FAA closes El Paso and New Mexico airspace for 10 days

Ann K said:
Sorry if it upset you, but I took your post as a joke. The notion that "advanced laser weapons" should be the standard approach toward a simple balloon struck me as being a ludicrous overkill.
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There are many things done by responsible societies to protect people that on the face of might seem overkill, but are there because we value life.
 
jarlrmai said:
There are many things done by responsible societies to protect people that on the face of might seem overkill, but are there because we value life.
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"We're fighting balloons because we're pro-life"??

For drones, weaponry typically includes weapons intended to disrupt its electronics, starting with simple radio/GPS jammers.
 
jarlrmai said:
There are many things done by responsible societies to protect people that on the face of might seem overkill, but are there because we value life.
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The key word being "responsible". Most reporting indicates the lasers were not being operated by trained Army Air Defense branch personnel as part of an integrated air defense network, but rather by the cos-play operators of DHS. The system they were using was not designed or intended for law enforcement use and failure to effect basic coordination with the FAA indicates an utter lack of awareness over the public safety risks of using this technology in air space being transited by civilian aircraft.

The FAA was right in closing the airspace until the situation could be clarified. At least someone was cognizant of just how far off the rails this sort of behavior could go if left unchecked. https://www.metabunk.org/threads/mh...n-ukraine-and-the-netherlands-v-russia.14323/
 
Gary C said:
Most reporting indicates the lasers were not being operated by trained Army Air Defense branch personnel as part of an integrated air defense network, but rather by the cos-play operators of DHS. The system they were using was not designed or intended for law enforcement use and failure to effect basic coordination with the FAA indicates an utter lack of awareness over the public safety risks of using this technology in air space being transited by civilian aircraft.
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is it believable the army would just deliver one of it's 4-6 expensive lasers over to non military personnel? Trump made a new Task Force last year.
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Article:
Following President Trump's Executive Order "Protecting the American People Against Invasion," the DoD has made protecting the southern border its top priority. It also supports the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and U.S Customs and Border Protection (CBP) in ensuring 100% operational security.

The mission is to conduct all-domain operations to control the U.S. southern border in support of CBP to protect the territorial integrity of the United States.


Dont get me wrong, the army does do stupid stuff.. like when they let that young woman flying the helicopter take out a passenger plane in DC. But expensive and rare military equipment?? sounds doubtful.
 
deirdre said:
is it believable the army would just deliver one of it's 4-6 expensive lasers over to non military personnel? Trump made a new Task Force last year.
View attachment 88623
Article:
Following President Trump's Executive Order "Protecting the American People Against Invasion," the DoD has made protecting the southern border its top priority. It also supports the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and U.S Customs and Border Protection (CBP) in ensuring 100% operational security.

The mission is to conduct all-domain operations to control the U.S. southern border in support of CBP to protect the territorial integrity of the United States.


Dont get me wrong, the army does do stupid stuff.. like when they let that young woman flying the helicopter take out a passenger plane in DC. But expensive and rare military equipment?? sounds doubtful.
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External Quote:
The sources said the Defense Department led the development of the technology, but CBP was physically operating it this week. Another source familiar with the matter said Defense personnel were present when the device was used.
Your doubt is noted. Also your attempt to avoid the important issues.

The Russian backed crew of the SA-11 that shot down MH17 was obviously proficient enough to acquire a target and engage it with a missile. That they failed to consider or verify the possibility of civilian aircraft in their sector speaks to operational incompetence at nearly every level above them. The failure to coordinate with the FAA and the employment of military weapons in what is clearly not a war zone speaks to similar levels of callous disregard for civilian safety while in pursuit of political goals on the part of DHS and DOW. I really don't care which is more to blame at this point.
 
Gary C said:
Also your attempt to avoid the important issues.
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i said the army does do stupid stuff. they took down a passenger plane in DC. because the werent workign with the FAA closely enough apparently.
that's fairly important dont you think?

my comment was in response to all the people agreeing with your assertion that "coplay DHS operators" (ie border patrol) shot the laser.
 
deirdre said:
i said the army does do stupid stuff. they took down a passenger plane in DC. because the werent workign with the FAA closely enough apparently.
that's fairly important dont you think?

my comment was in response to all the people agreeing with your assertion that "coplay DHS operators" (ie border patrol) shot the laser.
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And I clarified that that the entire operation was ill conceived and reckless regardless of who was ultimately in charge. But since you want to blame anyone but DHS, your irrelevant injection of the DC plane crash is also off-base.

