1. Wiggles

    Wiggles New Member

    First I know I'm supposed to start with a claim, and the claim I'd use would be "there have been no photos of space since this first photo from space was taken in the mid 20th century":[​IMG]
    You can look at that and convince yourself the horizon is flat. Obviously the Apollo mission photos debunk the claim right away and show Earth is round.
    [​IMG]

    One could easily say however "Look at how Hollywood uses CGI to create photo and video of earth. All the photos and video you see today could easily be faked". So I couldn't talk him out of it (maybe he wasn't even serious, who knows). I've looked for contradictions or "giveaways" in photos from space of the earth from the DSCOVR or Himawari (such as disagreeing cloud formations) but haven't found any, so until someone finds a dead giveaway that the photos are faked, there's no reason to believe they are.

    For the next day or two after that guy made this claim to me though, I was a stage 1 flat earther (flat earthers often talk about various stages where you start by doubting earth is what "they" say it is, then you gradually convince yourself earth is flat). I seriously considered that earth being flat is a possibility, and then scrambled to look at my local geography to find an island that is distant enough to be obstructed by the ocean if earth is round, but close enough to see with the naked eye. Luckily I found an island and was able to demonstrate earth isn't flat. So I got off the flat earth train quite quickly. If I hadn't done that experiment, I might have stayed on the flat earth train a bit longer. Probably I'd just keep looking for an experiment I could do to verify earth isn't flat.

    I always wonder that if I didn't have a lot of training in mathematics and applied science, then maybe I could have become a flat earther. My general practitioner said "stay out of that flat earth side of the internet, you are a person who is more vulnerable to these things". I'm also very likely not a neurotypical individual, and although I've not been diagnosed with psychosis or any other disorder, I've been hospitalized for induced psychosis. Crazy people think differently and might come up with good ideas (which is why Alan Watts said you want to have about 5% screwballs in any university faculty of professors), but of course crazy thoughts are often best left alone.

    I am a person who sees the appeal of going against what people normally think and accept, and going into ideas that people might consider nutty. But I just get angry when people go into nutty ideas and leave math behind. I see them falling for bullshit like I did when I started thinking "maybe earth really is flat. I don't know, I could have been lied to", but they don't use math to think about these ideas. I look it as them performing self mutilation, and you would probably get angry if you saw someone whipping themselves or beating themselves and you'd tell them to stop.

    ---

    So one of the reasons I'm making this post is because I've wasted too much time in this flat earth game. Flat earthers often get defensive and hurl insults when you simply state something like "water has a density of 1g/cm^3" except it's a fact that contradicts earth being flat. Is there really any point now in staying in the flat earth game, or should I just let the very small minority of flat earthers continue to "self mutilate" themselves as I described?
     
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  2. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Whether to stay in or leave a game - any "game" - is a tough question. Force yourself to leave and a part of you may remain in it, but express itself in even screwier ways. Or you may miss out on learning something important. Or get into even dodgier waters.

    But sometimes when we take a break from something - go on a "fast", as it were - we quickly find out it wasn't actually very useful or good for us and we were only in it out of habit/compulsion.

    Sometimes "the only way out is through", and we exhaust the possibilities, and find ourselves complete and fulfilled with that particular stage of the journey. Then it's not an effort to "give it up", it's just "done".
     
  3. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    Which drug were you taking?
     
  4. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    I don't consider myself "neurotypical" either. I would never be diagnosed with autism but I have autistic traits, and I think this is common among debunkers. There's something about irrational claims that triggers people on the autism spectrum - people who tend to be detail oriented and literal minded. It's an odd kind of dance between opposite personality types.

    It would be interesting to see how people here score on this test:

    https://psychology-tools.com/test/autism-spectrum-quotient

    Years ago I scored 30 and just now I took it again and scored 31 - pretty consistent.
    But this is just confirming something I was already aware of.


    Btw this isn't a crude Internet clickbait test.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
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  5. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    19, although I'm sure I would have scored higher 20 or 30 years ago. It's common for computer programmers to think they are not neurotypical.
     
