Mick West's Income

[Mick West]

As someone who comments on contentious topics (notably UFOs), I'm sometimes accused of being a paid shill or part of a disinformation effort. I am not. What follows is a factual summary of my income sources, to the extent I can disclose them.

The only limitations are standard ones: client confidentiality and, in a few cases, nondisclosure of exact payment amounts.


INVESTMENT INCOME
I was a founder and co-owner of Neversoft Entertainment, which was acquired by Activision after the success of the Tony Hawk series. I left several years later. Investment returns from that exit remain a significant part of my income. In practical terms, I am semi-retired and largely living off savings.


CODING / CONSULTING
I occasionally do contract programming work at standard senior-level rates. One client, whose identity is confidential, funds continued development of Sitrec, an open-source web app I created for analyzing UAP cases, especially those involving video.
All funded work is published openly in the public GitHub repository and is available for inspection and noncommercial use.

Because confidentiality was explicitly requested, I have a standing no-comment policy on any questions about that work, including speculation about who the client might or might not be.


TV APPEARANCES
I sometimes appear on news programs, documentaries, or TV series. I am not paid for news or public-television appearances. For some productions, I charge a modest per-diem. Most recently, this involved a few days of recording for The Proof Is Out There.


BOOK ROYALTIES
I authored Escaping the Rabbit Hole (2018; revised edition 2023). Royalties are modest and recurring.


WRITING
I write approximately five or six articles per year for Skeptical Inquirer, paid at typical niche-publication rates. I also occasionally write for other outlets (roughly 2–3 pieces per year), with pay generally ranging from low hundreds to around $1,000.


ADVERTISING / PLATFORMS
Metabunk carries a single ad for my book, which generates negligible income.
My YouTube channel was demonetized for many years and only recently restored; current revenue is trivial.
On X, I earn roughly $30–$100 per month, which offsets the cost of an X Pro subscription.


NOT SOURCES OF INCOME
I do not receive donations, have no Patreon, and have no sponsor. Metabunk operates at a monthly loss.
I do not participate in disinformation, astroturfing, anonymous influence campaigns, or deliberate misrepresentation, paid or otherwise.

 

[John J.]

Sadly, those who make unfounded accusations will never be content, whatever assurances are given or evidence offered.

 

[RTM]

Considering the proliferation of UFO talking heads and their inability to hold the evidence presented to any serious scrutiny, these accusations are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Metabunk operates at a monthly loss.

First of all, a heart felt thanks for Metabunk!

The fact that every other forum out there is borderline unreadable with the constant barrage of flashing, blinking ads and pop-up videos, makes this place a visual relief if nothing else.

Of course, the fact that it can operate for years with NO adverts of any kind just proves Metabunk is part of a government sponsored disinfo shill organization. Nice try

On a serious note, I can only speak for myself, but if there were some sort of small fee subscription that allowed me, or others, to contribute to the financial viability of Metabunk, I'm in. No special access or VIP/Patron only stuff, just a small contribution from us other disinfo agents flush with shill money.

 

[Mendel]

Thank you! Now I really want to see the UFOlogy VIPs follow suit, and disclose their revenue streams!

 

[Edward Current]

Thank you! Now I really want to see the UFOlogy VIPs follow suit, and disclose their revenue streams!

I would like to see every activist and political influencer have to disclose their revenue streams. Kind of amazing that rando accounts can tweet 10x a day, get hundreds of thousands of engagements, and we have no idea what exactly is behind it.

 

[Montauk]

One client, whose identity is confidential, funds continued development of Sitrec, an open-source web app I created for analyzing UAP cases, especially those involving video.

This seems to be one the true believers and grifted latch onto. Like, god forbid someone support someone's projects. They ironically have no qualms about the anonymous donors funding their wacky alien "investigations" like Skinwalker and others.

 

[deirdre]

They ironically have no qualms about the anonymous donors funding their wacky alien "investigations" like Skinwalker

there are anonymous donors funding Skinwalker? why? they've got a super rich guy owning it, and a very popular tv show making money.

