Greene
Active Member
Sure, but it's not like there's a lot out there to sift through. The sayings used by Trannspeople I know are essentially just positive affirmations. "I am enough" and so on.
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Charlie Kirk Shooting
- Thread starter Mick West
- Start date
Sure, but it's not like there's a lot out there to sift through. The sayings used by Trannspeople I know are essentially just positive affirmations. "I am enough" and so on.
Tim Blevins
Member
Searching eBay completed listings for "Land Of The Free Home Of The Brave Long Sleeve" (I don't know if these are the optimal search terms, but it's what google search autocompleted for me, and is returning many eBay auctions, completed and active) I am receiving 65 results dating back to 7-5-2025. From what I can tell, they are all matches for the suspect's shirt, except for seven. However, there were zero sales until today. Today, 53 have sold!
Edit: changing search to "Land Of The Free shirt" returns 392 completed listings. Going back to 6-14-2025. These search terms return short sleeve shirts, as well as long. And a rare, similar, white alternate. Appears to be a Disabled Veterans National Foundation shirt. This new search now reveals that today so far the number of shirts sold that resemble the suspect's is 137!
Unfortunately, only two documented sales before today, and they are both short sleeve. Reexamining the pictures of the suspect, it does appear he is wearing only one, long sleeve shirt. (And also a backpack. Which hasn't been mentioned, as far as I am aware.)
Edit: From the new batch of four pictures released on the suspect it looks as if suspect is wearing two layers on top, and his exterior shirt is short sleeved. In that case I suggest investigating the two short sleeve shirt sales on eBay from the past few months. I have been trying to submit an electronic tip form and call the FBI for the last three hours unsuccessfully. "Error during submission", and no automated response, respectively.
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Mendel
Senior Member.
Article: A rifle recovered in the hunt for conservative influencer Charlie Kirk's assassin contained ammo engraved with "transgender and anti-fascist ideology," according to preliminary reports from law enforcement sources.
The weapon — an imported .30-06-caliber Mauser bolt-action rifle — was discovered wrapped in a towel by investigators in a wooded area
A source familiar noted that the Justice Department is investigating the descriptions alleged in the ATF memo, but that the agency was unable to confirm that the description matched the evidence recovered at the scene.
The problem I'm seeing is that "transgender ideology" is essentially "equal rights", and antifascist ideology is "Nazis are bad", and Kirk would essentially be seen as one by the shooter, so that's no surprise there. It's kinda hard to attach it to a specific movement, even if the unconfirmed report turns out to be correct.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
Unless the motive was something else entirely. We don't know that yet.
FatPhil
Senior Member.
"Non-factual" is not the opposite of "facts". "Falsities" is the opposite of "facts", "non-factual" is the opposite of "factual". Things that are factual may be falsities, as has been discussed here before. "Factuality" is the type of the information - presentation as a statement of fact rather than a statement of opinion - not an indicator of its truth.
"2+2=5" is a false factual statement. "Marmite is tasty" is a true non-factual statement.
deirdre
Senior Member
FatPhil
Senior Member.
This is why I think the list of edgy Kirk quotes does have a place in this thread, as it concretises the very broad range of people whom he may have offended, so as to inform us not to jump to any early conclusions about from which group the shooter may have been an extremist.
deirdre
Senior Member
it also may be someone he didn't offend at all. and the alleged bullets are a decoy.
the Sandy Hook kids didn't offend anyone. The kids in the latest church shooting, where the kid idolized allegedly Lanza the SH shooter, didnt offend anyone. Maybe this kid just wanted to murder someone/get fame like Crooks (the trump ear shooter) and Kirk was the closest thing to come to his neighborhood.
Greene
Active Member
An antifascist's definition of Nazi isn't necessarily consistent with a more mainstream definition of the same.
Transgender idealogy certainly isn't a term that would be used within the transgender community at all. Transgender women participation in women's sports or the use of puberty blockers for adolescents are arguably the two biggest talking points for the right, coupled with a general feeling that some non-transgender children are being pressured to believe they are transgender.
My guess is that if there really are some sort of writing on the shell casings or the rifle, that they'll end up being something banal and induce sighs at how they were characterized. "Love is Love!"
Greene
Active Member
The initial postspecifically called out the use of opinions despite their being none given. Thus the word choice in the reply was deliberate in keeping within that same line of discussion.
Thank you for the clarification.
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Tim Blevins
Member
Edited for: Post breaks the Link Policy - Needs more info from the link
Claim: shooter must have been a pro.