  6. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I got 16 and then 5 mins later I got a 25.

    :)
     
  7. Wiggles

    Wiggles New Member

    Mine said "Your score was 36 out of a possible 50. Scores in the 33-50 range indicate significant Austistic traits (Autism)." Looks like I win. :( . I think this game is more like golf. But I'm not surprised. I've done many of these and gotten similar results. I honestly think autism is the best explanation for my electrical engineering degree because I sort of interacted with no one in my class, never participated in a single group study, and still somehow passed. That whole thing is humorous to me. I didn't even really enjoy the degree. The most fun I had was when I goofed off and learned stuff that actually interested me at the time. (I ended up pissing off my senior project supervisor because I did what I wanted and not what he wanted) One example of goofing off was designing this circuit (see page 17): https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hlWYs1O7DirXFkKx0_LlXZcN1u5XnNCL which is basically a controller for a dual power supply that prevents shorts when swapping to the other power supply. It's like a state machine made of RC circuits, which does nothing more than function like a little man flipping switches in the right order so nothing breaks.

    ---

    Also Rory what you said did resonate with me on some sort of cosmic level if I can put it that way haha. I've tried "fasting", but I find myself to keep coming back to try and convert flat earthers back to reality. I've tried gently debugging their logic but unfortunately I always get uncomfortable if they start to see their beliefs erode away. I can't really be emotionally supportive, because instead I just want to continue to erode more and more of their flat earth beliefs, but without their flat earth beliefs they might become even more vulnerable and I become uncomfortable around vulnerable/weak minded people. I mean if they drop flat earth and pick up Euclid's Elements I think it will be ok.

    ---

    As for which chemical I was talking about here: "I'm also very likely not a neurotypical individual, and although I've not been diagnosed with psychosis or any other disorder, I've been hospitalized for induced psychosis.", it was just one time I took it. I don't want people to just be able to go online and see the name of the chemical and misjudge me, so I'll just say that the name given by enthusiasts is the letter that is the beginning of both words of the description of my degree.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  8. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    that riddle isn't very hard to solve. If you want to edit your comment. (Not that there's anything to judge about that, in my opinion).
     
  9. Wiggles

    Wiggles New Member

    Yeah it's not hard to solve, I just want people to have to reference my education in order for the question to be answered. I sometimes come across as a stupid dope or something like that and people don't believe me when I say I'm intelligent and that many people often say I am intelligent. So I put the riddle there to prevent that. But I am still retarded (slow) sometimes.
     
  10. CeruleanBlu

    CeruleanBlu Active Member

    [​IMG]

    This isn't a surprise to me, but thank you for the link.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    I scored 21 on the questionnaire. But then the questions seem fairly transparent in their intention, so I might have been subconsciously gaming my score ;)
     
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  12. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I answered I tend to focus on the big picture.. but later realized how ultra focused I was on the details of each and every question :)

    I had a real hard time trying to decide which type of theater I wanted to paste in vs. which type of museum I was going to go to (and if i'd already been to that museum).
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Also "I would rather go to a library than a party"? I mean, there are parties and there are parties. Summer party at the great aunt's nursing home? Let me grab my library card...
     
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  14. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I think they are both "loudness" questions. ??

    They could be socializing questions, but actors are more "things" (ie. they are not real, they are pretend,) then things in a museum are. I mean the only reason they put things in museums is because of the human history behind them.
     
  15. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    I got only 42, answering for an autistic relative. Some questions were not applicable to the person, but, as answers were still required, I approximated them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  16. Marin B

    Marin B Active Member

    19, with most of my answers being "somewhat agree" or "somewhat disagree"
     
  17. Mechanik

    Mechanik Member

    Fascinating quiz, by the way. Thank you. I expected to score somewhere in the medium range, but surprised myself with a 21. All potential “score gaming” aside, I spent probably 10 years as a software developer (let me know if your COBOL or RPG2 needs tweaking and then try to concatenate that with todays skills in Python, R, and JS), followed by 30 years as a consultant designing technology solutions for business problems. I suspect that my answers have changed over time as I spend more enjoyable time interacting with, and solving problems for, people.

