1. tadaaa

    tadaaa Active Member

    The UK government has named the suspects in the Novichok poisoning case, however some people are claiming it is a set-up, as some of the photos the Metropolitan Police have released are faked

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/



    it certainly looks a little odd

    here are the originals from Met Police website

    http://news.met.police.uk/images/cc...-airport-at-15-00hrs-on-02-march-2018-1407995

    upload_2018-9-5_20-56-45.

    http://news.met.police.uk/images/cc...-airport-at-15-00hrs-on-02-march-2018-1407997

    upload_2018-9-5_20-57-42.


    you can download hi res ones from the met links


    at first I thought it may have been a crude addition of timestamps - but they appear on the Met Police office releases

    Craig Murray does accept the possibility that it could be two different locations - and the times a coincidence (but we do know coincidences happen all the time)

    the angles do look slightly different to me - that may indicate two "channels"


    ***moderator add: see Post# 8 and Post #14

    untitled.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2018
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  2. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    the angles are different. you can see the top of the wall in your first picture (the black border).

    and the photos say they are 2 different cameras



    hh.PNG





    From the MetPD link on your photos: (bold added for highlight)



    the MetPD link on your photos says: (bold added for highlight)
     
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  3. tadaaa

    tadaaa Active Member

    thanks for the Title Edit

    and yes I did not see that re the cameras
     
  4. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I do not think it is 2 different locations though. They were both on the same plane which landed at 15:58
    airportia.PNG

    https://www.airportia.com/flights/su2588/moscow/london/

    and it looks like they are in that moveable walkway they attach to planes.

    I also wonder if the cameras are motion detectors that snap photos vs. a movie type camera as both men seem to be snapped in the exact same location. What that has to do with how the cameras work, I have no idea. Cameras aren't something I am very familiar with.
     
  5. vooke

    vooke Active Member

    They are different cameras for sure. Bottom right under the PAUSE word is that red sign in the wall. It’s different on both images. Unlesss they rotate.

    Further,when I look at that corridor/walkway, looking behind the men, I see the walls have a repetitive pattern of those metallic bars and the black vertical lines. Means they were not necessarily at the same place,and it increases probability of snapping the suspects at similar looking points along the corridor.
     
  6. cloudspotter

    cloudspotter Senior Member

    I don't think so. It looks too narrow and carpeted for that. I found this video of passengers leaving a plane at Gatwick and it matches with my experiences of using those walkways

    Capture.JPG



    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPOY9KdWTPs
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
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  7. cloudspotter

    cloudspotter Senior Member

    Article in the Daily Mail

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-images-UK-police-rubbish-claims-instant.html
     
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  8. tadaaa

    tadaaa Active Member

    sorry I should have been clearer not two physical locations - just two different corridors in the same location

    it seems at least one "sceptical" site has accepted the obvious explanation

    http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/09/a-curious-timestamp-in-the-new-novichok-evidence.html#more
     
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  9. Miss VocalCord

    Miss VocalCord Active Member

    And here are they on google maps, you can walk through yourself and see they really seem to match:

    https://www.google.com/maps/@51.161...jgscVRsUw!2e0!3e2!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i15
    And I guess this is the security camera:
    https://www.google.com/maps/@51.161...Tn9ndYplA!2e0!3e2!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i56

    A quick comparison:

    Source: https://imgur.com/a/BAybhyV
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
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  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    I don't think the labels "CCTV1" and "CCTV2" necessarily indicate that they are different cameras. They are just handy identifiers given to the images: first CCTV image, second CCTV image, and so on (the photos in Salisbury station and town centre are labelled CCTV3, CCTV4 and so on).

    But yes, the simple explanation is that they are walking through the parallel gates at arrivals. You can clearly see that the angle of the cameras and other details on the walls differ.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
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  11. cloudspotter

    cloudspotter Senior Member

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  12. Miss VocalCord

    Miss VocalCord Active Member

    Yes, it all seems to match, the red sign, the position of the camera, the walk through doors, etc.
     
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  13. DavidB66

    DavidB66 Member

    I agree the most likely explanation is simply that they are going down a long narrow corridor (or maybe two different corridors) with several near-identical fittings, as one can see in the photos themselves. I say 'near-identical' because, as others have pointed out, there are some slight differences. I don't think it has been mentioned that in one of the photos the folded 'gate' on the viewer's right side of the picture is tighter against the wall than in the other one, so unless one of the men moved it while going through, they must be different gates.
    Until I saw the latest comments I was going to make another suggestion, that the photographs might have been edited in order to present clear separate images of the two suspects. After all, the main purpose of releasing the images is presumably to assist identification. But on seeing the comments I think it is far more likely that these are genuine unedited images taken at slightly different locations.
     