"Charlie Kirk's assassin not necessarily an expert marksman, former ATF agents say.
The weaponry available today would allow someone with even limited firearms experience to pull off such a hit, multiple gun experts said.
"A person with minimal training and a scope would be able to easily hit a small target at 200 yards," said Scott Sweetow, a retired executive with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Trained police and military snipers are able to hit targets in the head from more than 500 yards away, Sweetow and other experts said.
David Hyche, a former ATF agent, said he had been surprised to hear that the shooter left the roof with the gun rather than leave it behind.
"That's not smart," Hyche said. "It's hard to get away carrying a rifle."
The trace of the gun is going to be vital, Hyche added. That is, if it still has a serial number and if it can be traced to the original buyer.
A trained professional would most likely have used a gun that was untraceable, Hyche said.
"If he had a clean gun, wore gloves, no serial number and just left it there — that's not really going to help law enforcement a lot," added Hyche, who is now the chief of police in Calera, Alabama. "And that's what I think a pro would have done."
Jim Cavanaugh, a retired ATF agent, said the impact the bullet made to Kirk's neck indicates it was a large-caliber round.
"This is something that gets used to kill a deer or an elk," said Cavanaugh, who is an MSNBC analyst.
But he agreed that the shooter most likely did not have extensive training.
"You've got a scope, a good rifle, you don't have to have any great talent," Cavanaugh said. "The equipment gives you the advantage."
David Viola, a Navy officer who has deployed overseas multiple times with various SEAL teams, said a successful shot from that distance suggests that the gunman had at least some experience with firearms.
"It wasn't a particularly long shot," said Viola, an adjunct professor at John Jay College's Center on Terrorism. "But he didn't pick up a rifle for the first time yesterday."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...pert-marksman-former-atf-agents-sa-rcna230564
Claim: ammunition markings "expressing transgender and anti-fascist ideology"
"The ATF bulletin said that agents found engravings that they interpreted as "expressing transgender and anti-fascist ideology" on ammunition inside a weapon believed to have been used in the murder of Kirk.
Two law enforcement sources told CNN that agents quickly ran an initial search on one of the markings, including a series of arrows, which analysts initially interpreted to be a connection to the transgender community. That information remains unverified and is still being investigated."
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/charlie-kirk-shot-utah-death-09-11-25#cmffuxfs800003b6tpgkbk78c
Claim: shooter must have been a pro.
"Charlie Kirk's assassin not necessarily an expert marksman, former ATF agents say.
The weaponry available today would allow someone with even limited firearms experience to pull off such a hit, multiple gun experts said.
"A person with minimal training and a scope would be able to easily hit a small target at 200 yards," said Scott Sweetow, a retired executive with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Trained police and military snipers are able to hit targets in the head from more than 500 yards away, Sweetow and other experts said.
David Hyche, a former ATF agent, said he had been surprised to hear that the shooter left the roof with the gun rather than leave it behind.
"That's not smart," Hyche said. "It's hard to get away carrying a rifle."
The trace of the gun is going to be vital, Hyche added. That is, if it still has a serial number and if it can be traced to the original buyer.
A trained professional would most likely have used a gun that was untraceable, Hyche said.
"If he had a clean gun, wore gloves, no serial number and just left it there — that's not really going to help law enforcement a lot," added Hyche, who is now the chief of police in Calera, Alabama. "And that's what I think a pro would have done."
Jim Cavanaugh, a retired ATF agent, said the impact the bullet made to Kirk's neck indicates it was a large-caliber round.
"This is something that gets used to kill a deer or an elk," said Cavanaugh, who is an MSNBC analyst.
But he agreed that the shooter most likely did not have extensive training.
"You've got a scope, a good rifle, you don't have to have any great talent," Cavanaugh said. "The equipment gives you the advantage."
David Viola, a Navy officer who has deployed overseas multiple times with various SEAL teams, said a successful shot from that distance suggests that the gunman had at least some experience with firearms.
"It wasn't a particularly long shot," said Viola, an adjunct professor at John Jay College's Center on Terrorism. "But he didn't pick up a rifle for the first time yesterday."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...pert-marksman-former-atf-agents-sa-rcna230564
Claim: ammunition markings "expressing transgender and anti-fascist ideology"
"The ATF bulletin said that agents found engravings that they interpreted as "expressing transgender and anti-fascist ideology" on ammunition inside a weapon believed to have been used in the murder of Kirk.
