On July 24th, 2019, the Franklin Square and Munson Board of Fire Commissioners passed a resolution stating that:
the overwhelming evidence presented in said petition demonstrates beyond any doubt that pre-planted explosives and/or incendiaries — not just airplanes and the ensuing fires — caused the destruction of the three World Trade Center buildings, killing the vast majority of the victims who perished that day;
Due to the recent vote by the Board of Fire Commissioners in regards to their resolution on launching a new 9/11 investigation, the department has received multiple questions and emails on the topic. The opinions of the Franklin Square and Munson Board of Fire Commissioners does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Chiefs, Officers and Members of the Fire Department.
Please direct all questions about the resolution to Commissioner Chris Gioia 516-488-1858 Ext 141
I have mixed feelings about this. One the one hand it's a worrying development when local government commission are wasting time with baseless conspiracy theories. But on the other hand there are times when sunlight is the best disinfectant. Bring these type of claims out from dark corners of the internet into a genuine public forum might help shed some new light on the topic for people who have been looking at one side only for far too long.
I think a lot of people are going to be confused about what a Fire Commission/er is. It sounds very impressive and as if these people are experts in fire science. These are not Fire Chiefs.
So far this is the best description I can find though it is from a different part of the country. But this, I think, is typical. A fire commissioner doesn't necessarily have any experience in firefighting or education in fire science. It's a minor elected position and duties are administrative.
What is a fire commissioner? Commissioners are elected by the public to represent their fire district. The Board is responsible for setting budgets, establishing policy and providing administrative oversight. They serve six-year terms. Each commissioner is obligated to attend board meetings regularly.
Are there any additional duties of a Fire Commissioner? The District’s Commissioners are members of the Washington State Fire Commissioners Association and play an active role in that organization. Commissioners represent the Fire District at community events and also attend various events sponsored by the District.
Do fire commissioners get paid? Although they do not receive a salary, commissioners are minimally reimbursed by the Fire District for minor expenses. Per Washington State law, Fire Commissioners receive compensation of $114 per day, or a portion thereof, when attending Board meetings and for performing other services on behalf of the Fire District, not to exceed $10,944 annually.
What are the requirements to become a fire commissioner? A person may become a candidate by filing a declaration of candidacy with the county auditor during the July filing period. In the event that there are more than two candidates for a position, a primary election is held on the first Tuesday of August. The two candidates receiving the greatest number of votes will appear on the election ballot in November. A person is legally qualified to become a fire commissioner who is a United States citizen, a qualified voter, and resident of the fire protection district.
Notice it doesn't say anything about fire fighting experience. Not even administrative experience.
One doesn't even have to be elected. It's typical for there to be a long standing open seat on county commissions of all kinds. Much of the time you only have to get through the application process.
Does even one of the people on this particular commission have any relevant education or experience when it comes to the subject at hand?
From the Nassau County site. This isn't as clear as the description above from another county site, but it gives pretty much the same description of what the commission actually is.
A fire commissioner oversees fire services for a specific jurisdiction. Fire commissioners’ job duties generally are split into two categories—supervision of fire services provided and management of business policies, such as budgets and personnel. At the local level, fire commissioners are typically part of a larger fire commission board. The board sets the mission for the local fire department and individual commissioners are responsible for implementing measures to achieve that mission, as well as the power to levy taxes for fire service provided to the community. This position is a 5-year term.