 

[Hevach]

It's highly normalized in social media content to have some form of donation - from the old PayPal tip jars to YouTube Superchats to Patreon or Cofi memberships. And just because some people are making big bucks already how many people making big bucks have you ever seen to say, "I am making enough money, keep yours for yourself"?

 

[Trailblazer]

I was a founder and co-owner of Neversoft Entertainment, which was acquired by Activision after the success of the Tony Hawk series. I left several years later. Investment returns from that exit remain a significant part of my income. In practical terms, I am semi-retired and largely living off savings.

I think perhaps the people who accuse Mick of being a "paid shill" never appreciated how massive those games were. I always assumed he must have done pretty well out of that.

Just going by what is easily findable on public sites, that deal valued Neversoft at over $12 million, paid for in Activision stock.

Activision will hand over 700,000 shares of common stock, valuing the deal at $12.3m, based on Friday's closing price of $17.50.

Source

Activision was bought by Microsoft at $95 a share in 2023, so, anyone who came into a chunk of ATVI stock in 1999 probably did pretty well, unless their financial skills are even worse than mine.

 

[deirdre]

I think perhaps the people who accuse Mick of being a "paid shill" never appreciated how massive those games were. I always assumed he must have done pretty well out of that.

Just going by what is easily findable on public sites, that deal valued Neversoft at over $12 million, paid for in Activision stock.

Activision will hand over 700,000 shares of common stock, valuing the deal at $12.3m, based on Friday's closing price of $17.50.

Source

Activision was bought by Microsoft at $95 a share in 2023, so, anyone who came into a chunk of ATVI stock in 1999 probably did pretty well, unless their financial skills are even worse than mine.

He wrote a similar thread like 10 years ago detailing his retirement deal ($$) and how much his debunking hobby cost him out of pocket back then. like many threads i try searching for with this crap search engine (maybe someone can pay him to fix the thread search!) , i cant find it now and don't want to paraphrase.

he retired rather well off. (not like Skinwalker guy well off! but normal people pretty damn well off)

which is why i dont know why he keeps bringing up this piddley shit income he is now making from 'debunking' ufo people and Republicans. or why he is even taking the piddley income instead of maintaining his "hobby" status. I guess once he wrote the book and decided he could no longer call his hobby a hobby*, he decided the ship had sailed.

* he could have still called it a hobby because its not really income until you net after "billing" for hours.

 

[Mick West]

which is why i dont know why he keeps bringing up this piddley shit income he is now making from 'debunking' ufo people and Republicans.

Mostly UFOs. I bring it up because people ask. And while I did okay out of videogames, I left 20 years ago, and I should have stayed a bit longer, so additional income is still useful. While investigating UFOs is fun, I would at least like to cover my costs. I just won't do it dishonestly.

Hence, when people ask who pays me for some, I like to have a very clear answer about what I'm paid, and why, as much as is legally and morally possible.

 

[deirdre]

I bring it up because people ask

do they know you've been debunking -everything under the sun- as a hobby for twenty years? i miss the ghost and creature sighting threads.. you should get back into that topic once in a while.

 

[Trailblazer]

He wrote a similar thread like 10 years ago detailing his retirement deal ($$) and how much his debunking hobby cost him out of pocket back then.

Mick also addressed this in the Dane Wigington debate which was in 2013 - just in case anyone thinks this is a recent "cover-up"...

Mick: Right, so my background is I'm a computer programmer, I'm from England, you can probably tell that by my accent, and I came to America about 20 years ago, and I started a software company that did fairly well, and about 10 years ago I kind of went into semi-retirement so I have a lot of spare time now and I just kind of do a bit of consulting work, and, one of the things I do with my spare time is debunking, which has always been a hobby of mine. I've always found it really interesting the science behind the claims, things like chemtrails, various other things like that, 9/11 debunking, things like that.

[...]

John [Massaria]: Okay. Mick, do you do this for any sort of compensation or money?

Mick: No, not at all, like I said I semi-retired about ten years ago, I did fairly well in the video game industry, so I don't really need to have an income. I'm not like super rich, but I don't need to, you know, pull in money. You'll notice there's no adverts on my website or anything like that. And no one is paying me to do it

 

[John J.]

i miss the ghost and creature sighting threads.. you should get back into that topic once in a while.