    I’ve never considered whether I’m neurotypical. Is that typical? ;) My calling requires strong empathy, followed by massive amounts of detailed thinking, math, and writing and I think the former drives my current score on something like this. Before I got where I am today, I probably would have scored much higher. Does ASD decline with age?

    In context, this means I’m strongly sympathetic to FE claims; wanting to understand the drivers behind the rhetoric. However, my problem-solving side is frustrated by the inability to conduct a structured bi-directional logical argument with a FE’er. This is true in my professional life as well, as I occasionally run into clients that can’t make connections like “if A=B and B=C, then A=C”. As on here at Metabunk, I occasionally resort to pictures with these folks, or even ask them to write down their thoughts, to attempt to arrive at common ground.

    Interesting turn to the thread. Thanks.
     
  18. Nth

    Nth Member

    Got 18, had mostly middle ground responses as well. Honest to God though, I expected my score to be a good deal higher, particularly after I just spent dang near an hour responding to a copy-paste of moon landing hoax claims. :p
     
  19. DasKleineTeilchen

    DasKleineTeilchen Active Member

    32. doesnt surprise me. I think mostly stuff on social interaction in meatworld.
     
  20. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    I scored 17. Useful to have the earlier tips (eg, it's about quiet vs stimulation): I generally go to a party with a book in my pocket just in case. Not that I don't like people or socialising, but I tend to find most people say things I've already heard quite a few times, and I'm at that stage in my life where I don't find that so interesting. ;)
     
  21. qed

    qed Senior Member

    I found 50 questions far to many to stay focussed. I am sticking with the online ADD tests.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
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  22. Wiggles

    Wiggles New Member

    I wondered if I had ADD but I am now certain I do not. So we can be wrong about these things.
     
  23. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    in some of the critiques and studies studying this particular test, they actually talk about that. How many 'autistics' cant finish the test and what that means to results.
     
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  24. tinkertailor

    tinkertailor Senior Member

    27, so right on the cusp of what they consider possibly autistic. I've thought about it before, since I went through a phase of being unable to make eye contact, hate loud noises and certain textures, and get exhausted by social contact. My other diagnoses match those behaviors better, namely anxiety and atypical migraine. It's interesting, regardless.
     
  25. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Introverts feel drained by too much social contact too.

    Enjoying quiet vs noises and stimulation seems more like a byproduct of maturity.

    And I'd say avoiding certain people/smalltalk is more a sign of wisdom than anything else.

    Still, I'm okay with this test since it scored me quite low. :)
     
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  26. tinkertailor

    tinkertailor Senior Member

    I mean, there isn't anything wrong with having ASD either. We still don't know a lot about it, and I think everyone is somewhere on the spectrum. There's no shame in having a high score, or a score that fluctuates. If I took this on a day I was beginning to get a migraine, I'd probably be mid-thirties or higher.
     
  27. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    its only asd if other known 'disorders' are ruled out. like you noted above, anxiety, depression, social avoidance disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder etc. ... i mean obviously you can have both .. but being an obsessive compulsive with a migraine does not make you autistic.

    it's more 'theory of mind' issues. which is why boys are diagnosed with asd way more often then females.
     
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  28. Wiggles

    Wiggles New Member

    I'm high functioning and not diagnosed but I was told by a psychologist to look into high functioning autism. There are absolutely things wrong with being autistic. There's also nothing wrong with it. Somehow that's the right answer.
     
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  29. Clouds Givemethewillies

    Clouds Givemethewillies Active Member

    I am buggered if I know what is wrong with me, but I am stuck with it, and it could be a lot worse.
     
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  30. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    Quick discussion about autism, and I'm making this as brief as possible but still be coherent. These are actually notes I've made for myself.

    There are two bigwigs in the field:

    Simon Baron-Cohen

    3 intertwined issues:

    Theory of Mind

    Extreme Male Brain

    The Empathizing–Systemizing
    (E–S) theory

    Men are better ‘systemizers’ — more interested in patterns and quicker to spot them in natural, mathematical or mechanical systems. And women are better ‘empathizers,’ more keenly tuned to the emotional state of others.

