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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    On July 24th, 2019, the Franklin Square and Munson Board of Fire Commissioners passed a resolution stating that:

    Source: https://www.ae911truth.org/news/540...-make-history-call-for-new-9-11-investigation

    This has been promoted by Architicts and Engineers for 9/11 Truth as:
    The actual fire department is diplomatically referring questions back to the Commission:
    I have mixed feelings about this. One the one hand it's a worrying development when local government commission are wasting time with baseless conspiracy theories. But on the other hand there are times when sunlight is the best disinfectant. Bring these type of claims out from dark corners of the internet into a genuine public forum might help shed some new light on the topic for people who have been looking at one side only for far too long.
     
  2. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    I think a lot of people are going to be confused about what a Fire Commission/er is. It sounds very impressive and as if these people are experts in fire science. These are not Fire Chiefs.

    So far this is the best description I can find though it is from a different part of the country. But this, I think, is typical. A fire commissioner doesn't necessarily have any experience in firefighting or education in fire science. It's a minor elected position and duties are administrative.

    https://ccfd3.org/about-the-district/board-of-commissioners

    Notice it doesn't say anything about fire fighting experience. Not even administrative experience.

    One doesn't even have to be elected. It's typical for there to be a long standing open seat on county commissions of all kinds. Much of the time you only have to get through the application process.

    Does even one of the people on this particular commission have any relevant education or experience when it comes to the subject at hand?



    From the Nassau County site. This isn't as clear as the description above from another county site, but it gives pretty much the same description of what the commission actually is.

    https://www.runforoffice.org/electe...n-fire-district-board-of-commissioners-seat-1

     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
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  3. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    [​IMG]

    Five of the commissioners in this photo are wearing uniforms with patches and badges.

    I can find information on only 2 of those 5 that definitely identifies them as commissioners on this board. One is a pharmacist and the other is a "Litigation Manager," whatever that is exactly. Neither has ever been employed by any F.D. other than as a commissioner on the board. Evidently they are given the honorary right to wear these uniforms.

    These are public spirited people and I don't want to negatively criticize them, but so far I haven't found anyone that has relevant education or experience that would place them above any other layman on this subject. It seems to me they are voting with their heart.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
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  4. mudr0

    mudr0 New Member

    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  5. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    Someone linked to relevant NY State law governing Fire Districts:
    https://www.nysenate.mgov/legislation/laws/TWN/A11

    It seems the only qualification a Fire District Commissioner needs to have, besides being adult and such, is that they have not been convicted of arson.


    Wikipedia knows that Franklin Square has a volunteer fire department:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Square,_New_York#Town_infrastructure
    So this may explain why some of the Commissioners wear a uniform despite their not being fre fighters by profession.
     
  6. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The head of the board, Chris Gioia, was a firefighter. Chief of Franklin Square and Munson Fire Department.

    http://liherald.com/franklinsquare/stories/One-more-for-commish,74236
     
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  7. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

  8. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    I'd already identified him as the ramrod behind this. Just pure speculation on my part: The vote was unanimous but that doesn't mean everyone on the board is really in agreement. Perhaps at least some simply read the mood of the room (which seems pretty passionate) and decided to go along with it.

    It's not an administrative issue after all.
     
  9. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    A litigation manager is usually a paralegal (but sometimes a staff attorney) who specializes in docket management and/or litigation logistics (e.g., arranging couriers for filings, renting work space and hotel rooms near a courtroom, etc.).

    As for the actual resolution here, there is nothing new or interesting about it. It just amounts to the same evidence-free platitudes that have been espoused by many other 9-11 conspiracy theorists, showing no more than that, for whatever reason, these people (or at least a number of them) fell for such evidence-free theories. Not exactly a game changer for the conspiracy theorists or their theories.
     
  10. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    It was in response to:
     
  11. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    oh I see your interpretation now. thanks!

    Most of our firefighters in Connecticut are volunteers, so it never occurred to me volunteer firefighters aren't considered "professional" firefighters. ie. wear the uniform.
    https://portal.ct.gov/CFPC/Frequently-Asked-Questions


    add: (and they do all wear the uniform, fyi, can google 'newtown funeral firefighter' images)
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  12. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    The world will little note, nor long remember this resolution.
     