I guess it's up to us (the members here) to start threads about these subjects. I like them as well; they're rarely associated with conspiracy theories and ill-tempered allegations of "misinformation agents" etc. etc. and sometimes it's fun to read an unusual claim, and try and understand what might be happening, without shrill claims of cover-ups and that these things definitely exist but their existence is being hidden from us by the Bad Guys (as often seems to be the case with UFO claims).

 

[JMartJr]

i miss the ghost and creature sighting threads.. you should get back into that topic once in a while.

Non-UFO woo must still be out there, if we find it we can post about it.

It's been a long time since I've seen anything "ghostly" (or more often claimed as telekinesis these days) where the debunk could be more than saying "Here, here is a link to a video about how to use 'invisible' magician's thread, I think you can see that the dollar bill (or whatever) is dangling on a thread if you look again."

But yeah, if I come across any new cryptid claims or anything ghost-ish that is worth messing with, I'd be happy to see it discussed here and will share it! ^_^

 

[deirdre]

they're rarely associated with conspiracy theories and ill-tempered allegations of "misinformation agents"

exactly.

 

[Ann K]

i miss the ghost and creature sighting threads.. you should get back into that topic once in a while.

Got any to post? I mean, any that are newer than the Bigfoot thread. It's not up to Mick to provide entertainment, you know.

 

[deirdre]

Got any to post? I mean, any that are newer than the Bigfoot thread. It's not up to Mick to provide entertainment, you know.

if Mick doesnt want people to think he's a ufo shill he should debunk other things. that's what i was going for. I'm aware i can post my own threads. I'm aware other members of MB could go out and find viral bunk to post that has nothing to do with UFOs. But if Mick doesnt participate it's not gonna help his dilemma.

 

[Edward Current]

It's almost like UFOs are the only game in town. And, paranormal stuff has become endemic in the UFO world. But one cannot debunk stories of poltergeists following UFO researchers home and whatnot, as there is nothing to analyze.

 

[JMartJr]

But if Mick doesnt participate it's not gonna help his dilemma.

I'm not sure anything will. A canard that us not based in factwill not be refuted by demonstrating new facts.

Mick destroyed the videos they based the whole UFO resurgence us based on. His debunks have survived every attempt to "rebunk" them. That leaves the option of admitting they were wrong, or attacking the messenger.

 

[Jay Y]

there are anonymous donors funding Skinwalker? why? they've got a super rich guy owning it, and a very popular tv show making money.

I think they were called 'US taxpayers'.

 

[Hevach]

Conspiracy theories go in fads. Right now cryptids and chemtrails are out of fashion - the usual sources are quiet and most of those communities are treading water on the same things that have been litigated to death already.

Most of the output is in Flat Earth (which is active but is incredibly repetitive and rarely comes up with something that isn't just the same old already debunked points) and UFOs (which generate tons of new images and videos and are host to an active predatory hoax community to boot).

I will add that I expect a big influx of actual new claims from space denialists next month, likely exacerbated over the next few years by just how little of the Artemis program is actually funded past this mission.

 

[purpleivan]

For bunk that comes with some kind of photographic or video evidence, UFO's in the form of "orbs" have managed to thrive in the world of ubiquitous camera tech, sitting in most peoples pockets, as dots of lights in the sky can still be perceived as "evidence" of something unearthly.

Cryptid stuff seems to have become UFOlogy's poor cousin, as a dark dot in the distance on the ground, doesn't look particularly strange, but bright dots in the night sky do (especially if moving), at least to a significant number of people.. Add to this the arrival of Starlink on the scene (which seem to occupy a pretty healthy percentage of reports getting looked at here these days), providing additional sources to boost UFO reports, at the same time that ghosts and cryptids seem to have fallen by the wayside to some extent.