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  14. DavidB66

    DavidB66 Member

    The Russian authorities have latched onto this story (if they didn't start it in the first place). According to today's Daily Telegraph (UK), Russia is claiming that the images were doctored:


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...as-no-reason-to-investigate-uk-named-suspects

    As that is entirely consistent with the analysis here, I think we can say 'case closed'. Not that that is likely to stop conspiracy theorists repeating it.

    Just one small point to add: the fact that the two timestamps show exactly the same time may not be entirely coincidental, as both images are marked PAUSE, and the Police analyst may have deliberately chosen to pause them at the same time. However, if the two men started walking through the corridors at the same time, and took only a few seconds to reach the end near the CCTV cameras, the fact that they show the same time to the nearest second may not be very significant. [Added: For a healthy man a normal walking pace would be about 5 feet per second. It might be a bit less than this if the man is carrying or pulling luggage. Even so, it should not take more than 10 seconds to walk down a corridor like these, maybe 20 feet long. So for two men to reach the end of the corridors within a second of each other is not a massive coincidence.]
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
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  15. fishcake

    fishcake New Member

    I rotated and skewed the image in order to align the two cameras. The locations are very similar, though there are minor differences - the moving barriers are slightly rotated, and one of the vertical elements of the wall at the back of the corridor is slightly wider. The reflections of the metal on the walls are very similar, though this is to be expected. It's very plausible that these are two neighboring corridors, and the men walked in at precisely the same time. [off topic text removed]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2018
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  16. tadaaa

    tadaaa Active Member

    Thanks all

    I think the original claim has been withdrawn - so some credit is due

    although it seems he was very quick to jump to conclusions

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

     
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  17. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Here's another comparison with darker contrast. You can see that the shadows on translucent walls change.
    Also the smudges over the men changes, indicating different cameras. There is also a dark spot on the carpet in the background of the tilted shot.
    0_CO1416-2018-CCTV1-contrast.

    I think Russia is only pushing this issue as a distraction. Clearly they just went through separate doors, like everyone does in that situation.
     
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  18. tarzanbundolo

    tarzanbundolo New Member

    Flip the other photo horizontally and compare the details. They align almost perfectly. Here's a photo I made myself. The upper combination contains the original images and the lower combination contains a horizontally flipped image. With a few remarks.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    And so? They are symmetrical structures. What does it matter if they align slightly better mirrored? They are still different.
     
  20. tarzanbundolo

    tarzanbundolo New Member

    The differencies are lesser compared to the uniformity of the details. Like the gates. Of course they can be in such position by coincidence, like the coincidental time stamps and the coincidental location of the both men at the exactly same time. I have no personal reasons to hate Russia so I won't come up with biased opinions.
     
  21. DavidB66

    DavidB66 Member

    "The differences are lesser compared to the uniformity of the details."
    I'm not sure what point you are making. If you just mean that the two corridors have more similarities than differences, that is true, but it is not surprising. The two corridors are constructed to the same design, so of course they have many similarities. Suppose we were considering two photographs of cars, and we wanted to know whether the photographs showed the same identical car, or two different cars of the same brand and model. For that purpose there would be little point in listing all the similarities of design. It would be more relevant to examine details that might vary, such as the exact alignment of the wing mirrors or windscreen wipers. In the two photographs from Gatwick, there are enough detailed differences (such as the dark spot on the carpet noted by Mick West) to prove that the two photographs cannot show the same corridor at the same time. They either show two different corridors, or the same corridor at two different times, with slight changes occurring between the two times. The second possibility seems to be ruled out by other accepted facts, since no-one disputes that the two men passed through the Gatwick exit gates at about the same time.

    "Of course they can be in such position by coincidence, like the coincidental time stamps and the coincidental location of the both men at the exactly same time."
    It is not 'coincidental' that the two men were leaving the airport at the same time, since it is not disputed that they were travelling together. The only point that might be considered 'coincidental' is the fact that the time stamps on the videos show exactly the same times, to the nearest second. I have discussed this myself in some previous comments in this thread. I would consider it as only mildly surprising. Given that two men, of similar build and fitness, are starting to walk the same short distance at about the same time, we would not expect the time they take to differ by more than a few seconds. If they were independently walking a much longer distance - say, a mile - it would be much more surprising if they took exactly the same time, to the nearest second. But where the range of possible times is only a few seconds, the probability of a coincidence is reasonably high. It should also be noted that the times may not be entirely independent, as the two men may have heard or even seen each other through the translucent partitions.
     
