This is HUGE! If you can demonstrate that is correct, then you can expose the entire report as a lie, and prove the planes were not planes! Let's concentrate on that for a while as it's such as showstopper. What are the sources that say a 767 can't go at 590mph at 1000 feet AGL?
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:19:05 +1300 From: "Tony Davies" <******@xtra.co.nz> To: "Dylan Phelps" <*********@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: B757 Videos
Dylan,
I was the captain of that particular shot, filmed during a Squadron open-day a couple of years ago. It's part of a routine that has been performed over thirty times at various airshows and practices around the world including RIAT Fairford 2003, Kemble 2006, RAF Waddington 2006, Warbirds Over Wanaka 2004, Avalon 2005.
The low pass is flown into wind at 350 knots (indicated) and 100 feet above the runway. It's a 2g pull up to between 45 and 55 degrees nose up pitch (although there has been higher) and the zoom climb ends at an altitude between 8000 and 10000 feet depending on the type of pull up used. The sequence does not end with a loop as some of the readers speculate, but in fact with a 60 degree wingover at around 220 knots. It is easily possible to enhance this maneouver with a steeper climb and bank but there is no need - it is spectacular already, and safe.
The aircraft is NZ7572 (formerly PH-TKB of Transavia) and it's sister ship, NZ7571, is seen in the foreground of the video shot. Both aircraft are operated by 40 Squadron at Royal New Zealand Air Force Base Whenuapai in Auckland, New Zealand. It is a B757-2k2 with RB211-E4 engines, shortly to become E4Bs.
Feel free to post this information if you so desire. If you want more details, I can provide. I can also pass you more videos of other maneovers we have done but I am a little busy right now and need some time to convert them to MPEG. I have attached a shot of the same aircraft involved with a formation practice for a London flyover with 3 Typhoons taken in November this year, as well as a quick shot taken from inside the B757 at the same time.
If someone thinks there may be robot cats in your neighbourhood and wishes to investigate that then I certainly don't think you should debunk their wishes.
I don't think the government should pay for it without more evidence, but also I don't think the government should obstruct such an investigation.
WOW! OMG. That's great. I really hope they are not as theorised!
I had not heard of this until I clicked that link. Ummmm... I am not sure what to say. I certainly think that guy who has the website should investigate them further! I would personaly not read any threads about them until at least I had heard about them n a podcast.
But I'd be against spending taxpayer money on something unless there's good reason.
Non, debunkers are actively skeptical. Debunk is a verb, skeptical is a state. We try to determine what is best supported by evidence, and to expose poor evidence and claims supported by poor evidence. See my article on this topic:
If someone thinks there may be robot cats in your neighbourhood and wishes to investigate that then I certainly don't think you should debunk their wishes.
I don't think the government should pay for it without more evidence, but also I don't think the government should obstruct such an investigation.
So you think that the CIA should have to open its files to my Robot Cat investigation? Say if I got 20 people on my side?
I don't think it's hard to understand what good evidence consists of. I don't want to get into an epistemological discussion, but basically for me it would be evidence that I cannot find errors or deficiencies in in, and which could stand up to peer review.
An example of good evidence would be the planes flying faster than they are physically capable of. Or some detonators found in the rubble. Or audio of explosions. Or a credible whistleblower.
Hey guys, new to the site. I tried to find an active post on the 911 insider trading part, but couldn't find it....neither did I find where to start a post for myself (but since I did read the notice that first posts needed to be confirmed, I figured maybe the site 'rules' need you first to contribute to an active discussion before picking out new stuff.
So I found somebody 'debunking' the Loose Change assertions of the 911 insider trading prior to the event (mainly the supposed fact that put options on American Airlines were 11 times higher than 'normal') , but in the end his post or debunking makes it even worse than it was in advance http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1346
Yes I'm Familiar the German central bank conducted a study and found “almost irrefutable proof of insider trading.” and the German Central bank President Ernst Weltekesuggested that the insider trading occurred not only in shares of companies affected by the attacks, such as airlines and insurance companies, but also in gold and oil.
