Charlie Hebdo Conspiracy Theories - Ignore or Address?

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Exif said:
Anyway, on the subject of heads and bullets, there is one undeniably real video of a person actually being shot in the head: R. Budd Dwyer's last speech and on-air suicide in 1987. I won't post it here out of respect for everybody's lunch, but it's easy to find online and has been something of a meme in certain internet gutters. And it doesn't look like anything I've seen in a movie or video game, even one striving for realism.
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I wondered of @Exif's question about did he really get shot in the head was even worth responding to. You can clearly see the gunman run up and point his gun at the officers head point blank and shoot...and officer immediately goes limp.

Alas, there are way too many videos of executions (not all beheadings- many shots to the head at close range) floating around the 'net these days with ISIS and their trusty smartphones and PR machine if one needs similar examples.
 
There are many aside from the Dwyer video, but remember there are frequently claims that the ISIS or Al Qaida ones are faked as well. The Dwyer video is one of only a handful with solid enough proof.
 
SR1419 said:
I wondered of @Exif's question about did he really get shot in the head was even worth responding to. You can clearly see the gunman run up and point his gun at the officers head point blank and shoot...and officer immediately goes limp.

Alas, there are way too many videos of executions (not all beheadings- many shots to the head at close range) floating around the 'net these days with ISIS and their trusty smartphones and PR machine if one needs similar examples.
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That information will be realised in time but probably at the inquest.

@Pete Tar My intent was not to discuss individual deaths but to highlight the nature of ballistics. In previous threads I have consistently said there are no "normal" wounds as such against arguments of "a gun shot or a blast causes xyz".

Many do not understand that a certain bullet is designed for a certain job. If we are to debunk these false flags is it not better to do the job right?

I find the whole thing loathsome but get angry over bunk.
 
Pete Tar said:
Personally I'd rather not examine in detail someone's moment of violent death - modern internet users' desensitisation to video footage of the death of others is something I've never really acquired.
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I agree, and it was not my intent when I mentioned the "There's not enough blood" crowd to start a discussion about the 'right' level of blood required. My point was that the world is not really like a Tarantino movie, and many injuries are baffling for the apparent banality prior to causing death.

As a combat veteran I saw nothing suspicious or unrealistic about the French Policeman being shot, but these people start at the conclusion and work backwards.
 
BombDr said:
I agree, and it was not my intent when I mentioned the "There's not enough blood" crowd to start a discussion about the 'right' level of blood required. My point was that the world is not really like a Tarantino movie, and many injuries are baffling for the apparent banality prior to causing death.

As a combat veteran I saw nothing suspicious or unrealistic about the French Policeman being shot, but these people start at the conclusion and work backwards.
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Good post my friend. It is worth noting that the weapon used was an AN-94. In case some of you confront the "no recoil" claim:

External Quote:
The stated great advantage of the AN-94 system is its ability to delay the recoil force until the fired round/s have left the barrel. This, it is claimed, enables more 'hits' on target under the most adverse combat conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN-94

Furthermore, the AN-94 is designed to carry ammunition that will pierce armor. I'm no expert but based on my limited knowledge, a shot at point blank will very likely result in a clean wound (given the weapon and ammunition).
 
David Fraser said:
@Pete Tar My intent was not to discuss individual deaths but to highlight the nature of ballistics. In previous threads I have consistently said there are no "normal" wounds as such against arguments of "a gun shot or a blast causes xyz".

Many do not understand that a certain bullet is designed for a certain job. If we are to debunk these false flags is it not better to do the job right?

I find the whole thing loathsome but get angry over bunk.
Click to expand...
Oh there's room for information to clear up misconceptions - I just thought it would lead to examining in minute detail the footage of the moment of impact, and there is a balance to debunking spurious bunk, and not giving more exposure to things that are in bad taste. The eternal dilemma of debunking.

I do recognise that there's a reality to these things that should be learned and a value to facing hard truths about reality head on.
 