Two law enforcement sources told CNN that agents quickly ran an initial search on one of the markings, including a series of arrows, which analysts initially interpreted to be a connection to the transgender community. That information remains unverified and is still being investigated."
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/charlie-kirk-shot-utah-death-09-11-25#cmffuxfs800003b6tpgkbk78c
Qualiall
Member
I was thinking that too. But also more generally, these are not some conspiracy (in the legal sense) where two or more people plan these out. It's more stochasic. 350 million people-some of which are spouse beaters, murderers, menally unstable and so on. Sure maybe one can blame "rhetoric" from the right or left for their inspiration, and maybe that's true-maybe people beat their wives because of "red pill" ideology or manosphere podcasts or the Bible or, or, or..-but men are also victims of abuse-probably same rate as women so it isn't always as clear and clean as we like.
So I guess my point is that even if the shooter was a "leftie" or a "rightie" making it look like he was a "leftie"-then what? Ban all discourse? Declare one political ideology as domestic terrorists?
Greene
Active Member
Out of the various individuals quotes, I'd argue this one is the most spot on.
Tezcatlipoca
Senior Member.
There is an actual affective purpose in classifying these things. An unfortunate reality is no one becomes an extremist just, out of the silo. Things like rhetoric always have an impact. Whether you ban any specific discourse is more of an extreme countermeasure.
Just as the most glaring example though. People had a really hard time digesting the new Nihilistic Violent Extremist tag. In fact, the very first responses I saw to this from actual dedicated counter extremist researchers was that it was the Trump admin ghosting the REMVE term and stopping that work. That was in fact false and they just had a really hard time digesting that not every extremist is a right wing neo-nazi.
I'll also give a specific example of why categorizing and understanding these specific organizations and actors is important. The example being the "Zizians". Contrary to popular reporting, no! They are not "trans" or "vegan" extremists, this was a tag that was falsely created by right wing talking heads in the same grain as the above issue. In reality they were rationalist-accelerationists (rationalist the movement not literal term). What people were getting wrong was simply the fact the 'members' were largely vegan and trans. If we actually go into content from people in the group though, it's very easily observable that a) the trans and vegan subjects are brought up very little, b) when the trans and vegan subjects are brought up, it is not a core part of their ideology at all and c) when it does present, it is in fact formed as self-hatred, rather than any sort of supremacist point.
Now, what is the truth there? Out of the entire network, about 3-4 of the members shared a theory (not a core part of their ideology, nor did they write it out as ideological content) where basically people have two selves, and "evil" people are created through an imbalance in these two parts. In their belief, being trans created one of these imbalances that made them evil.
So there's two layers to that. One, the false tag in itself created and reinforced through ingroup dynamics. Then there's the second layer that, even if you scratch that out, there's the "extra" conclusion that the driver there is actually *self*-hatred (I hate myself for being trans), rather than projections of external hatred (I hate how other people treat trans).
Without properly assessing these groups, you do not come to either conclusion there. Further, you entirely miss the self-hatred vs projected hatred part, which is a psychodynamic that actually has grand impact not just on individual decision making, but also what strategies you'd need to efficiently approach that person. If they hate themselves and that is the core, you cannot put them through the same deradicalization program as Bob who violently hated another race. The 'things' that happen in it are misaligned and it'd fail.
As a sad bit of irony too and an example of some of the above issues. Dehumanization. Dehumanization is markedly known as one of the largest factors present backing extremist beliefs, group ideological development, ingroup progression towards acceptability and agreeableness with violence, etc. TLDR dehumanization is a factor that underlies quite a lot of important metrics in a way that 'enables' the development and eventual acting on these views. How we treat this is absolutely not equal at all, even in the professional space surrounding the subject. There absolutely is sideism with this that is not treated equally.
It not being treated equally, we then message that the people who notice this are "conspiracy theorists" or getting got by "X-wing propaganda". Which is just another type of rhetoric that actually enables these issues through projecting ingroup exaggerations and interests. We then become confused why they become less agreeable to interacting or trusting us, when our entire messaging frames that we in fact want to manipulate and exploit them for our benefit and not actually do anything in their interest, for them. More confusion ensues on why the problem continues to get worse and outsized.