Even the Mainstream news reported it, so it has to be credible right? The extent of the 9/11-related informed trading was unprecedented. An ABC News Consultant, Jonathan Winer, said, “it’s absolutely unprecedented to see cases of insider trading covering the entire world from Japan to the US to North America to Europe.”
It was mainly by the Carlyle Group of which George W. Bush was a senior counselor from 93 to 05.
I would imagine that to justify that you would need to show a relevant connection. If the CIA had published a document years ago detailing Robot Cat espionage then yes, that seems right.
I don't think it's hard to understand what good evidence consists of.
This is HUGE! If you can demonstrate that is correct, then you can expose the entire report as a lie, and prove the planes were not planes! Let's concentrate on that for a while as it's such as showstopper. What are the sources that say a 767 can't go at 590mph at 1000 feet AGL?
"D. The argument that the energy of the mass of the Boeing 767 at a speed of 540 mph fails because:
a. No Boeing 767 could attain that speed at 1000 feet above sea level because of parasite drag which doubles with velocity and parasite power which cubes with velocity.
b. The fan portion of the engine is not designed to accept the volume of dense air at that altitude and speed."
From:
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURTSOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
DR. MORGAN REYNOLDS, on behalf of :The United States of America :
Plaintiff, : ECF CASEvs. :: 07 CIV 4612 (GBD)SCIENCE APPLICATIONS :INTERNATIONAL CORP., et al : January 28, 2008Defendants. :
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF NEVADA :COUNTY OF CLARK :JOHN LEAR, of full age, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
George, you know that John Lear claiming something does not make it fact. It already seems a bit less than credible if he uses the word "doubles" where he means "squares".
"Conclusion: Is it probable that the 767-200 can make 560mph at sea level?It is highly probable that AA11 and UA175 could easily make the airspeeds quoted in the official reports and as seen in the video footage. Here is a summation of the facts;
1. The aircraft were seen to make those airspeeds on September 11, 2001. This has never been questioned by any peer reviewed paper or team of experts, so it stands as fact.
2. The aircraft were well within their structural limit of .86 Mach by a margin of .12 Mach or approximately 14%; flying at maximum of reported speed of .74 Mach.
3. The simulator test carried out on an actual certified Full Flight Simulator (the best available), in a fully accredited pilot certification facility, showed that the 767 aircraft can reach an airspeed oTf .86 Mach in a flat trajectory at approximate sea level. It was also shown that .89 Mach could be achieved in a similar shallow dive as seen made by AA11 and UA175 on 9/11. These results show far greater speeds possible than the required official airspeed of 560mph or .74 Mach by some 16% at the minimum and 20% if the actual flight conditions were simulated in a shallow dive.
4. Considering the large margins demonstrated here, we can now conclude that the “Impossible Airspeed” stated by John Lear et al. is false."
No, because if it were so, then all the other pilots would agree, and most of them do not. Also if it were true it would be easily verifiable by everyone, and it's not. In fact the pilots have been shown to be wrong time and time again.
But most convincingly, there are regular high speed low altitude flybys at air shows that exceed what the pilots claim is the top speed.
While possible . . . it will not happen without a real accident . . .
"Considering all of these facts we are still left with the question: Can a 767-200 make 560mph ground speed at sea level or the equivalent of .74 of Mach speed? We know that it is definitely within its design parameters and that it can do so at high altitude (not in question), but can it do this at sea level (higher air density)? Considering that 560mph is 145mph faster than its recommended maximum operating speed (Lear’s argument), it is simply not possible to test this speed in a commercial 767-200 aircraft; it would be against the aircraft manufacturer’s recommendations, outside of standard company operating procedures and against the authorities’ rules (FAA in US). For these reasons we will not see a 767-200 attain 560mph in operation unless it is in the middle of an aircraft incident or accident. The only way to test this is in an accredited Full Flight Simulator."