Pete Tar said:
I do recognise that there's a reality to these things that should be learned and a value to facing hard truths about reality head on.
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I agree Pete, but this Officer will be missed by loved ones, and while CTs have no concept of human decency, its perhaps slightly early to begin deconstructing the Zapruderesque 'back and to the left'.

I regret even bringing it up now. I'm conflicted by Mick's premise of ignore or address and whilst I instinctively want to counter nonsense and lies when I see them, I am also that for every claim debunked, the claims then get wilder and more insensitive. Hopefully France does not have the levels of crazy that people will start attacking families in the same vein as Sandy Hook, but I am not sure rebutting is the right response right now.

I don't know what the answer is, I am at a loss. It's all very comforting that all of us are looking at it critically but sensibly, but we are not trying to convince each other.
 
BombDr said:
I'm conflicted by Mick's premise of ignore or address and whilst I instinctively want to counter nonsense and lies when I see them, I am also that for every claim debunked, the claims then get wilder and more insensitive.
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That's a very real problem in debunking. With chemtrails it moved from simple misconceptions about how long a contrail could persist to utter nonsense like "turbofan engines don't make contrails". One wonders what might have happened if nobody ever bothered to address the claims at all.

But of course people ARE going to address bunk, so if it's going to be done, then I think it should at least be done well, clearly and concisely, with as little additional confusion as possible, avoiding double-bunk.

Quick example of that. In the "Fake Snow" thing last year, someone suggested that the snow was not melting because it was sublimating. That sounded all sciencey, so skeptical folk started repeating it, saying things like "you idiot, it's obviously sublimating, go read a science book". The actual real explanation was that the snow was melting and being wicked away by the fluffy snow. The presence of the double-bunk explanation is very unhelpful, as it makes people less likely to listen to skeptics and debunkers. And it's still out there.

Summary: If someone is going to try to debunk it, then you might want to do it first, to make sure it is done right.
 
Exif said:
Huffington Post Twitter exchange currently happening with a conspiracy theorist.
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Nick Myer is quite an extreme true-believer, IIRC, believes in gang stalking, and energy weapons being beamed at his head:


It's interesting that he mentions Icke and Infowars. Icke is just going full bore with the "no blood" thing. However Infowars/Prison Planet is taking what seems initially a more reasonable approach, avoiding most "false flag" accusations, and focussing more on freedom of speech, political correctness, and people being overly accommodating or fearful of muslims. Fairly straightforward libertarian or right wing stuff. It seem there that they, and Paul Joseph Watson in particular, are initially responding with honesty.



And in this video titled "Paris Shooting: What they are not telling you", what they are not telling you is not that there's a false flag, but that in PJW and other opinions the (mostly US) media is too soft when criticizing radical Islam, and he thinks they should show the offensive images, like the European press did.



But then we also have:
External Quote:
On the Thursday, January 8 edition of the Alex Jones Show, Jones breaks down the latest on the Paris shooting, and expounds on why details of the perfectly timed attacks, carried out with military precision, fit the script of an inside job. Alex considers various motives behind why a media organization was targeted, as the manhunt for the suspects continues.
So I suspect they will discover their audience prefers to listen to false flag speculation, and so they will focus on that.
 
Erroneous reports in the MSM do not help the "truthiness" factor. At least they admitted their mistake:

External Quote:
In another instance of a news organization jumping the gun on a fast-moving story, NBC News erroneously reported the capture of two suspects and killing of another in the attack on a French newspaper office and has been forced to issue a correction.
http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment...e-correction-for-erroneous-report-6002193.php
 
Mick West said:
But then we also have:
Content from external source On the Thursday, January 8 edition of the Alex Jones Show, Jones breaks down the latest on the Paris shooting, and expounds on why details of the perfectly timed attacks, carried out with military precision, fit the script of an inside job. Alex considers various motives behind why a media organization was targeted, as the manhunt for the suspects continues.

So I suspect they will discover their audience prefers to listen to false flag speculation, and so they will focus on that.
Click to expand...


I have read a few depressingly predictable assertions this evening that this was 'too sophisticated' for these lads to to, as well as suspicion about the weapons due to France's gun laws. I did retort (and I know it is futile) that I didn't see the sophistication: Drive to office, kill unarmed artists inside, drive away from office. I then added that the same people appear to have robbed a gas station and this is not commonly the practice of special forces or criminal masterminds in their planning.