APPLICATION GUIDELINES
Nassau County has over 1,000 elected offices and is governed by an assortment of offices on the county, municipal, and special district levels. Each of these entities administers their own elections, therefore, they must be contacted directly for election information. If you are interested in running, we strongly suggest calling the district as soon as possible to confirm information. In New York election law any paperwork filed late is considered a "fatal flaw" and the candidacy is nullified. There are general guidelines for district elections, but many districts have elections on unique dates. Please follow the instructions carefully. To file for this position, follow these three steps: 1) Contact the appropriate election administrator to confirm that your registered address qualifies for the position that you intend to run for, that you have the correct election and filing window dates, and that you meet any other qualifications. 2) Pick up the nominating petitions at the elections administrator's office. You should be able to ask questions regarding filing for office and have them clearly answered. If you have any issues regarding questions being answered by a district clerk, please contact the Nassau County Board of Elections at (516) 571-2411. 3) Gather the appropriate number of signatures and filing fee for the office and submit it to the election administrator within the filing window. Please note that these instructions are for an independent candidate. If you would like to run as a candidate of one of the major parties (Democrat, Republican, Green, Working Families, etc.) you will potentially have to adhere to a different timeline so that you can run in the primary. The New York State Office of the Comptroller may be able to help clarify information related to special districts, and we recommend contacting the district directly and if there is no response, consider lodging a formal complaint with the state comptroller.
Five of the commissioners in this photo are wearing uniforms with patches and badges.
I can find information on only 2 of those 5 that definitely identifies them as commissioners on this board. One is a pharmacist and the other is a "Litigation Manager," whatever that is exactly. Neither has ever been employed by any F.D. other than as a commissioner on the board. Evidently they are given the honorary right to wear these uniforms.
These are public spirited people and I don't want to negatively criticize them, but so far I haven't found anyone that has relevant education or experience that would place them above any other layman on this subject. It seems to me they are voting with their heart.
It seems the only qualification a Fire District Commissioner needs to have, besides being adult and such, is that they have not been convicted of arson.
Christopher Gioia, a 30-year member of the Franklin Square and Munson Fire Department has served as Chief from 2007-2012. He is also a veteran of the Marine Corps as well as an EMT for 25 years.
Christopher Gioia, a 30-year member of the Franklin Square and Munson Fire Department has served as Chief from 2007-2012. He is also a veteran of the Marine Corps as well as an EMT for 25 years.
I'd already identified him as the ramrod behind this. Just pure speculation on my part: The vote was unanimous but that doesn't mean everyone on the board is really in agreement. Perhaps at least some simply read the mood of the room (which seems pretty passionate) and decided to go along with it.
I can find information on only 2 of those 5 that definitely identifies them as commissioners on this board. One is a pharmacist and the other is a "Litigation Manager," whatever that is exactly. Neither has ever been employed by any F.D. other than as a commissioner on the board. Evidently they are given the honorary right to wear these uniforms.
A litigation manager is usually a paralegal (but sometimes a staff attorney) who specializes in docket management and/or litigation logistics (e.g., arranging couriers for filings, renting work space and hotel rooms near a courtroom, etc.).
As for the actual resolution here, there is nothing new or interesting about it. It just amounts to the same evidence-free platitudes that have been espoused by many other 9-11 conspiracy theorists, showing no more than that, for whatever reason, these people (or at least a number of them) fell for such evidence-free theories. Not exactly a game changer for the conspiracy theorists or their theories.
Five of the commissioners in this photo are wearing uniforms with patches and badges.
I can find information on only 2 of those 5 that definitely identifies them as commissioners on this board. One is a pharmacist and the other is a "Litigation Manager," whatever that is exactly. Neither has ever been employed by any F.D. other than as a commissioner on the board. Evidently they are given the honorary right to wear these uniforms.
....
Most of our firefighters in Connecticut are volunteers, so it never occurred to me volunteer firefighters aren't considered "professional" firefighters. ie. wear the uniform.
Q: How many fire fighters are there in Connecticut? (How many are volunteer? How many are career?)
A: There are about 26,800 fire fighters in Connecticut.
About 4,450 of them are career fire fighters.
About 22,350 are volunteer fire fighters
Statistics based upon membership statistics provided by the Connecticut State Firefighters Association for 2016/17.
…...
Q. What is a career fire fighter? Do volunteer fire fighters get paid?
A: Career fire fighters have full-time paid benefited jobs as fire fighters. Volunteers are any other people who fight fires. They may receive no pay at all, be paid on an hourly, or a per-cal/basis. Volunteer fire fighters typically have jobs and careers outside of fire fighting. Also, many volunteer departments offer incentives such as property tax abatement and length of service (pension) award programs.