While possible . . . it will not happen without a real accident . . .
"Considering all of these facts we are still left with the question: Can a 767-200 make 560mph ground speed at sea level or the equivalent of .74 of Mach speed? We know that it is definitely within its design parameters and that it can do so at high altitude (not in question), but can it do this at sea level (higher air density)? Considering that 560mph is 145mph faster than its recommended maximum operating speed (Lear’s argument), it is simply not possible to test this speed in a commercial 767-200 aircraft; it would be against the aircraft manufacturer’s recommendations, outside of standard company operating procedures and against the authorities’ rules (FAA in US). For these reasons we will not see a 767-200 attain 560mph in operation unless it is in the middle of an aircraft incident or accident. The only way to test this is in an accredited Full Flight Simulator."
If I may contribute to this thread may I ask if this feat is possible or even plausible would everyone here agree it would take an experienced Pilot of an exceptional degree?
If the answer is yes then are we to believe the Official Comission report that Mohammed al Qahtani with his limited skills pulled off an Iceman *much props if anyone gets that one.
George, you know that John Lear claiming something does not make it fact. It already seems a bit less than credible if he uses the word "doubles" where he means "squares".
If I may contribute to this thread may I ask if this feat is possible or even plausible would everyone here agree it would take an experienced Pilot of an exceptional degree?
If the answer is yes then are we to believe the Official Comission report that Mohammed al Qahtani with his limited skills pulled off an Iceman *much props if anyone gets that one.
I think without an autopilot it would be very difficult or highly unlikely that one could get three out of three hits on target . . . the question is could the hijackers have properly programmed and engaged the autopilots????
I think without an autopilot it would be very difficult or highly unlikely that one could get three out of three hits on target . . . the question is could the hijackers have properly programmed and engaged the autopilots????
Autopilot will not help in the slightest. You can't set the autopilot to "fly into that building". Autopilot just maintains heading, altitude and speed, or changes them to specific values.
Flying a 767 is very complicated. but simply STEERING a 767 in the air is very simple. You bank left, it goes left. You put the nose down, it goes down. So you just aim at the building, and fly into it. I've flow large planes into buildings in simulation. There's nothing to it. It's like a video game.
Autopilot will not help in the slightest. You can't set the autopilot to "fly into that building". Autopilot just maintains heading, altitude and speed, or changes them to specific values.
Flying a 767 is very complicated. but simply STEERING a 767 in the air is very simple. You bank left, it goes left. You put the nose down, it goes down. So you just aim at the building, and fly into it. I've flow large planes into buildings in simulation. There's nothing to it. It's like a video game.
That is not what a senior instructor pilot indicated who used simulators to try to do replicate the hijackers' feats . . . I will post his testimony when I relocate it . . .
My thought was not technically an autopilot but rather a remotely controlled aircraft using telimemtary . . .
That is not what a senior instructor pilot indicated who used simulators to try to do replicate the hijackers' feats . . . I will post his testimony when I relocate it . . .
My thought was not technically an autopilot but rather a remotely controlled aircraft using telimemtary . . .
Autopilot will not help in the slightest. You can't set the autopilot to "fly into that building". Autopilot just maintains heading, altitude and speed, or changes them to specific values.
Flying a 767 is very complicated. but simply STEERING a 767 in the air is very simple. You bank left, it goes left. You put the nose down, it goes down. So you just aim at the building, and fly into it. I've flow large planes into buildings in simulation. There's nothing to it. It's like a video game.
Agreed. The theory that the larger a plane is, the harder it is to steer it, is not completely true. When you look at all planes, from a Cessna to a jumbo jet, at bare basics they operate in the exact same way. Turn the yoke, move the ailerons, force the plane into a turn. Pull back or forward on the yoke, move the elevators, force the plane into a nose-up or nose-down pitch. Push the rudder petals and force a yaw. Just doing these three things can give someone manageable control of an aircraft.