    Men and women with autism are both keen systemizers, but less able empathizers, Baron-Cohen has proposed. He suggests that autism is related to overexposure to testosterone while in the womb.

    The Empathizing–Systemizing
    (E–S) theory suggests that people may be classified on the basis of their scores along two dimensions: empathizing (E) and systemizing (S). It measures a person's strength of interest in empathy and a person's strength of interest in systems.

    According to the originator of the hypothesis, Simon Baron-Cohen, the E-S theory has been tested using the Empathy Quotient (EQ) and Systemizing Quotient (SQ), developed by him and colleagues, and generates five different 'brain types' depending on the presence or absence of discrepancies between their scores on E or S. E-S profiles show that the profile E>S is more common in females than in males, and the profile S>E is more common in males than in females. Baron-Cohen and associates say the E-S theory is a better predictor than gender of who chooses STEM subjects (Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics). The E-S theory has been extended into the 'Extreme Male Brain' (EMB) theory of autism and Asperger syndrome, which are associated in the E-S theory with below-average empathy and average or above-average systemizing.


    Henry Markram

    The Intense World Theory – A Unifying Theory of the Neurobiology of Autism



    I tend to think Markram's theory is more inclusive, because there is no single brand of autism. I think it's more a number of traits which are all put under the heading of autism but can often seem to be exclusive. (With psychology in general I think it's more useful to look at traits than headings.)

    E.g.: Metaphor. The inability to decipher metaphor is considered a classic autistic trait. The literal mind. But there are people with clearly autistic traits who are also hyper-sensitive to metaphor, irony, satire. The obsessive Monty Python Fan.

    And I am one of those. Looking through comments sections under FE YT videos (which is a very autistic thing to do!) I'm often dismayed to see literal reactions to rather obvious satire and irony. Dismayed because these literal minded reactions are from people making arguments against FE.

    If there is a connection it's an extreme relation to metaphor. All or nothing.

    If you look through the test I linked to there are many questions relating to metaphor. I'm saved from the autism diagnosis on this test by my answers to this type of question. But should I really be saved? Shouldn't my hyper-sensitivity to metaphor count?
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  31. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    it's not a diagnostic test. it is just a research tool and an 'overview', to help general practitioners know if they should suggest further evaluation by more specific doctors (starting with a neurologist) if the patient is expressing trouble in some areas of functioning.
     
  32. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Sorry I might have misread, but are you saying you are autistic?
     
  33. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    Specifically I have the trait of being hyper-sensitive to, and fascinated with, metaphor, irony and satire.
     
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  34. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    Yes.
     
  35. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    I may be stepping on some toes here, but what the heck. I came of age in the 70's and was a huge Science Fiction Fan. I've personally met Harlan Ellison, Theodore Sturgeon, Jack Vance, Phillip Dick and many more. We "Literary Fans" divided ourselves from "Media Fans." We read books and those others watched TV. We tended to be bemused by (and smugly superior to) Trekkies in particular.

    We would watch Trek and enjoy it, but Trekkies tended to be the crazed little brothers who obsessed on the wrong things. They knew everything about Trek except how to enjoy it. The endless lists and trivia. The serious and violent arguments about whether The Menagerie counts as one episode or two. Very important because it determines how many episodes in the series!

    Trekkies were the literal minded list makers. We were a different breed of Nerd.

    In turn we had a term for non-SF Fans: "Mundanes." Mundanes couldn't see the difference between Fans who read PKD and Trekkies. Those stupid Mundanes sure were frustrating.

    Point: Seems to be a difference between people who both have autistic traits.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  36. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    there certainly are weird non-autistic people too. ;)
     
  37. LREKing

    LREKing New Member

    There are those who suggest a causal relationship between poor diet and autism, although it appears to be little more than an untested hypothesis at the moment. A similar relationship has been proposed between being autistic and being conservative. Would it not be great, therefore, if we could get ride of Trump just by changing the American diet?