Sent yesterday evening, via the Metabunk contact form. He sent another note requesting that I post it here.
Dear Mr. West,
This message is in regard to your website and the posts from members of your group regarding the passage of a 911 resolution by the Board of Fire Commissioners of the Franklin Square and Munson Fire District. Allow me this opportunity to respond back. First and foremost, the Fire District supports the petition that was accepted by the U.S. Attorney for the southern District of N.Y. Pursuant to Federal law the U.S. attorney has to convene a Federal Grand Jury to investigate the evidence presented in the Petition. If the Grand Jury looks over the evidence and decides that it is baseless then the issue will have been settled once and for all and to my satisfaction. If the Grand Jury Finds that the Petition has merit then let the facts dictate the direction the investigation will follow. I'm sure you would agree that if someone in your family was murdered for arguments sake, perhaps your wife or your children,and 18 years later there was new evidence to be looked at, you would want to look at it and decide for yourself if it was relevant. The testimony of Firemen, Policemen, and first responders made that day on 9/11 must not be ignored. The physical evidence that remains must not be ignored. My opinion and those of the people who would say otherwise doesn't matter. Its what can be proven in a court of law that matters. My friends were murdered Mr. West and I will never forget the stench of death that pervaded the air for months afterward as we searched in vain at the pile. So you and your staff are most certainly entitled to your opinions and I respect that but do not sit there in the comfort of your homes and pass judgement on me. I want justice for my murdered friends and I say if you and your staff are true Americans then you will support The Fire Department and the Federal Grand Jury Investigation. Thank you for allowing me to respond back.
Sincerely,
Christopher Gioia
Commissioner and Ex-Chief
F.S.M.F.D.
I was going to point out that the Commissioner Board probably doesn't know that there isn't any evidence in the petition that hasn't already been debunked and/or explained. So since he's reading i'll point it out now (and the fact that I support the Grand Jury investigation too.. i'm tired of families being emotionally manipulated by A&E ..I greatly hope the Grand Jury makes their findings public, so these families can get some peace)
The US attorney has not said. AE911Truth themselves describe it as "the (presumably) ongoing grand jury investigation in Lower Manhattan" (same article linked in the first post)
Sent yesterday evening, via the Metabunk contact form. He sent another note requesting that I post it here.
Dear Mr. West,
This message is in regard to your website and the posts from members of your group regarding the passage of a 911 resolution by the Board of Fire Commissioners of the Franklin Square and Munson Fire District. Allow me this opportunity to respond back. First and foremost, the Fire District supports the petition that was accepted by the U.S. Attorney for the southern District of N.Y. Pursuant to Federal law the U.S. attorney has to convene a Federal Grand Jury to investigate the evidence presented in the Petition. If the Grand Jury looks over the evidence and decides that it is baseless then the issue will have been settled once and for all and to my satisfaction. If the Grand Jury Finds that the Petition has merit then let the facts dictate the direction the investigation will follow. I'm sure you would agree that if someone in your family was murdered for arguments sake, perhaps your wife or your children,and 18 years later there was new evidence to be looked at, you would want to look at it and decide for yourself if it was relevant. The testimony of Firemen, Policemen, and first responders made that day on 9/11 must not be ignored. The physical evidence that remains must not be ignored. My opinion and those of the people who would say otherwise doesn't matter. Its what can be proven in a court of law that matters. My friends were murdered Mr. West and I will never forget the stench of death that pervaded the air for months afterward as we searched in vain at the pile. So you and your staff are most certainly entitled to your opinions and I respect that but do not sit there in the comfort of your homes and pass judgement on me. I want justice for my murdered friends and I say if you and your staff are true Americans then you will support The Fire Department and the Federal Grand Jury Investigation. Thank you for allowing me to respond back.
Sincerely,
Christopher Gioia
Commissioner and Ex-Chief
F.S.M.F.D.