Oh gosh no. I remember in the 80s reading about thermite, I think I even tried to make it. I certainly thought about making it.
#
Better than MP3 but not as good as DAT? Ho Ho!
Please understand I am not sitting watching videos of collapses. I am not looking at timings and trying to work out freefall speeds, yada yada.
But if there are a bunch of people who are qualified to say "I am an Engineer and..." "I am a material scientist and..." then I feel no issue about acknowledging there may be some serious issues here. I wont simply poopoo like is so common on the internet; frankly, I can totally see why its such a comon responce and I do it often. But about homeopathy and paul-is-dead.
Sometimes things are very much not as they seem.
I try hard not to stoop to that silly little nomencultual debate, but to answer your question:
Lady Dianna being murdered. Armstrong on the moon. I believe these conspiracy theories did not happen. Though new information could always come along....
Please try not to be reactive combative if you want to chat with me. Its so booooring!
That is not what a senior instructor pilot indicated who used simulators to try to do replicate the hijackers' feats . . . I will post his testimony when I relocate it . . .
My thought was not technically an autopilot but rather a remotely controlled aircraft using telimemtary . . .
Comments on ability to hit the buildings from a senior pilot and simulator instructor on a 737 . . . issues Dutch Roll, Speed, control surface flutter, etc.
Comments on ability to hit the buildings from a senior pilot and simulator instructor on a 737 . . . issues Dutch Roll, Speed, control surface flutter, etc.
I am sure we can find many holes in the statements as items of evidence. Eg
We do not know that the simulator accounted for Variable V (material properties, control properties, pilot's skill under pressure....)
And I am sure the deniers will often bog the conspiracy skeptic down into the details; as if the enire edifice of the deep and wide theory depends on the this video.
What I say as a conspiracy skeptic/debunker is that this video confirms, rather than dis-confirms the hypothesis that: A human pilot could not have flown those planes*
It isn't a proof, but it confirms it.
If someone wishes to argue against this conclusion based on the video I think they would need give give a specific reason as to why, rather than just pointing out the obvious and expected possibilities of dis-confirmation.
He had me going there, until he said at 4:55 "at 300 knots in an airliner, if you move the controls as you would expect to do in a little airplane, you couldn't stand the g-forces, everything has to be just fingertip". - this seems just silly, I was taught to fly with fingertip adjustments on a single engine Piper.
One wonders why AE911 don't harp on this more. If it were in fact impossible, then surely it would be quite straightforward to demonstrate?
He had me going there, until he said at 4:55 "at 300 knots in an airliner, if you move the controls as you would expect to do in a little airplane, you couldn't stand the g-forces, everything has to be just fingertip". - this seems just silly, I was taught to fly with fingertip adjustments on a single engine Piper.
One wonders why AE911 don't harp on this more. If it were in fact impossible, then surely it would be quite straightforward to demonstrate?
Your dismissal of the entire video based on the criticism above is not very convincing . . . seems it has not been demonstrated because of FAA rules and safety constraints . . . and one would have to sacrifice a pilot and aircraft to prove the issue . . . I suppose one could suspend light columns in the air simulating the edges of one of the WTC Towers and have people trained to fly a 767 but who have never landed one try to hit the targets . . .
Your dismissal of the entire video based on the criticism above is not very convincing . . . seems it has not been demonstrated because of FAA rules and safety constraints . . . and one would have to sacrifice a pilot and aircraft to prove the issue . . . I suppose one could suspend light columns in the air simulating the edges of one of the WTC Towers and have people trained to fly a 767 but who have never landed one try to hit the targets . . .
Well, that's hardly my only criticism, just what tipped me off that the speaker was not really making sense.
I'd wager $100 that I could hit the WTC in a 767 flight simulator at 500 knots on my first attempt. I can fly a small plane, and I've played a lot of video games.
There are really three seperate questions:
1) Can a 767 fly at 500 knots at 1000 feet?