External Quote:
"Contributing factors include:

  • the limitations of the traffic awareness and collision alerting systems on both aircraft, which precluded effective alerting of the impending collision to the flight crews;
  • an unsustainable airport arrival rate, increasing traffic volume with a changing fleet mix, and airline scheduling practices at DCA, which regularly strained the DCA air traffic control tower workforce and degraded safety over time;
  • the Army's lack of a fully implemented safety management system, which should have identified and addressed hazards associated with altitude exceedances on the Washington, DC, helicopter routes;
  • the FAA's failure across multiple organizations to implement previous NTSB recommendations, including Automatic Dependent Surveillance–Broadcast In, and to follow and fully integrate its established safety management system, which should have led to several organizational and operational changes based on previously identified risks that were known to management; and
  • the absence of effective data sharing and analysis among the FAA, aircraft operators, and other relevant organizations. We determined that the probable cause of this accident was the FAA's placement of a helicopter route in close proximity to a runway approach path; their failure to regularly review and evaluate helicopter routes and available data, and their failure to act on recommendations to mitigate the risk of a midair collision near Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport; as well as the air traffic system's overreliance on visual separation in order to promote efficient traffic flow without consideration for the limitations of the see-and-avoid concept. "
Source - https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/DCA25MA108.aspx
 
deirdre said:
then why did you go out of your way to prove my point for me?


You think i'm more defensive of DHS than our military men? umm...no.

Source: https://youtube.com/shorts/pW4lx5mngCw?si=Kx7dzSZHwRsBvBly



Source: https://youtu.be/aAJrU0TZICU?t=10
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I proved only that your characterization of the crash is also incorrect. You TWICE blamed the Army for the DC plane crash yet the official findings only place Army procedures as but ONE of of the five contributing factors spelled out in the report. Attempting to wrap yourself in the flag changes nothing. Sell it somewhere else.
 
The best comparison are the "spy balloons", which NORTHCOM deliberately shot down over uninhabited territory.

If there's anything in the air violating US airspace, then that's a matter for NORTHCOM, and not for CBP to discharge weapons willy-nilly into unsecured airspace and potentially adjacent countries.
 
flarkey said:
Its not impossible, but is probably difficult to get either an IR or radar lock (the two most common types of missile guidance) on such a small object. It is certainly overkill using a large, costly missile to hit a $200 drone, but hey - that's why they call it asymetric warfare.
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Asymmetric warfare is typically used when the little guy overperforms. What does G-13 do is just bunny bashing.
 
flarkey said:
It is certainly overkill using a large, costly missile
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oh sorry, i was thinking planes could still shoot bullets... but that's probably obsolete. yea, if youre gonna shoot a missile its probably easier and less expensive to just run the drone over with your jet. :)
 
deirdre said:
oh sorry, i was thinking planes could still shoot bullets... but that's probably obsolete. yea, if youre gonna shoot a missile its probably easier and less expensive to just run the drone over with your jet. :)
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But It's NOT "easier and less expensive" to risk your life and possibly reduce a gazillion-dollar military aircraft to rubble by deliberately running down an unknown object in the sky.
 
Ann K said:
reduce a gazillion-dollar military aircraft to rubble
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i doubt it would be reduced to rubble. and its not a gazillion dollars. and it wouldn't be unknown, they'd be looking at it with their eyeballs.
I wonder if the drone would crash if the jet flew close enough to take it out with its wake?
 
just random stuff i found (thanks to @Mendel remembering the right name of the command unit ie. North Com) on the radar detection used by "Joint Task Force: Southern Border or JTF/SB... since this turned out to be a balloon allegedly and alot of our other ufo threads may be balloons.

Figure we'll be getting other military "UFO" leaks from JTF/SB eventually...
https://www.northcom.mil/BorderSecurity/


Article:
A small fraction of those, anywhere from 28 to 34 soldiers who are part of a 10th Mountain Division target acquisition platoon, are manning four radars across 2,000 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border to detect a growing number of drones that are suspected to be used by Mexico-based cartels. The commander of U.S. Northern Command told Congress in March that there are likely more than 1,000 drones spotted every month along the border.
....
The platoon operates Lockheed Martin's AN/TPQ-53 Quick Reaction Capability Radar, which is used in combat to detect rockets, mortars, and artillery.