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Montauk
Active Member
The FBI has released surveillance video supposedly showing their person of interest leaving the scene:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrfHme9Yhc8
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrfHme9Yhc8
deirdre
Senior Member
there are a few new photos released too. found in the recent press briefing footage , photos are about 30:20 into video.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/charlie-kirk-shooting.14430/post-351923
Matt33
Senior Member
Video from a doorbell camera of suspect before the shooting, rifle probably hidden under his clothing/in his pants, thus limping.
https://www.tmz.com/2025/09/11/charlie-kirk-possible-shooter-on-video-near-campus/
https://www.tmz.com/2025/09/11/charlie-kirk-possible-shooter-on-video-near-campus/
Mendel
Senior Member.
my point is that you don't have to be antifa to see Kirk as a nazi:
Article: MAGA Pastor Accuses Charlie Kirk of Inspiring 'Hitler Youth'
Published Feb 02, 2024
I'm not going to argue whether that's justified or not, it's clear there is no consent on that, but it's been justifiable for a lot of people, and not just "radical left lunatics".
I really think it's extremely premature to speculate about motives at this point—especially considering who the victim is. Many studies have been conducted on political assassins, and the truth is often far from the Hollywood-inspired narrative of well-trained, logically motivated individuals. A motive is also subjective: unless we can read the suspect's mind, we cannot truly determine whether a motive is reasonable or not.
A motive might stem from strong political views, but just as often it can be linked to mental illness, a desire for revenge against society as a whole, or even simply an attempt to make a mark in history. As a Swede, I've spent a long time studying the 1986 murder of Prime Minister Olof Palme, who was shot dead in central Stockholm while walking home from the cinema. In that case, it is absolutely clear that the police mishandled the entire investigation by focusing too heavily on motive. While searching for political groups, terror cells, international conspiracies, and well-paid assassins, they let the true perpetrator slip through their fingers.
With hindsight, investigators concluded only a few years ago that the murderer was most likely a now-deceased alcoholic with a long record of personal failures, who happened to work at an insurance company near the crime scene. I understand that it's difficult to believe that high-profile targets are often killed by lone individuals without a clear or well-defined motive—but that is nevertheless often the case.
FatPhil
Senior Member.
There's no comparison between the two events at all, drawing one is absurd.
Here you're conflating indiscriminate selection from a clearly-defined class with indiscriminate selection of a class. The kids in the recent (I am hesitant to call it the latest, as they're not that uncommon) chuch shooting were definitionally from a clearly-defined class that could be pulled straight from the guy's resume.
How are you intrerpreting a reminder not to be tunnel-visioned as somehow an instruction to be tunnel-visioned-only-with-a-slightly-wider-tunnel? You even had to snip "so as to inform us not to jump to any early conclusions about from which group the shooter may have been an extremist" in order to try and make your point. (Oooh - selective quoting being misleading - where have we heard that criticism before). At this point, it looks like you're simply being disingenuous.
I think it's relevant. From what I understand Metabunk is all about working out what's going on in videos and explaining things that aren't easy to understand. Also because people are talking about it online and because the reports are that he was shot in the neck, but if it's a ricochet then that isn't true.
I would like to be able to understand how his t-shirt was able to move like that.
FatPhil
Senior Member.
I suspect everyone in Europe and further afield, and all /The Onion/ readers in the US, will have noticed one thing that is missing from your glaringly-short list of possible steps to take to mitigate the problem.
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Mendel
Senior Member.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/'No...Says_Only_Nation_Where_This_Regularly_Happens
While this was a public shooting, thankfully it was not a mass shooting.External Quote:
This is where the camera is located.
The camera is pointing east towards a patch of open ground where the person of interest is seen running after the shooting.
In the surveillance video showing the person dropping off the roof, they are last seen crossing the road heading north which is consistent with running towards that location (starred location on this screenshot; 874 S 800 W St is the camera location).
The video on the TMZ page showing police searching also matches this location, showing the house with twin dormer windows at top centre of the above aerial view. (I can't embed the video, here is the link).
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And since I wasted a few minutes finding those locations I see someone on Twitter has already done the same, of course:
Source: https://x.com/nikiped1aV2/status/1966288361603412110
Source: https://x.com/nikiped1aV2/status/1966288361603412110
FatPhil
Senior Member.
(Minor nit: please enclose external quotes in "ex" tags, so they stand out from your own original text: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/how-to-use-ex-and-article-tags-for-quoting-external-content.525/ - I've added them so it's clear I'm not quoting your words.)
I do like the very stark contrast between the above comment and the one downthread from Trailblazer's above x.com link: "Who flipping leaves the only physical evidence tying him to the crime behind? What?! Nobody would do this."
What does appear to be in evidence is that: (a) the shooter wasn't a Professional; and (b) not all commentary on the internet is of equal insight, making wrong assumptions can lead to wrong conclusions.