"Perfectly timed attacks with military precision"....?
 
@Mick: I was just browsing the latest results for 'false flag' when I saw that exchange unfolding and thought it might get interesting, didn't even know you'd once had an exchange with that same person. He does seem to be very extreme in his views and on the verge of being mentally ill the way he comes across.

Also, having mentioned earlier that I myself think that 'execution shot' actually missed I'm prepared to accept I'm wrong if it's proven otherwise. I think it's important that the 'did it or didn't it' question is resolved at some point. If it turns out the shot did miss it should be put down to some people simply believing what they think they saw - if that makes sense?

David Icke has posted this image on his website:

f2197dc80507abaeb658116bda448678.jpg


He's obviously not one who will be prepared to accept that the press simply went with the 'execution shot' headline because they failed to wait for official clarification. Of course at this moment in time there is divided opinion on whether the 'execution shot' did or didn't happen and all we can do is wait for that official clarification.
 
Exif said:
David Icke has posted this image on his website:

f2197dc80507abaeb658116bda448678.jpg


He's obviously not one who will be prepared to accept that the press simply went with the 'execution shot' headline because they failed to wait for official clarification. Of course at this moment in time there is divided opinion on whether the 'execution shot' did or didn't happen and all we can do is wait for that official clarification.
Click to expand...

Sadly David Icke is so far down his own rabbit hole that even the maddest of Hatters would think him odd. To Icke EVERYONE who isn't switched on to his own brand of CT fueled cosmic new age psychobabble is either an alien reptile or is enslaved to them, and as he thinks the reptilians really control everything, including the internet he is gonna scream every time one of his vids gets pulled. I used to lurk in his forums and it happens a lot, but I suspect the removals are normally due to copyright infringement rather than the reptilian agenda
 
Exif said:
Of course at this moment in time there is divided opinion on whether the 'execution shot' did or didn't happen and all we can do is wait for that official clarification.
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this all sounds like those lonely housewives who stalk celebrity news as to wherther 'celebrity a' broke up with so and so. It's morbid curiosity and voyeurism as far as i'm concerned. The PTB say its "normal" to gawk at accidents and other peoples misery, but I've never understood that myself. I'll never understand why people think everything that happens in this world is somehow their business.
 
Hevach said:
Anyway, on the subject of heads and bullets, there is one undeniably real video of a person actually being shot in the head: R. Budd Dwyer's last speech and on-air suicide in 1987. I won't post it here out of respect for everybody's lunch, but it's easy to find online and has been something of a meme in certain internet gutters. And it doesn't look like anything I've seen in a movie or video game, even one striving for realism.
Click to expand...
There's plenty of similar videos on LiveLeak and such that contain the same kind of graphic content which show that there's not just one "typical" way for a person to look and react after being shot in the head.

There's also mainstream media commentary videos such as this one from Sky news which suggests that, according to the reporters opinion, the gunmen conducted themselves as "military professionals...with combat experience" using "old fashioned infantry tactics". The reporter seems confident in what he's talking about, albeit speculating from just two video clips, one of which is grainy and hard to pick (interesting that he's able to determine that the police vehicle was 'double tapped' despite having nothing to back that assertion up...). I would think that having mainstream media make this kind of commentary would only further fuel suggestion of "inside job" conducted by "government agents".

Thomas said:
They crashed their getaway car and had to car-jack another, it is certainly possible they left a bag or bags with their ID's.
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Check the video I linked above - at the 40sec mark, a running shoe is clearly visible having fallen out the drivers side door. In the uncut video the gunman picks it back up again on the way back when he gets in the car. My point being - if there was running shoes falling out of the car, who knows what other personal belongings may have been left littered about inside? Perhaps they got changed in the car and wallets etc fell out? It seems plausible anyway.
 
BombDr said:
I then added that the same people appear to have robbed a gas station and this is not commonly the practice of special forces or criminal masterminds in their planning.
Click to expand...