"The Q-53 is traditionally counter fire or weapons locating radar, so we use those in a defense role so that if somebody fires a missile or artillery shell at us, we'll see where they shot from and where it's gonna land," Thomas said.

Upon arriving at the border, the platoon's radar was upgraded for small UAS detection and tracking "instead of just a ballistic flight path projectile," he said.
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Soldiers are also using the AN/MPQ-64 Sentinel radar system which is used for short-range air defense and can detect hostile planes, helicopters, drones or missiles, according to RTX (formerly Raytheon). The difference between using the Sentinel in combat and at the border, Thomas said, is that they're "purely using this to find and detect" and not linking it to a Stinger missile or another weapons system meant to engage a threat.



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Article:
May 29, 2025
Assigned to the Headquarters and Headquarters Battery, 10th Mountain Division Artillery, 10th Mountain Division, the radar platoon, led by Capt. Christopher McNamara, is part of the broader Joint Task Force-Southern Border mission. The team's primary role is to operate ground-based radars and feed critical intelligence to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).
....
Soldiers on McNamara's team operate two primary systems: the AN/TPQ-53 Quick Reaction Capability Radar, used to identify the origin and impact points of indirect fire such as rockets and mortars, and the AN/MPQ-64 Sentinel radar system, which tracks low-flying aircraft and drone activity across wide areas. Though originally designed for use on the battlefield, both systems have been adapted for homeland defense.
...
The team monitors radar feeds in real time and works to distinguish between benign and potentially dangerous activity. Radar interpretation relies heavily on operator judgment.

"It's not an automated system, so there is a human element to it," McNamara said. "We have to make determinations and distinctions about the data we receive and act accordingly. It can be difficult at times, given the sheer amount of data our system receives in a day."


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Article:
May 19, 2025
A Research Associate Professor from UTEP further enriched the exchange by giving a brief about the Low Altitude Surveillance Program (LASP). LASP is the current program local civilian law enforcement use to track Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS), including drones. Due to the known threat of UAS during the southern border mission, military integration of LASP may provide more comprehensive intelligence reports to JTF-SB.
 
The problem here is we don't really know anything about the alleged target, balloon or drone. Assuming the reference to smuggling is correct, the drone could be anything from this 17lb machine https://www.amazon.com/SwellPro-Fisherman-Fishing-waterproof-advanced/dp/B0CNWPDKX9

to this crop sprayer at over 27kg https://www.amazon.com/Payload-Remote-Control-Agricultural-Spraying/dp/B0DNW28D7S/

As to what happens when one gets sucked into a jet turbine, it isn't pretty:

https://www.airsight.com/en/news/th...n-a-drone-gets-sucked-into-a-jet-engine-video

External Quote:
"Javid Bayondor is the founder and director of the CRashworthiness for Aerospace Structures and Hybrids (CRASH) Lab at UB. The lab has built a database of more than 150 UAS models and investigated the potential damage they can cause to a wide range of manned aircraft during impact."


https://www.airsight.com/en/news/th...n-a-drone-gets-sucked-into-a-jet-engine-video
 
deirdre said:
i doubt it would be reduced to rubble. and its not a gazillion dollars. and it wouldn't be unknown, they'd be looking at it with their eyeballs
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Let's pretend you have a serious point, instead of just your usual habit of pooh-pooling things other people say. At the speed a jet approaches an airborne item, how long would a pilot have to look at a small object? Would it be more than a fraction of a second? If it's a fighter jet of modest speed, say 1400mph, it travels 2000 feet per second, and if you're talking about a hobby-sized drone, 2000 feet is a long distance over which to spot it at all, and of course it would have to be much closer before it could be identified.

"Reduced to rubble"? See @Gary C 's post #63, above. Disabling a jet in mid-air leads to the inevitable result of allowing gravity to take over. As I recall in "Driving Miss Daisy", Morgan Freeman says something like "If the car breaks down, there you is. If the plane breaks down, there you ain't."

A gazillion? Shorthand for "I don't know the price, but it's a lot". A fighter jet can cost in the vicinity of a hundred million dollars.
 
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