What evidence of aliens would convince skeptics?

-- Let's assume:

- Aliens exist somewhere in the Universe, and are responsible if not for multiple, at least some of these objects (or, let's say, just one, of all we have read to this date);
Circular reasoning, aka "begging the question": you begin by assuming the endpoint of what you set out to prove.

The only valid proof method that actually works in a similar way is reductio ad absurdum, where you assume the opposite of what you want to prove, and then show it can't be true. In that light, and with a few small corrections, you have actually made a fairly convincing case that we do not have alien visitors.
That's when I thought of an alternative: what if these UFOs are not deliberately coming here, but instead:

- They are from another dimension or a parallel space-time layer.

- They "bleed" into our reality by accident, perhaps due to fluctuations, energy phenomena, or the way their propulsion interacts with spacetime.

- They appear here briefly, are seen by some of us, and then vanish back into their native dimension.
This is not physically possible, neither in classic physics, nor in any extension of physics that includes "parallel dimensions". A constituting principle of these "dimensions" is that they cannot interact with other "dimensions".

And why such theory makes more sense than anything we have assumed until now?
Such a theory, like any science fiction, requires suspension of disbelief.
Assuming that there are no visitors actually makes the most sense.
The Tic Tac UFO incident from 2004 seems to suggest these crafts came from altitudes in the upper atmosphere (around 24 km / 80,000 ft?), regions we probably don't monitor closely enough to detect similar objects (and this one would be too small?).
That incident suggests no such thing.
24km altitude is not in the upper atmosphere.
That altitude is surveilled by air traffic radar. Several military aircraft types have/had ceilings in excess of 80,000 ft.
Plus, if we consider (again, for argument sake) the Tic-Tac speeds to be 10 times faster than the fastest human-craft ever made (based on the reports),
Please be more sceptical about such reports.

The topic of this thread is about what evidence would convince us, not what speculation would make the most exciting story (and have the best social media reach).
 
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For the closest stars at 4 light-years, they can't tell there's life in here as much as we can't looking at them, if (let's assume) the ETs had 100% the same tech as us.
It is very unlikely that an interstellar civilisation would have the same level of tech as us, In particular, their telescopic technology would almost certainly allow them to survey the planets of neighbouring stars in some detail, using interferometry in a wide range of wavelengths and by building up data over time. Even today we can construct virtual telescopes with a baseline of 400 metres on the surface of the Earth; in future, space-based interferometers could have baselines of millions of kilometers.

Similarly, space-based radio telescopes could have overwhelmingly large baselines, enough to detect a range of transmissions from Earth's technosphere. The strongest emissions currently sent out by Earth technology are phased-array radar signals, which even our technology could detect thirty light years away. It is much more efficient for an advanced technological civilisation to build very large arrays of linked telescopes to observe the local systems and build up a detailed picture over decades than it is to send probes to those systems, which would necessarily be small and have limited observation power.
 
@Perene - Continuing this theme, a report of UFO/UAP behavior that appears to violate currently accepted laws of physics cannot be assumed to be proof of NHI activity. It is however very good evidence that the report under consideration contains one or more quantitative or qualitative errors.

100% of solved cases follow this pattern and there is no good reason to expect that the residual unsolved cases would be any different.
 
And there is the added complication of, If Aliens are here why are they hiding? Are you hiding from the ants living in your lawn? Probably not. So why haven't they just started making their presence obvious, like visiting shopping malls, or building mile-wide space stations in orbit, or carving a smiley-face on the near side of the Moon?
And if they were here in the past, where is the trash they left behind? Surely they would have carved that smiley-face on the Moon as a "KIlroy was here" marking for the next space traveling race to pass by to see. Or the remains of a temporary base on the near-side of the Moon?
The idea of sending signals and hoping to receive something back from an advanced civilization is, sadly, a waste of time, if the receiver can't conquer such distances with ease (and having the same development we have is already beating improbable odds, anything could have happened in those millions of years to prevent our existence). It's not a question of "if", it's when killer asteroids or other life-threatening events can shake a planet. And wipe an entire species.

What we are transmitting out there is probably not going to be interpreted properly, the signal will likely degrade and confused with other stuff (the "WOW signal" has been "debunked"). Voyager 1 isn't going to be found, I also doubt the materials used in it will remain intact for more than a few decades.