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  13. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Sent yesterday evening, via the Metabunk contact form. He sent another note requesting that I post it here.

     
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  14. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    "your staff" ? I didn't say anything.

    I was going to point out that the Commissioner Board probably doesn't know that there isn't any evidence in the petition that hasn't already been debunked and/or explained. So since he's reading i'll point it out now (and the fact that I support the Grand Jury investigation too.. i'm tired of families being emotionally manipulated by A&E ..I greatly hope the Grand Jury makes their findings public, so these families can get some peace)
     
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  15. qed

    qed Senior Member

    For clarity, is a Grand Jury definitively happening, or might it happen?
     
  16. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

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  17. Gamolon

    Gamolon New Member

    Question.

    Does he know that the fire department posted a disclaimer on their Facebook page regarding the resolution to support the petition?
    https://www.facebook.com/franklin.munsonfd/

    I would be curious to know which "opinions" stated by the commissioners the fire department doesn't necessarily agree with.
     
  18. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    They aren't the Borg. I imagine each individual firefighter has their own opinions. There are three different possible points of contention just in this paragraph alone.

     
  19. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    If Mr. Gioia is reading this I hope he understands that the criticism of his resolution is not a criticism of him personally.

    A lot has been written on this site about the "truther" ideology and the main organizations that support it. While some of the loudest truther advocates have demonstrated various degrees of dishonesty and ignorance at times, I think this is a site that recognizes that conspiracy theorists such as truthers can be nice, smart, caring and thoughtful people who otherwise live productive, relatively normal lives. When the conspiracy theory bug infects someone, they tend to become myopic, but that doesn't mean they are stupid or a bad person.

    I don't doubt that Mr. Gioia's motives are right--he wants justice for those he lost in the face of tragedy that is almost incomprehensible in magnitude from the perspective of ordinary experience. But, Mr. Gioia, I believe you have been led astray by a contingent of dishonest people who are making quite a lot of money by misrepresenting unnecessary legal filings (among other things) as something they are not. I urge you and others to read the thread Mick linked re the grand jury filing. This is not an effort being made in good faith to actually make a difference; it's just a cynical publicity stunt that AE911Truth and a small contingent of affiliated lawyers are using to make money. Nothing further will ever come of that filing because the arguments it contains are a mix of misleading, frivolous and counterfactual.

    Going beyond that filing, Mr. Gioia and others curious about this subject should browse the forums here for many other debunks of claims made by AE911Truth, not one of which AE911Truth has ever rebutted, though its management certainly knows of them. Mr. Gioia fell for their lies this time, but hopefully Mr. Gioia and his fellow travelers can spend some time here educating themselves on AE911Truth's many years of lies and publicity stunts so that they can avoid playing a role in furthering such lies going forward.
     
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  20. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    I was thinking along the same lines. You've expressed my thoughts very well.

    If you're reading this, Mr. Gioia, I'd just like to add that you've gone through more than we should ask anyone to go through. It's clear that you've got psychological wounds. In my opinion, the route you're taking won't lead to anything to help that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
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  21. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    I think Mr. Gioia is wrong, or misled, on several points, and his intentions, while understandable on a most personal level, ought to be rejected as part of a public service action. Point by point:

    I think this is overstating the current status of the petition, as far as it is known: The U.S. Attorneys merely issued a note of receipt of the mail package, along with the remark that they would follow the law as it applies to such a submission - which of f course would go without saying.
    The word "accept" implies a connotation that the U.S. Attorneys view the filing by the Lawyers' Committee

    You have been misinformed about what the law says. No Grand Jury (GJ) needs to be convened, as the District already has (at least one) standing Grand Jury, and there is no requirement to actually investigate. All that the law demands is that a GJ be informed by the US Attorneys of a submission and the identity of the submitter, along with a comment by the US Attorney, who may, if they so choose, make recommendations.