Photos of ghosts seem to have been in decline for a long time, especially since the widespread use of colour film. Maybe that's a coincidence, but possibly it's related to the extra visual information that colour provides, making these harder to not see as something mundane (plus probably harder to fake too). The modern replacement for ghost pics seem to be a variety of "ghostly movement" videos (e.g. bed sheets apparently moving on their own) caught on indoor security cams, but as these cams have improved in resolution and general quality, then reports of these too seem to have dimished in number, at the same time as use of these cameras has increased.

To a large extent it's the ability of UFOs to live much deeper in the Low Information Zone and still seem wierd, at lease to a lot of people, that's given them their longevity. Add to that the large cultural presence of aliens in varous forms, in all sorts of media, compared with that of ghosts or cryptids, and it's no surprise that a dot in the sky will, for some at least, be seen as evidence of something unearthly, whereas dark dots or smudges seen elsewhere, largely get ignored.

 

[Mendel]

Conspiracy theories go in fads. Right now cryptids and chemtrails are out of fashion - the usual sources are quiet and most of those communities are treading water on the same things that have been litigated to death already.

Chemtrails have gained political traction, with laws in some states.

Most of the output is in Flat Earth (which is active but is incredibly repetitive and rarely comes up with something that isn't just the same old already debunked points)

A lot of FE takes place on Youtube, and there are established debunkers like SciManDan, ConspiracyCatz, and others. We could still do FE debunks (I just proved the globe to myself again on a walk the other day), if someone posted a claim, but in all likelihood it's already been debunked by someone else.
Mick's curve calculator and Walter Bislins 3D tool exist; Bislins tool made debunking 90% of FE claims as easy as Sitrec does for UFO debunks.

and UFOs (which generate tons of new images and videos and are host to an active predatory hoax community to boot).

And topics are fluid, e.g. Varginha or the Maussan mummies are a convergence of Cryptid and UFO lores.

 

[JMartJr]

Chemtrails have gained political traction, with laws in some states.

Yeah but...
From what I have seen, the social media facet of this is just posting videos of a sky with contrails in it, often with comments like "They are spraying a lot to day" or "the sprayers are out in force today!" There is no variety and nothing to work with. Would not make for a good thread -- how many of us would have much to say about Yet Another Contrail Picture beyond "it's contrails, let me explain again what a contrail is?"

(I have a "copyypasta" to copy and paste in the comments of contrail videos, copied below for anybody interested. I doubt it does much good, but it might reach somebody on the brink of falling for the hoax, and costs me nothing, so might as well try... Spoilered below to spare those who are not interested! ^_^)

Spoiler: Contrrail copypasta

That is a contrail. Contrails are long clouds that form behind planes when conditions are right for cloud formation.
Can contrails persist? Yes, of course, because they are clouds and clouds can persist. Do the sometimes dissiapte quickly? Yes, that's a thing clouds also do sometimes, and they are just clouds. Can they spread? Yes, clouds can spread, too. Do they form on some days but not others? Yeah, clouds can do that. Might there sometimes be just one, and other times the sky is full of them? Yes, that is a thing clouds do, and contrails are clouds. They do anything that clouds can do… because they are clouds.

The thing is, people who want you to live your life in fear, to make money off of your attention through advertising, or sell you books, or get you in their Patreon -- or just to make you easier to control because fear of nothing is a distraction from things that actually matter -- are trying to make you scared of clouds. Clouds. They think THAT little of you, they want you to live in fear of clouds.

Good news is, you don't have to fall for it. You don;t have to be afraid of clouds.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah but...
From what I have seen, the social media facet of this is just posting videos of a sky with contrails in it, often with comments like "They are spraying a lot to day" or "the sprayers are out in force today!" There is no variety and nothing to work with.

I'd disagree. We now have congressmen and state representatives talking about it, and laws being passed based on these misconceptions. I would say chemtrails are having a real renaissance after being overshadowed by Covid conspiracies for a few years.

 

[deirdre]

Yeah but...

i think people are missing the original point. The thread/OP topic is Mick West being accused of being a ufo shill or part of a disinformation campaign.

is he a UFO Debunker exclusively or is he just a Debunker, and ufos are just another thing to debunk.