If an alien notices planet Earth exists (there's no such thing as "visiting", because that assumes they know about our existence beforehand), and waste their time spending resources flying into outer space hoping to find anything at all (considering it's mostly empty, and also assuming their bodies don't get destroyed in the trip), most of what they'll see when looking at us is...

WATER.

Calling it "Earth" is misleading. About 71% of this planet's surface is covered by oceans. The remaining 29% is land. And even that is mostly deserts, mountains, forests, and ice. Urbanized or populated areas, cities, roads, etc. make up less than 1% of Earth's total surface. From orbit, or from another planet's vantage point, the blue color of oceans dominates the view. That's why Earth is nicknamed "The Blue Planet".

And that tiny percentage is shared with animals that I view as we all do ants, in terms of how they can have meaningful communications with us.

Why would you (if you were an ET, capable of creating such spaceships) land in here? To get captured/harmed? What if the first thing you see is a dumb animal (aside from humans)? Remember the aliens don't know a single thing about us?

The fact we are mostly WATER is a strong reason to suspect that's only what they are seeing from such distances (that is, if their telescope/other instruments can detect traces of life from Earth - depending on the distance, within our solar system, we may see ourselves as pixels). If the beings piloting or controlling these crafts are indeed aliens, they do whatever they need, and move on. Jumping through dimensions, or not.

After decades of UFO reports, that's the only consistent behavior - these objects are elusive and will never allow themselves to be intercepted.

It's also the "move on" part that always "breaks" these discussions.

Because there's no evidence they are hiding in here, or in outer space, close to this planet (and I mean really close, perhaps hundreds of km above our heads).

That also implies they left their home planet, since it has been discarded (from what has been said in the previous posts) travelling close to the speed of light, into another dimension and other sci-fi wildish theories.

"Where would they go" is never explained (don't tell me it's underwater...). I don't buy the "we found the alien crafts and keep them in our basement" stories.

What we can all agree is that at least the aliens that pay us a visit are always shy, or know better, to interact with us.

That's no different from most animals, they don't knock on our door to get an invitation for tea, and talk about politics, philosophy. Whatever any animal does is aimed to survive, get more resources, reproduce, and perhaps gather some information about the environment. That's all. We are the ones that anthropomorphize them. We are the ones guilty of thinking aliens, if they exist, will act as we would. No. That's projecting.

As for what evidence would convince a skeptic, I don't think I have seen discussed enough how it's a waste of time trying to capture/record UFOs moving so fast. All equipment suggested to do such a thing, and all "evidence" I have seen (Mick and others that dealt with these can attest to what I am saying a lot better than I do) are pathetic (with all due respect - it's not the people that try/took them that I have an issue, they have my simpathy - it's with the tech that is shit).

For example, astronomers and astrophotographers are the last that can produce such evidence. You always need to spend a lot of cash to get anything worthwhile (remember it's also not exactly portable), and when you least except, said UFO will appear when you are not ready. I am not even counting Photoshop and now AI manipulation. We simply cannot produce convicing images of UFOs, period.

Every UFO picture is a fuzzy blob, blurry and useless, when it's not among the many fakes produced by grifters, which sustain this "industry".

In order to do a proper capture, these UFOs would need to spend considerable time not moving (like a deep space object when we try to capture them at night), just hovering, the conditions of the sky help (they never do... especially at night, that makes these a trillion times worse), not putting so much distance from us, not being so small, and the tech we have, be adjusted accordingly in perhaps seconds; I doubt most people not only own such gear $$$$$$$ or are ready for any of these encounters, all the time.

As for not being ready: in the 2004's Tic-Tac incident, the jets had helmet-mounted sights (HMS) and head-tracking sensors integrated with the aircraft's targeting systems, including the ATFLIR pod, which records video and infrared imagery. The pilot can "slave" the targeting pod or radar to wherever they look, using the helmet system, so the sensors automatically point where the pilot's head is turned.

David Fravor said in one of his videos (check on Youtube), that he didn't activate it while looking the object. When he said he didn't "turn his head camera on and regretted now", he meant he didn't switch on or cue the ATFLIR targeting pod during the encounter.