Does he know that the fire department posted a disclaimer on their Facebook page regarding the resolution to support the petition? https://www.facebook.com/franklin.munsonfd/
Due to the recent vote by the Board of Fire Commissioners in regards to their resolution on launching a new 9/11 investigation, the department has received multiple questions and emails on the topic. The opinions of the Franklin Square and Munson Board of Fire Commissioners does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Chiefs, Officers and Members of the Fire Department.
Please direct all questions about the resolution to Commissioner Chris Gioia 516-488-1858 Ext 141
They aren't the Borg. I imagine each individual firefighter has their own opinions. There are three different possible points of contention just in this paragraph alone.
the overwhelming evidence presented in said petition demonstrates beyond any doubt that pre-planted explosives and/or incendiaries — not just airplanes and the ensuing fires — caused the destruction of the three World Trade Center buildings, killing the vast majority of the victims who perished that day;
If Mr. Gioia is reading this I hope he understands that the criticism of his resolution is not a criticism of him personally.
A lot has been written on this site about the "truther" ideology and the main organizations that support it. While some of the loudest truther advocates have demonstrated various degrees of dishonesty and ignorance at times, I think this is a site that recognizes that conspiracy theorists such as truthers can be nice, smart, caring and thoughtful people who otherwise live productive, relatively normal lives. When the conspiracy theory bug infects someone, they tend to become myopic, but that doesn't mean they are stupid or a bad person.
I don't doubt that Mr. Gioia's motives are right--he wants justice for those he lost in the face of tragedy that is almost incomprehensible in magnitude from the perspective of ordinary experience. But, Mr. Gioia, I believe you have been led astray by a contingent of dishonest people who are making quite a lot of money by misrepresenting unnecessary legal filings (among other things) as something they are not. I urge you and others to read the thread Mick linked re the grand jury filing. This is not an effort being made in good faith to actually make a difference; it's just a cynical publicity stunt that AE911Truth and a small contingent of affiliated lawyers are using to make money. Nothing further will ever come of that filing because the arguments it contains are a mix of misleading, frivolous and counterfactual.
Going beyond that filing, Mr. Gioia and others curious about this subject should browse the forums here for many other debunks of claims made by AE911Truth, not one of which AE911Truth has ever rebutted, though its management certainly knows of them. Mr. Gioia fell for their lies this time, but hopefully Mr. Gioia and his fellow travelers can spend some time here educating themselves on AE911Truth's many years of lies and publicity stunts so that they can avoid playing a role in furthering such lies going forward.
I was thinking along the same lines. You've expressed my thoughts very well.
If you're reading this, Mr. Gioia, I'd just like to add that you've gone through more than we should ask anyone to go through. It's clear that you've got psychological wounds. In my opinion, the route you're taking won't lead to anything to help that.
I think Mr. Gioia is wrong, or misled, on several points, and his intentions, while understandable on a most personal level, ought to be rejected as part of a public service action. Point by point:
Dear Mr. West,
...
First and foremost, the Fire District supports the petition that was accepted by the U.S. Attorney for the southern District of N.Y.
I think this is overstating the current status of the petition, as far as it is known: The U.S. Attorneys merely issued a note of receipt of the mail package, along with the remark that they would follow the law as it applies to such a submission - which of f course would go without saying.
The word "accept" implies a connotation that the U.S. Attorneys view the filing by the Lawyers' Committee
Pursuant to Federal law the U.S. attorney has to convene a Federal Grand Jury to investigate the evidence presented in the Petition.
You have been misinformed about what the law says. No Grand Jury (GJ) needs to be convened, as the District already has (at least one) standing Grand Jury, and there is no requirement to actually investigate. All that the law demands is that a GJ be informed by the US Attorneys of a submission and the identity of the submitter, along with a comment by the US Attorney, who may, if they so choose, make recommendations.
If the Grand Jury looks over the evidence and decides that it is baseless then the issue will have been settled once and for all and to my satisfaction. If the Grand Jury Finds that the Petition has merit then let the facts dictate the direction the investigation will follow.
Granted.