(I'm also not saying he needs to debunk "other stuff" even 50% of the time... just saying even 10% of non-government related debunks FROM MICK might take the edge off for some UFO people. PLUS, people sensitive to ufo debunks might pick up skills they can transfer from non-threatening debunks. Like ghosts/cryptids can teach about camera glitches, bokahs, glare, and LIZ, misidentified distances etc etc.
Anyway, that was the point(s) i was speaking to)

 

[JMartJr]

I'd disagree. We now have congressmen and state representatives talking about it, and laws being passed based on these misconceptions. I would say chemtrails are having a real renaissance after being overshadowed by Covid conspiracies for a few years.

Oh I agree with that -- there just isn;t much to work with among the flood of chemtrail stuff posted on social media, is all I was saying. Proposals made to "deal with" nonexistent chemtrails might provide more material to work with, points that can be refuted, in a way that social media posts these daysosually do not.

i think people are missing the original point

God ol' thread drift!

. The thread/OP topic is Mick West being accused of being a ufo shill or part of a disinformation campaign.

Oh shoot, we're in that thread -- I thought I was in the one that split off.

Folks, should we move over there if we want to further discuss this stuff, worth discussing but not really on topic here.

 

[GM4AJK]

Oh shoot, we're in that thread -- I thought I was in the one that split off.

This would be this thread.

As for Mick West, I was under the impression that he's only interested in analysing things with photos or videos. Everything else (witness stories, for example) can't help but be opinions. Debunkers simply want physical evidence; everything else is Jackanory. I'd be interested to hear if my understanding here is correct, because it's not nice to assume what other people do and/or want.

 

[Ann K]

This would be this thread.

As for Mick West, I was under the impression that he's only interested in analysing things with photos or videos. Everything else (witness stories, for example) can't help but be opinions. Debunkers simply want physical evidence; everything else is Jackanory. I'd be interested to hear if my understanding here is correct, because it's not nice to assume what other people do and/or want.

This site has a reader-generated range of topics, so what Mick himself is interested in isn't really significant. It's not as if photos supplant opinions; consider the endless number of posts about the Calvine photo, for example. Nevertheless, there's no more info to be gained from a mere verbal account.

 

[RTM]

Yeah but...
From what I have seen, the social media facet of this is just posting videos of a sky with contrails in it, often with comments like "They are spraying a lot to day" or "the sprayers are out in force today!" There is no variety and nothing to work with. Would not make for a good thread -- how many of us would have much to say about Yet Another Contrail Picture beyond "it's contrails, let me explain again what a contrail is?"

(I have a "copyypasta" to copy and paste in the comments of contrail videos, copied below for anybody interested. I doubt it does much good, but it might reach somebody on the brink of falling for the hoax, and costs me nothing, so might as well try... Spoilered below to spare those who are not interested! ^_^)

Spoiler: Contrrail copypasta

That is a contrail. Contrails are long clouds that form behind planes when conditions are right for cloud formation.
Can contrails persist? Yes, of course, because they are clouds and clouds can persist. Do the sometimes dissiapte quickly? Yes, that's a thing clouds also do sometimes, and they are just clouds. Can they spread? Yes, clouds can spread, too. Do they form on some days but not others? Yeah, clouds can do that. Might there sometimes be just one, and other times the sky is full of them? Yes, that is a thing clouds do, and contrails are clouds. They do anything that clouds can do… because they are clouds.

The thing is, people who want you to live your life in fear, to make money off of your attention through advertising, or sell you books, or get you in their Patreon -- or just to make you easier to control because fear of nothing is a distraction from things that actually matter -- are trying to make you scared of clouds. Clouds. They think THAT little of you, they want you to live in fear of clouds.

Good news is, you don't have to fall for it. You don;t have to be afraid of clouds.

One way to grab attention might be to state that they are a chemical called dihydrogen monoxide, that is responsible for killing thousands every year.

 

[Mendel]

As for Mick West, I was under the impression that he's only interested in analysing things with photos or videos. Everything else (witness stories, for example) can't help but be opinions.

