEOMETRY

"there was a video that we got in. It's full color 4K. Okay, it's a beautiful video because you can see the ocean and everything. You know, so someone's looking at an oil rig, and they're just staring at an oil rig and looking at the areas around it. And he pans the camera, and all of a sudden you see the camera jump back, and there is something in the water. I told Vito about this. This is under the water. It's under the water. It's like five to 10 feet. You can see it from overhead, but you can't. I think if you were at the same level, you wouldn't see it or anything like that. But you can see it from from overhead because from a airborne platform"

@ 2:15:13 (host) — the contrast cue

"Because the rest of the water is a constant color, and you're seeing something. What shape was it?"

@ 2:15:18 — shape and speed

"you look and you see a disc. What looks like a disc under the water, and it's cruising. It's cruising hard, all right. Couple 100 knots in the water"

@ 2:15:36 — SCALE

"he's trying to look at the oil rig and trying to jump back… So then all of a sudden he pans out, and we see the whole thing, and the disc is bigger than the oil rig"

@ 2:16:10 — identification + Elizondo

"I think the first person I saw talked to was, was Lou. And I said, I think I just found your island … 'You got to come by my office. I think I just found Fravor's Island'… And he comes over and we're looking and we're just staring"

@ 2:17:26–2:17:28 — the RAINBOW (note: he imports it from Phoenix Lights)

"Remember when they talk about at the Phoenix Lights? All the people that saw it really close up, they said there was this rainbow thing coming off the back." … "It had this rainbow thing coming off the back of it, and it was just going through the water"

@ 2:17:28 — the exclusion

"we couldn't put it to anything. We're like, dude, this is not a test vehicle. This is not an observation platform. This is the vis-rec is gone."

@ 2:17:46 — framing

"he's looking at the [rig]. Then he looks at it. Looks at the rig. Looks at it. Then he zooms out, and you got them both in the same picture."

@ 2:18:31 — status

"we don't know what this thing is… this was the first visual evidence, and I was so excited"

@ 2:18:55 — DURATION

"It was quite a few minutes."

@ 2:50:51 — THE ASSESSMENT AND ITS REJECTION

"When I saw the disc in the water, right? Everybody looked at it. Was like, 'What's that weird rainbow shit coming off the back? What is this? How big is this thing? Whoa! How's it going that fast?'… So, I sent it to an organization because I wanted some help… And they came back, and they legitimately, no, no, no humor whatsoever. They actually told me that what I was looking at was the shadow of the moon moving across the face of the earth, and I called up Jay Stratton and I said, 'Hey, you know this organization that you were connected to, and you told me to use'… I said, 'Permission to treat them as hostile because I'm pissed'… Because everybody that looked at it, you could clearly see. Shadows don't give off rainbow shit. All right, shadows don't act like that. The shadow of the moon is much larger going across the face. … I was like, if they're just gonna boldly lie to us like that, then they're either they've been told not to say anything, or the person's a junior doesn't know what the hell he's doing."

I googled "shadow of the moon on water", and what came back were reflections of the moon:

So I made a sitrec of the reflection of the moon on water, zoomed in from a moving aircraft as the aircraft watches an oil rig. Parallax is quite strong.

https://local.metabunk.org/sitrec/?custom=1/Shadow of the Moon/20260819_162740.js

Now this proves nothing, but it seems like a viable hypothesis.
https://www.metabunk.org/sitrec/?custom=1/Shadow of the Moon/20260819_061627.js

 

[Mick West]

So I made a sitrec of the reflection of the moon on water, zoomed in from a moving aircraft as the aircraft watches an oil rig. Parallax is quite strong.

The geometry works out, but I'm not really sure if the reflection is viable as a clear-enough disc. I think it would require an unusually calm ocean. More work needed!