It seems quite likely to me, […], that the GJ has already decided not to pursue this submissin as it is, in fact, baseless, but as a general rule, such a decision is not cmmunicated back to the submitter. Thus, it may turn out that we will never hear back from the GJ or the US Attorneys. The more recent "Mandamus" filing by the Lawyers' Committee, which has the intent of having a court force the US Attorneys to give feedback, may likewise go nowhere, as there exists no legal obligation on the part of the US Attorneys or GJ to give such feedback.
Essentially, it appears to me that the Lawyers' Committee, while knowing full well that the petition is already dead, will drag procedings out for as long as they can, with the intention to incur fees to themselves from donations collected from naive followers.
I'm sure you would agree that if someone in your family was murdered for arguments sake, perhaps your wife or your children,and 18 years later there was new evidence to be looked at, you would want to look at it and decide for yourself if it was relevant.
I understand the sentiment on a most personal level. It's perhaps akin to having a chronic or incurable illness, or a loved one with such a desease, and little hope that mainstream medicine will provide healing - many will then turn to quackery. If you turn to quackery on your own financial and emotional resources, that's your prerogative. I have been there: My girl friend suffered from an incurable brain cancer, and together we consulted and tried alternative approaches. It certainly was a comforting experience to at least be "doing something".
But you are calling as a public body upon a public institution to spend tax payer money on what is, at the end of the day, quackery. That, in my opinion, is irresponsible.
The testimony of Firemen, Policemen, and first responders made that day on 9/11 must not be ignored. The physical evidence that remains must not be ignored.
I am convinced that the Firemen, Policemen, and first responders have been heard, and the physical evidence has been vetted, by the various investigations. What we do not need is for these testimonies to get cherry picked, taken out of context, misrepresented, or for physical evidence to get ignored by the likes of AE911Truth.
My opinion and those of the people who would say otherwise doesn't matter. Its what can be proven in a court of law that matters. My friends were murdered Mr. West and I will never forget the stench of death that pervaded the air for months afterward as we searched in vain at the pile. So you and your staff are most certainly entitled to your opinions and I respect that but do not sit there in the comfort of your homes and pass judgement on me. I want justice for my murdered friends and I say if you and your staff are true Americans then you will support The Fire Department and the Federal Grand Jury Investigation.
I think the victims deserve much better than to have their memory dragged into highly dubious and dishonest campaigns by a tiny fringe of people with, let's say, an idiosynchratic version of reality. Just to give you one example: A large proportion of the so-called "9/11 Truthers", including leaders and followers of AE911Truth - possibly even majorities of these groups - claim that American Airlines Flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon. This would imply that the passengers and crews of this flight did not perish inside the Pentagon, that their remains were not pulled from the Pentagon debris nor identified by DNA testing, and that consequently their loved ones did not, in fact, bury the victims. Can you imagine the emotional stress that such crazy, cynical lies could evoke in those relatives?
The ideas of such "Truthers" do not deserve any public money being spent on their inevitable debunking.
I see, Mr. Gioia, that you did an interview with AE911Truth's Andy Steele - who is one of those who claim that the vctims of flight AA77 are not actually victims of AA77's crash into the Pentagon. Did you know that?
Thank you for allowing me to respond back.
Sincerely,
Christopher Gioia
Commissioner and Ex-Chief
F.S.M.F.D.
This site and its people will ALWAYS allow you to respond back as often as you want to.
This is absolutely NOT true for many, most "9/11 Truthers", who generally practice heavy-handed censorship. For example, I am blocked from commenting on AE911Truth's Facebook page, and I am far from alone. I never insulted anyone there, all I did was state facts and criticise claims that I believed to be demonstrably wrong.
Gioia:
Then I'm like, all right, but you know, I'm going through. I'm surfing the web, and then I hit Architects and Engineers website, and this website had it all together, and it presented it in a logical fashion, yeah, all right, this is what happened. Then they back it up with professional people, and they... backed up by eyewitness testimony and how certain things are just not possible. You can't suspend the laws of physics. Gravity only operates downward. It doesn't operate from outward. The laws of science most certainly do apply. The laws of the building, the way the buildings were constructed, that applies. If you put theories to the test, which they have, then you prove that it's not really a theory anymore, or you eliminate things that just are impossible to happen.