If you look in the posting guidelines (found under 'Info' in the site menu), you'll find that Metabunk is set up to debunk 'claims of evidence'. Witness statements can be evidence, but their value varies with the circumstances. For example, the Ariel school sighting is interesting beccause there were many witnesses.

Mick started debunking (and pre-bunking) with contrails and https://contrailscience.com/ , so any conspiracy theory probably has to explain how this independently wealthy gentleman was bought by "big chemtrail". Since a major political force in the UFO disclosure movement is "pilot-led" ASA, one hopes that this would be a non-starter.

 

[deirdre]

Mick started debunking (and pre-bunking) with contrails

Morgellons was before chemtrails.

It's not as if photos supplant opinions;

sure they do [...]

Spoiler

 

[Smythe Bacchus]

Since AARO isn't telling the "believers" what they want to hear, then naturally it must be part of an alleged "conspiracy".


Source: https://x.com/PostDisclosure/status/2012646432864391344

This persistent line of questioning Mick's income sources is a thinly veiled accusation that he is an agent for the "conspiracy".


Source: https://x.com/MickWest/status/2013040497707606116

Others just just make the accusations outright.


Source: https://x.com/MickWest/status/2012935782999138412

Of course, Sitrec must also be a "BS app" (I'll interpret this as an acknowledgement of its success and efficacy in exposing "BS").


Source: https://x.com/SKEPTICLBELIEVR/status/2012454551085817961

To my mind, such people appear like psychosomatic addicts that are upset by any notion that the "drugs" which get them high are not real, and the supposedly even better drugs (mind blowing evidence) are being hidden from them.

This metaphor is not intended to be insulting. It explains why such persons experiencing withdrawal (i.e. lack of new stimulus) are easily exploited. They will desperately cling to any claims of "evidence", old or new, no matter how dubious.

This is an example of resurrecting a thoroughly debunked case, by implying that Mick is an insider involved in a "coverup".


Source: https://x.com/MickWest/status/2014932563794722869

The desperate efforts to try and catch Mick in a deception will not stop. At least for some, that is one of the few straws left to clutch upon.

Hats off to Mick for being as open as possible. For the reasons I've touched upon, it's almost a wasted effort. I expect Mick is cognizant of this. And that sends a clear message about his personal integrity (whether anyone is listening or not).

I reckon Mick should just lean into the whole "MiB" persona, e.g., by dressing the part in all appearances, as in the AI mock up below. He should definitely carry a suspicious looking device (aka a "Common Sense Neuralyzer") in his pocket.

 

[jarlrmai]

We should be cognisant that every reply Mick makes is also for the "invisible audience", people who might not be vocal but watch the conversation and see the tone of accusations and the replies.

 

[deirdre]

We should be cognisant that every reply Mick makes is also for the "invisible audience", people who might not be vocal but watch the conversation and see the tone of accusations and the replies.

i dont think "polite" fixes the "i make an undisclosed amount of money from a client i can't name or hint at to build the UFO debunking tool" revelation. In fact, polite just makes it worse. Of course a government employee would be polite!

He should have just said "i made $10,000 last year (which just about covers my electric bill) from an anonymous patreon to support my ongoing programming work on my open source sitrec tool".

or.."Listen you dorkwad, ever hear of the Tony Hawk video games, ever hear of Guitar Hero? If you think i need the piddley ass money we get from arguing on Twitter and Reddit, you're delusional. My wife bitches at me enough about the time i spend at the computer arguing about fuzzy blobs in the sky, i dont need you bitching at me too."

He's the one who chose to make it all sound suspicious! (unless y'all are just trolling the UFOers with all this cloak and dagger stuff, in which case... oh.)

 

[Mick West]

i dont think "polite" fixes the "i make an undisclosed amount of money from a client i can't name or hint at to build the UFO debunking tool" revelation. In fact, polite just makes it worse. Of course a government employee would be polite!

Being polite and occasionally sarcastic is just my natural state. I can't change my spots.

 

[deirdre]

Being polite and occasionally sarcastic is just my natural state. I can't change my spots.

I know.

 

[JMartJr]

Of course a government employee would be polite!

Has you been to the DMV?