That's because at that moment, he was visually maneuvering against the unknown object at low altitude over the ocean, in a tight, dynamic aerial engagement. Engaging the helmet cueing or heads-down camera systems would have required looking inside the cockpit to operate menus or buttons, or turning his head and focusing on the HMS display rather than the outside horizon, which he hinted that was a recipe for spatial disorientation, especially when the aircraft is banking, descending, or pulling G-forces.

So, you see, that illustrates there's always some obstacle to get a clear picture of said UFOs, and it's not like our tech is crap, it's that we are not ready (or at lest until now, unable) to produce convincing evidence.
 
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We're right now trying to find out about planets from spectrography of the atmosphere, so I think Earth would have signature here.

It might also be possible, depending on the distance, to detect artificial light on the night side.
 
What we can all agree is that at least the aliens that pay us a visit are always shy, or know better, to interact with us.
I think we will all agree if you reword the sentence by including an "if", for instance:

"What we can all agree is that at least if aliens pay us visits they are always shy, or know better, to interact with us."
 
I think we will all agree if you reword the sentence by including an "if", for instance:

"What we can all agree is that at least if aliens pay us visits they are always shy, or know better, to interact with us."
And perhaps an amazing ability to make sure there is no more than one camera on them 99 times out of 100, and it is too far away to tell much about them...
 
There's a paradox at work, in that the more sightings are made, the less likely they indicate aliens in our vicinity. Given the limitations of physics, it becomes harder to believe that all the various types of manifestations could possibly come from the same source planet, and that they would all arrive within a relatively short period of time; that would require more to be sent out in our direction before the original ones could possibly have got here and sent a message back to say "habitable" (or "conquerable").

The alternative conclusion would be that many different planets have sent scout ships to check out earth ...and that's an even more unbelievable scenario. My view is that the maximum number of alien visitations is ONE, and is much more likely to be ZERO.
 
Given the limitations of physics, it becomes harder to believe that all the various types of manifestations could possibly come from the same source planet, and that they would all arrive within a relatively short period of time
I love the argument, "What about all the different types of motor vehicles?" Um yeah there isn't exactly the Ford Pyramid and the Hyundai Jellyfish.
 
So why haven't they just started making their presence obvious... ....carving a smiley-face on the near side of the Moon?

Um......

mitm.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_in_the_Moon
 
The aliens are very clever, they've carved almost everything on the moon, if you look hard enough.
Ah, but are they clever enough to know what a "face" is? Or a bunny rabbit or a T-Rex? We're talking aliens here, remember, not earthlings with faces, back yard animals, or museums full of fossils.
;)
 
Ah, but are they clever enough to know what a "face" is? Or a bunny rabbit or a T-Rex? We're talking aliens here, remember, not earthlings with faces, back yard animals, or museums full of fossils.
;)
If the aliens did not know what all that stuff is, they would not be able to paint it on the moon!
 
Ah, but are they clever enough to know what a "face" is? Or a bunny rabbit or a T-Rex? We're talking aliens here, remember, not earthlings with faces, back yard animals, or museums full of fossils.
;)
They don't need to be artists, they just need to know what silhouette a heat-ray blast leaves behind:
1760995125859.png
1760995067486.png
1760995097436.png
 
That's because at that moment, he was visually maneuvering against the unknown object at low altitude over the ocean, in a tight, dynamic aerial engagement. Engaging the helmet cueing or heads-down camera systems would have required looking inside the cockpit to operate menus or buttons, or turning his head

Going off-topic a bit, but if military pilots can't engage helmet-cued systems while in a "dynamic aerial engagement", there might be a significant design flaw or training issue. Because I'm guessing that's when they need them most.
(To clarify, I'm not saying it's easy for a pilot to do this).
 
...in a tight, dynamic aerial engagement.

Re-visiting that phrase (and maybe I'm being overly pedantic, if so sorry @Perene!) but to me that implies hard manoeuvring of a type that might be required in a dogfight or in air-to-air combat training with an opponent; maybe that Fravor had to keep rapidly manoeuvring to keep "eyes on" an evasive, agile target.

I don't think Cdr Fravor's account describes that.