    Granted.
    It seems quite likely to me, […], that the GJ has already decided not to pursue this submissin as it is, in fact, baseless, but as a general rule, such a decision is not cmmunicated back to the submitter. Thus, it may turn out that we will never hear back from the GJ or the US Attorneys. The more recent "Mandamus" filing by the Lawyers' Committee, which has the intent of having a court force the US Attorneys to give feedback, may likewise go nowhere, as there exists no legal obligation on the part of the US Attorneys or GJ to give such feedback.
    Essentially, it appears to me that the Lawyers' Committee, while knowing full well that the petition is already dead, will drag procedings out for as long as they can, with the intention to incur fees to themselves from donations collected from naive followers.

    I understand the sentiment on a most personal level. It's perhaps akin to having a chronic or incurable illness, or a loved one with such a desease, and little hope that mainstream medicine will provide healing - many will then turn to quackery. If you turn to quackery on your own financial and emotional resources, that's your prerogative. I have been there: My girl friend suffered from an incurable brain cancer, and together we consulted and tried alternative approaches. It certainly was a comforting experience to at least be "doing something".
    But you are calling as a public body upon a public institution to spend tax payer money on what is, at the end of the day, quackery. That, in my opinion, is irresponsible.

    I am convinced that the Firemen, Policemen, and first responders have been heard, and the physical evidence has been vetted, by the various investigations. What we do not need is for these testimonies to get cherry picked, taken out of context, misrepresented, or for physical evidence to get ignored by the likes of AE911Truth.

    I think the victims deserve much better than to have their memory dragged into highly dubious and dishonest campaigns by a tiny fringe of people with, let's say, an idiosynchratic version of reality. Just to give you one example: A large proportion of the so-called "9/11 Truthers", including leaders and followers of AE911Truth - possibly even majorities of these groups - claim that American Airlines Flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon. This would imply that the passengers and crews of this flight did not perish inside the Pentagon, that their remains were not pulled from the Pentagon debris nor identified by DNA testing, and that consequently their loved ones did not, in fact, bury the victims. Can you imagine the emotional stress that such crazy, cynical lies could evoke in those relatives?

    The ideas of such "Truthers" do not deserve any public money being spent on their inevitable debunking.

    I see, Mr. Gioia, that you did an interview with AE911Truth's Andy Steele - who is one of those who claim that the vctims of flight AA77 are not actually victims of AA77's crash into the Pentagon. Did you know that?

    This site and its people will ALWAYS allow you to respond back as often as you want to.
    This is absolutely NOT true for many, most "9/11 Truthers", who generally practice heavy-handed censorship. For example, I am blocked from commenting on AE911Truth's Facebook page, and I am far from alone. I never insulted anyone there, all I did was state facts and criticise claims that I believed to be demonstrably wrong.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2019
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  22. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    provided they follow the posting guidelines.

    Granted, Mr. Gioia himself would be given a lot of latitude, but just saying...
     
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  23. Gamolon

    Gamolon New Member

    Based on the interview with Andy Steele, it seems that Mr. Gioia has had a "truther" mindset long before the petition was submitted to the AG.

    Source: https://www.ae911truth.org/news/541...york-area-fire-commissioner-christopher-gioia


     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
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  24. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Interesting. I'd like to point out he doesn't mention any of the family members asking for this resolution or even having looked at A&E's alleged "evidence".
    I'm pointing this out only because it is probably a common reaction to assume the Commission was approached by family members and they acted due to an emotional solidarity with family member(s) concerns. This is not to say some family members might not believe the petition, but it is a serious pet peeve of mine when others "speak for" family members of victims. Or assume things about family members due to media wording/optics.
     
  25. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Another email from Mr Gioia
     
  26. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    It's not money well spent because there is no legitimate evidence of explosives in their petition. and it won't be the end of it, conspiracy theorists will just claim the GJ is inept, which would be a reasonable claim to my ear anyway.

    [edit clarification add: I have no problem with the money spent. NY wastes so much money on things, that this is a mere drop in the bucket]



    Mr. Gioia's personal beliefs aside, i think the only thing wrong with the resolution was his/their wording. He could have said "the evidence presented demonstrates a possibility that incendiaries were used" vs.
    etc. The resolution does not sound at all objective or reasonable as written.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  27. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

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