Ah, but that's what "they" want you to think! ;) (+1 for needing sarcasm emoticon).

Im not too sure about why all the speculating re 'military' training either - they obviously know how to use the guns and dress the part, but then so do 'airsofters'.

Ozz said:
Good post my friend. It is worth noting that the weapon used was an AN-94. In case some of you confront the "no recoil" claim...Furthermore, the AN-94 is designed to carry ammunition that will pierce armor. I'm no expert but based on my limited knowledge, a shot at point blank will very likely result in a clean wound (given the weapon and ammunition).
Click to expand...

IF it was an AN-94, that might put the whole 'recoil' argument to bed, as that's a 5.56mm calibre, which has a lot less recoil than a 7.62, which is what AK-47's are chambered for.

Also, at close range there are different types of rounds that will penetrate a body, either whole or fragmented, it doesn't necessarily need to be AP.

Exif said:
Also, having mentioned earlier that I myself think that 'execution shot' actually missed I'm prepared to accept I'm wrong if it's proven otherwise. I think it's important that the 'did it or didn't it' question is resolved at some point.
Click to expand...

Just my opinion, but does it matter that much? He died either way - hit or miss on the final shot. The victim seems to be writhing in pain initially, and goes very still immediately afterwards.
 
BombDr said:
Straight off the bat I have read some nonsense about Mossad being involved (who else?) and the motivation being the French voting for Palestinian UN membership and admittance to the ICC.

External Quote:
http://aanirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/mossad-attacks-paris.html
Not really debunking, but lets roll with this theory and see it through:

Would the French change their plans to vote on the Palestinian issue because of this? Probably not.

If the assertion then becomes that Israel is 'punishing the French' for voting a particular way, and that punishment is meant to correct behaviour, would the French learn from this and vote in favour of Israel? Probably not.

For the theory to work, it would mean that the Mossad place the offending cartoons in Charlie Hebdo, which indeed would fit in with the classic "Jews control media" mantra, which is implausible for a variety of reasons.

Finally, when the identities of the assailants is known, my guess would be from precedent that they will be some impoverished lads of North African origin, from a crappy part of town, with low education and most probably not have an opinion either way on Palestinian issues.

For this to work, the assailant will need a strong Palestinian connection for true anti-Palestinian revulsion to occur, just like all those Iraqis flying planes on 911.
Click to expand...

It's a little funny you mention Israel and their involvement. Whenever I try to engage a conspiracy theorist, whether online or in person, many point out that they don't want their country to turn into Nazi Germany. Yet, they seem to blame everything on Mossad, Israel, Jewish people in general, etc. Seems like a bit of a...hypocritical stance.
 
There was an intentionally blurred video of the execution in the early television reports. I think this was quickly removed as being too disturbing (even the blurred version made me sick); and would be traumatic to the victim's family. Would you like to see your father/husband/son/brother executed over and over on TV 7x24?

The mainstream media was simply using journalistic discretion. Legitimate media also does not release the names of sexually abused children - that doesn't mean the crime didn't happen.

You might be able to find the raw video online if you have a strong stomach.

Exif said:
Has there been any official statement to confirm the policeman who was shot at while lying on the ground was indeed shot in the head?

I don't suppose it matters whether or not he died from a shot to the head or succumbed to his earlier gunshot wounds which appear to have been in the torso area but without official information regarding his wounds should the media not be a little more careful with the facts before running with the 'Executed By Shot To The Head' storyline?

As I say, I don't suppose it makes a difference which bullet killed him and it certainly looks like the 'head shot' missed to me but it makes for good shock value headlines which whether you like it or not, sells newspapers. If later proven to be inaccurate it will probably be yet another 'anomaly' or 'fake reporting' talking point for conspiracy theorists to jump all over.

Maybe the media should be running with something in their headlines like '... The Gunman Then Appeared To Shoot Him In The Head' until they know - one way or the other - that it did indeed hit and not miss.

Early assumptions and confused and conflicting reporting always happens when an incident like this occurs and it's what conspiracy theorists jump on before waiting for the facts to emerge.