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  22. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Not even that much, I would think. I don't know exactly how long these gates are but it looks like it would only take about something like five seconds to walk through them. So if the two men arrived at the gates together, as would be natural, then their speeds walking through would have to be significantly different in order for them to be out of sync by more than one second by the time they were at the position where they were photographed.

    In fact it should be possible to measure how long the corridor it is, from the photographs on this thread.

    Looking at the Google "Street View" images, I would guess the square floor tiles are standard 30cm x 30cm tiles, based on comparisons with people's feet (NB it is not carpet as Mick suggested). Which makes the length of the passageway about:

    5 x 30cm = 1.5 metres from the end of the metal railings to the metal strip on the floor just inside the glass doors.

    plus

    11.5 x 30cm = 3.45 metres from that strip to the second set of glass doors

    plus

    2.5 x 30cm = 0.75 metres from that second set of glass doors to the metal swinging gates that are level with where the men were photographed.

    So that's 5.7 metres. Less than six metres from the start of the railings to the point where they were photographed. At typical walking speed of 1.4 metres per second, that is about four seconds. Possibly slightly more if they had to wait for the gates to open, but you would assume the gates in identical tunnels to open at the same speed, so that should not introduce any differences.
     
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  23. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    they flew from Russia. they had fake Russian passports. So we don't know yet if the men are actually Russian.

    We do know the gates at Gatway are identical in construction. People walk together at the same speeds all the time, you've never purposefully changed the speed of your walk because you end up walking with/next to a stranger at the mall for too long and it feels weird?
     
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  24. Vierotchka

    Vierotchka New Member

    Actually, they are indeed Russian and they did not have fake passports.

    Did you not see their interview on YouTube?

    Streamed live on 13 Sep 2018

    Exclusive interview with Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov on the Skripal poisoning case in Salisbury.


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku8OQNyI2i0


    They were not given the questions prior to the interview. Furthermore, the GRU was disbanded 19 years ago, which makes the two suspects members of a defunct intelligence agency!
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
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  25. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    No I didn't. thank you for sharing. At 22 mins they discuss the gates at Gatwick. (basically they don't remember)
     
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  26. bobbobskin

    bobbobskin New Member

    With relation to the following.

    1. Sure the GRU is now called Гла́вное управле́ние Генера́льного шта́ба Вооружённых Сил Росси́йской Федера́ции), and thus abbreviated to G.U, however it's still commonly called GRU, and it's still effectively the same people.

    2. I'll just note that MI5 is "The Security Service" and MI6 is the "Secret Intelligence Service" in the same vein.

    3. The question of whether they have "fake" passports all depends on the definition of a "fake" passport. I doubt their is any question that these Russians have passports genuinely issued by the Russian government. If one considers a genuine passport issued in a fictitious identity or name, created by an agency to be "fake" - in light of the fact the person doesn't really "exist" and is a cover name, then they might be considered to be fake. If one only limits the definition of being a "fake passport" to be "not genuinely issued by the genuine authority" then it's unlikely they are "fake".

    Which side of the fence are you on?

     
  27. DavidB66

    DavidB66 Member

    According to news reports, one of the two suspects has allegedly been identified as a Colonel in the GRU: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45656004
    I must say he looks to me rather young to be a Colonel of anything, but maybe it is just my age: as one gets older, people like policemen and doctors increasingly seem to be barely out of school.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2018
  28. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    As a weary traveller and victim of Gatwick Airport, the arrival lanes are pretty much identical, and not sure why they wouldn't be. Craig Murray and I often joust on Twitter, but he does seem to tweet on incomplete information and often emotionally. He is of the 'something fishy' type rather than asserting answers, he is pointing out anomalies or using poor logic to find something other than the obvious.
     
  29. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I think part of the reason why this gained a little traction is that automated exit gates like this are a relatively new addition, and still don't exist in many airports. Had I not flown for a few years then my only point of reference for a narrow passage would be a jetway, of which there is usually just one.

    In my local airport (Sacramento) they installed a row of exit gates like this two years ago. Before that you simply walked out along a wide corridor.

    Even knowing this, I first assumed these photos were in a jetway, so I think it's a pretty understandable mistake to make. It's only when it's pointed out what it actually is (side by side gates that people naturally walk through side by side, at the same time) that people start to be unreasonable.
     
  30. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    In the US that is, perhaps more common elsewhere.
    https://sacramento.aero/scas/about/...ort_installs_high_tech_exit_lanes_in_terminal