Matt33
Senior Member
Comparing the photos from the rifle search in the wooded area on this page
https://www.the-express.com/news/us-news/183426/charlie-kirk-sniper-wooded-area
with Google Street View the wooded area is this one:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rcxqBJZhuapqzZZHA
https://www.the-express.com/news/us-news/183426/charlie-kirk-sniper-wooded-area
with Google Street View the wooded area is this one:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rcxqBJZhuapqzZZHA
Mendel
Senior Member.
Well, we're all too familiar with argument from incredulity being used to support a conspiracy theory.
i can't believe it's not a conspiracy! is a low-calorie substitute for facts, evidence, and experience.
Matt33
Senior Member
Trump said they got him.
https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/charlie-kirk-shot-utah-death-09-12-25?t=1757679236717
JMartJr
Senior Member.
Perhaps the case of John Hinkley, Jr. who shot President Reagan in order to impress actress Jodie Foster would be a more apt comparison to make the point? Or Arthur Bremmer shooting George Wallace because he wanted to be a famous assassin?
People sometimes shoot political figures as a political act. They also sometimes shoot political figures for totally unrelated motives. We don't know which is the case here yet, though now that it seems like a suspect is in custody, if it is the right one, we may start to actually learn something about motives and can move on from trying to guess!
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
I actually don't trust him on this. This screams to me to be one of those typical things where he's inaccurate/wrong/received the wrong info/etc. and just goes with it. If he is wrong, a lot of people will say he lied.. which I disagree with, but that's discussed ad nauseum in a different thread. I wouldn't be surprised if this is inaccurate, at least to some degree. I'm more interested in a formal statement from the FBI.
FatPhil
Senior Member.
Can someone with access to a modern internet do the legwork for me - both bluesky and wsj absolutely refuse to transmit any bytes to me and any of my browsers or third-party scrapers of choice:
Source: https://i.imgur.com/Kb24FU9.jpeg
via: https://imgur.com/gallery/lies-travel-faster-than-truth-R5QFJtO
misc comments from randos on imgur:
External Quote:
If that claim is true it would prove that there's a lot of noise in the signal. And if it's false, it would prove that there's lots of noise in the signal.External Quote:
What do people even mean by "a professional" in this context?! A professional hitman? A professional sniper? A professional parkourist? I suppose the expression is being used rather loosely to suggest that the shooter was organized and well prepared, as opposed to emotionally driven and acting without rational planning. But the word "professional" can just as easily be interpreted as some character out of a David Baldacci novel.
Stephen Crowder is happy to take at least some responsibility for spreading this.
Source: https://x.com/scrowder/status/1966118431511433267
He claims to have received a tip from someone at the ATF.
My immediate questions are how did he verify that this person was who they claim to be? and if the shared photo was legit was the person who wrote that familiar enough with ammunition to know what was a manufacturers mark was?
Mendel
Senior Member.
WSJ mirror: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/l...usion-on-manhunt-for-kirk-shooter/ar-AA1MnfeV
Commenters on Nellis's message the WSJ article was updated, not retracting; adding the sceptical voices that I quoted before, too ("unable to confirm").
The TRN thing seems to be rumor as well:
the ammunition manufacturer exists, but I haven't seen evidence that they even make the caliber that the assassin used.
instead, the idea may have originated on 4chan.
Matt33
Senior Member
boguesuser
Active Member
Mendel
Senior Member.
Article: "Bella ciao" (Italian pronunciation: [ˈbɛlla ˈtʃaːo]) is an Italian song dedicated to the partisans of the Italian resistance, who fought against the occupying troops of Nazi Germany and the collaborationist Fascist forces during the liberation of Italy.
Versions of Bella ciao continue to be sung worldwide as a hymn of resistance against injustice and oppression.
P.S. The song featured in the netflix series "Money Heist".
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boguesuser
Active Member
"Bella ciao" (Italian pronunciation: [ˈbɛlla ˈtʃaːo]) is an Italian song dedicated to the partisans of the Italian resistance, who fought against the occupying troops of Nazi Germany and the collaborationist Fascist forces during the liberation of Italy.
The arrows are how you summon a 500kg tactical nuke in the game Helldivers.
Edit: Mendel beat me to the wikipage.
The arrows are how you summon a 500kg tactical nuke in the game Helldivers.
Edit: Mendel beat me to the wikipage.
deirdre
Senior Member
perhaps. depending on how one's brain is wired. My examples were the same thing, i just removed the political aspect because we didnt know if politics was a factor at all. which was really the only point i was trying to make.
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