I suppose what i'm saying is; shouldn't the media check their facts before running with assumptions which only serve to feed conspiracy theories?
Click to expand...
 
Mick West said:
But then we also have:
External Quote:
On the Thursday, January 8 edition of the Alex Jones Show, Jones breaks down the latest on the Paris shooting, and expounds on why details of the perfectly timed attacks, carried out with military precision, fit the script of an inside job. Alex considers various motives behind why a media organization was targeted, as the manhunt for the suspects continues.
Click to expand...
What was it supposedly 'perfectly timed' with? A short amount of time? It makes no sense and is empty sensationalism. (and the real mystery is why I'm puzzled by this considering the industry it's coming from. When events like this happen, this is their money-maker, so of course they're going to capitalise on it all they can by insinuating anything they can think of).
 
Thomas said:
They crashed their getaway car and had to car-jack another, it is certainly possible they left a bag or bags with their ID's.
Click to expand...

why would they bring their IDs with them at all and not pay attention if they lose them or not? It's not that easy to lose an ID, especially two people at the same time.
 
Stevan Gvozdenovic said:
why would they bring their IDs with them at all and not pay attention if they lose them or not? It's not that easy to lose an ID, especially two people at the same time.
Click to expand...
Isn't that based on the assumption that they planned to get away clean and cared if their IDs remained unknown? Given the apparent nature of the attack that may not be the case. I don't think some of their actions, like the robbery of a petrol station for food and money, indicate they had a meticulously planned getaway where they'd hoped to fade into the background.

Ray Von
 
Mick West said:
Nick Myer is quite an extreme true-believer, IIRC, believes in gang stalking, and energy weapons being beamed at his head:

It's interesting that he mentions Icke and Infowars. Icke is just going full bore with the "no blood" thing. However Infowars/Prison Planet is taking what seems initially a more reasonable approach, avoiding most "false flag" accusations, and focussing more on freedom of speech, political correctness, and people being overly accommodating or fearful of muslims. Fairly straightforward libertarian or right wing stuff. It seem there that they, and Paul Joseph Watson in particular, are initially responding with honesty.



And in this video titled "Paris Shooting: What they are not telling you", what they are not telling you is not that there's a false flag, but that in PJW and other opinions the (mostly US) media is too soft when criticizing radical Islam, and he thinks they should show the offensive images, like the European press did.


But then we also have:
External Quote:
On the Thursday, January 8 edition of the Alex Jones Show, Jones breaks down the latest on the Paris shooting, and expounds on why details of the perfectly timed attacks, carried out with military precision, fit the script of an inside job. Alex considers various motives behind why a media organization was targeted, as the manhunt for the suspects continues.
So I suspect they will discover their audience prefers to listen to false flag speculation, and so they will focus on that.
Click to expand...


Why do perfectly timed or carried out with military precision have to be signatures of an inside job? I hate to think that all my years in Northern Ireland were wasted on quite a successful bunch of amateurs with no training at all, or even experiences in Iraq or Afghanistan.
 
Just my opinion, but does it matter that much? He died either way - hit or miss on the final shot. The victim seems to be writhing in pain initially, and goes very still immediately afterwards.
Click to expand...

I'm doing a u-turn on this and saying it doesn't matter at all, no - not to people who think a hit is a hit and a miss is a miss anyway. But conspiracy theorists want there to be a bigger explanation for the 'Executed By Headshot' line other than that the media and viewers of the video were simply mistaken in what they thought they saw.

Maybe this is one episode that simply doesn't warrant a debunked article about it as it really is a simple case of hit or miss, and that's that. I suppose we'll never be able to produce enough evidence to convince them that's the case.
 
cloudspotter said:
When were they reported shot and captured?
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There was few news about this in a same day when they attacked the newspaper. I blame bad journalism for this.

BombDr said:
Does this appear to you so far that this was a brilliantly thought out and executed plan?
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Well to be honest now the situation is that there has been other group(a man and a female) taken hostages and demanding police to end surrounding the allegaded terrorists I would call that there is some tought put on this plan.
 
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