That coalesced in my mind. Then after, I would say, two or three years of doing research and digging, digging through testimony, and looking at pictures, and hitting various websites, it pretty much was obvious that the official government narrative is not really what happened that day. It's absolutely far from the truth, and it's not a good thing.
Steele:
What first gave you the idea to pursue this resolution, and how difficult was the decision for you to go ahead and broach this subject with your colleagues?
Gioia:
I have been putting it out there for a couple years now in the fire department. Being commissioner, I do go to meetings with other fire districts, and being an ex-chief, I do go to meetings for chiefs, The Chiefs Association in Nassau County. I brought it up at a fire district meeting. I actually read the petition. I saw the petition. I agreed with the need to have another investigation, because a lot of evidence has surfaced in the past 18 years that needs to look at. A lot of it has been uncovered by Architects and Engineers. It's been uncovered by a lot of people, who have taken the time to analyze, and to render a professional opinion on what the evidence shows. That, to me, was very important.
Interesting. I'd like to point out he doesn't mention any of the family members asking for this resolution or even having looked at A&E's alleged "evidence".
Gioia:
I invited [family members of the 3 fallen firefighter friends of Gioia's]
....
Yes, they were there for the vote on the resolution.
I'm pointing this out only because it is probably a common reaction to assume the Commission was approached by family members and they acted due to an emotional solidarity with family member(s) concerns. This is not to say some family members might not believe the petition, but it is a serious pet peeve of mine when others "speak for" family members of victims. Or assume things about family members due to media wording/optics.
Thank you for posting my comments on your website. Having differing points of view keeps the debate healthy. It’s the respect for the other persons point of view that allows people to say we agree to disagree. That is what truly makes our country so great. Open debate is fundamental to our democracy. I appreciate the links you sent regarding false evidence and I will look at them. I’m glad you aren’t opposed to a full comprehensive Federal Grand Jury investigation taking into account the eyewitness statements and the remaining forensic evidence. The Federal Grand Jury has the power to subpoena witnesses as well. The 3000 people who were murdered deserve to have their voices represented in a court of law, something that has yet to be achieved. The U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York accepted the Petition and said he would comply under the law. That in itself is significant as he could have rejected the Petition outright as being legally defective, but it wasn’t, and he didn’t. Now his office is legally obligated by law to convene the Grand Jury. Let them put 911 under a microscope and examine every detail with the same veracity as the recent Mueller Investigation into Russian Collusion. It certainly would be money well worth spent if as you say all the evidence didn’t amount to anything. That would be the end of it Mr. West and you could say to people, see, I told you so. But more importantly, it would be “closure” if that word were to apply. Conversely, if the Grand Jury found otherwise then they should proceed as guided by the facts that can be proven no matter where it leads. Either way it’s a win win for the American people. Its either put it to rest once and for all and people can get on with their lives, or we hunt down the remaining perpetrators and bring them to justice, and then people can get on with their lives. There is no downside here. Thank you again for the post and your consideration.
It's not money well spent because there is no legitimate evidence of explosives in their petition. and it won't be the end of it, conspiracy theorists will just claim the GJ is inept, which would be a reasonable claim to my ear anyway.
[edit clarification add: I have no problem with the money spent. NY wastes so much money on things, that this is a mere drop in the bucket]
Mr. Gioia's personal beliefs aside, i think the only thing wrong with the resolution was his/their wording. He could have said "the evidence presented demonstrates a possibility that incendiaries were used" vs.
the overwhelming evidence presented in said petition demonstrates beyond any doubt that pre-planted explosives and/or incendiaries.
etc. The resolution does not sound at all objective or reasonable as written.
For what it's worth: Mr. Gioia has signed the "Grand Jury Petition" on the Lawyers' Committee website, but, as of today, has not signed the AE911Truth petition.