From David Fravor's testimony to the House Oversight Committee's Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs, 26 July 2023, posted by Forbes Breaking News on YouTube:

External Quote:

All four of us 'cause we were in F-18Fs so we had pilots and Wizzo [Weapon Systems Officer, Wikipedia] in the back seat looked down and saw a small white Tic Tac object with a longitudinal axis pointing north-south and moving very abruptly over the water, like a ping pong ball.
There were no rotors, no rotor wash, or any sign of visible control surfaces like wings.

As we started clockwise towards the object my WSO and I decided to go down and take a closer look with the other aircraft staying at high cover to observe both us and the Tic Tac.

We proceeded around a circle about ninety degrees from the start of our descent, and the object- oj- object suddenly shifted its longitudinal axis, aligned it with my aircraft, and began to climb. We continued down another 270 degrees nose low, where the Tic Tac, er, we consint't [indistinct] 270 degrees, toward, and we point nose low, to where the Tic Tac would've been.
Our altitude at this point was about 15,000 feet and the Tic Tac was about 12,000.

As we pulled nose-on to the object within about a half-mile of it, it rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wingmen, roughly 8,000 feet above us, lost contact also.
(My transcription, there may be errors, see footage below for Fravor's testimony).

The aircrew see what has been described as a white Tic Tac. Fravor (with his WSO) decide to take a closer look. To do this, they travel downward in a clockwise 360 degree spiral, with the intent of losing height and ending up travelling in the same direction as previously.
This was a planned manoeuvre, not executed under pressure or spontaneously actioned by the pilot "in the heat of the moment".

When the aircraft has travelled approx. 90 degrees through its descending spiral, the object- roughly oval or rectangular, so longer in one dimension than others- "shifted its longitudinal axis, aligned it with {Fravor's] aircraft". This (to me) implies that the (featureless) object appears to be being seen end-on: It no longer looks like a Tic Tac but a disc. I guess it could also mean the object's longer axis was parallel to that of the F/A-18's.

If the object was ascending at this point, it can't have been ascending very rapidly relative to the F/A-18: when Fravor completes his 360 degrees manoeuvre to get closer to it, he is still an estimated 2000 ft, 610 metres, above the object. Fravor does not recount increasing his speed or turn rate / tightening his turn.

When the F/A-18 completes its turning descent, the object is seen "nose-on", I think this means directly ahead from Fravor's forward-facing POV. Fravor said the object's longitudinal axis was aligned with his aircraft from the 90 degree point of his turn; he doesn't report any subsequent change in the object's orientation relative to his aircraft.
Whatever Fravor means by the object's longitudinal axis being aligned with his aircraft, he has to be seeing the object roughly end-on: Definitely if by "aligned" he meant the object's longitudinal axis is pointing at his aircraft; otherwise at something of an oblique angle, from his higher vantage point, if he meant the object's long axis was parallel with the F/A-18's long axis.
The object appears to accelerate away.

After talking with his colleagues Fravor executed one controlled turning descent to a lower altitude, at which point the object vanished.
I'm not sure this is a "tight, dynamic aerial engagement", but I accept the meaning of that phrase might be subjective.
Fravor- by his own testimony- was not involved in a series of manoeuvres in order to keep the object in sight.


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz0p6QXHh9E


The testimony I've quoted is from approx. 1 min 37 secs into the video, I haven't timestamped it so context isn't lost.
Fravor had time to prepare, had the use of his own notes, and I'm sure he took the proceedings seriously.

I'm being pernickety about the tight, dynamic ariel engagement description because I've seen similar phrases used in retellings of UFO reports re-cycled by other commentators and later taken to be "canonical", even if the original account doesn't seem to justify it.

In passing, Fravor's flight did not have radar or optical systems tracking the object. The object was featureless, viewed against the sea (not sure if it was seen against the sky) with no fixed landmarks. Estimates of its size, distance and speed are all estimates. If size estimates reported elsewhere are representative of Fravor's accounts, the object had a perceived width of 15-30 feet, 4.5 to 9 metres. Viewed end-on from an estimated closest distance of half a mile (2640 ft, 805 metres), it would have looked very small- maximum approx. 0.64 degrees of arc (using https://mathbz.com/arc-angle-calculator/ with values arc=9, radius=805).
(I've used the word "object", though I'm not at all sure that a single, physically solid "out there" object is necessarily the cause of the sighting).
 
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