2) Can it be controlled at that speed?
3) Can a single engine trained pilot steer it into a 200 foot wide target at that speed?
Well, that's hardly my only criticism, just what tipped me off that the speaker was not really making sense.
I'd wager $100 that I could hit the WTC in a 767 flight simulator at 500 knots on my first attempt. I can fly a small plane, and I've played a lot of video games.
There are really three seperate questions:
1) Can a 767 fly at 500 knots at 1000 feet?
2) Can it be controlled at that speed?
3) Can a single engine trained pilot steer it into a 200 foot wide target at that speed?
Reasonable . . . but someone well practiced in simulators may not be the proper subject to perform a test . . . seems the light column test would be possible . . . that would convince me it is possible . . .
Reasonable . . . but someone well practiced in simulators may not be the proper subject to perform a test . . . seems the light column test would be possible . . . that would convince me it is possible . . .
Oh, I've only used desktop simulators, not actual simulators. But I suspect an actual simulator would be even easier to steer, as you get much better feedback.
Oh, I've only used desktop simulators, not actual simulators. But I suspect an actual simulator would be even easier to steer, as you get much better feedback.
I have flown real simulators at AF flight schools . . . have not flown desk top simulators . . . my impression . . . the real simulators are very easy to crash . . . LoL!!!
I have flown real simulators at AF flight schools . . . have not flown desk top simulators . . . my impression . . . the real simulators are very easy to crash . . . LoL!!!
Yes, usually landing but not always . . . however, they needed to make the critical turns and maneuvers necessary without crashing before crashing into the towers and Pentagon . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSokEXdFjaQ&feature=related
Yes, usually landing but not always . . . however, theyneeded to make the critical turns and maneuvers necessary without crashing before crashing intothe towers and Pentagon . . .
The aircraft at the Pentagon was rather close to the ground during its final maneuvers a small error and it would have never made it to the building . . . the TWC aircraft were descending into Manhattan . . . as in a landing apporach . . . and that is when major errors are made in a simulator . . . at the speeds they were going a tiny error would have ended in a crash . . . before they got to the buildings . . . IMO . . .
The aircraft at the Pentagon was rather close to the ground during its final maneuvers a small error and it would have never made it to the building . . .. .
The aircraft at the Pentagon was rather close to the ground during its final maneuvers a small error and it would have never made it to the building . . . the TWC aircraft were descending into Manhattan . . . as in a landing apporach . . . and that is when major errors are made in a simulator . . . at the speeds they were going a tiny error would have ended in a crash . . . before they got to the buildings . . . IMO . . .
Maybe, similar judgment errors that I made when flying the simulators (rate of descent and air speed). . . when I crashed it was well before reaching the landing strip . . . of course I was not going 500 knots . . . most likely I lost too much air speed . . . LoL!! However, we have experts in the two videos above who don't think inexperienced individuals could make the corrections necessary in the last minutes of their flights to have hit three out of three targets . . . I tend to believe their estimates . . . seems investigators could easily prove it probable . . . or not . . . I would love to see such a demonstration . . .
Many people agree with you . . . I think a full sized civilian airliner would have much trouble accomplishing the feat myself . . . Commander Ted Muga, U.S. Navy (ret) is a Navy aviator, who, after retirement, had a second career as a commercial airline pilot for Pan-Am.
In a 2007 interview. . . Muga stated, “The maneuver at the Pentagon was just a tight spiral coming down out of
7,000 feet. And a commercial aircraft, while they can, in fact, structurally
somewhat handle that maneuver, they are very, very, very difficult. And it
would take considerable training. In other words, commercial aircraft are
designed for a particular purpose and that is for comfort and for
passengers and it's not for military maneuvers. And while they are
structurally capable of doing them, it takes some very, very talented pilots
to do that. ... I just can't imagine an amateur even being able to come
close to performing a maneuver of that nature.
“And as far as hijacking the airplanes, once again getting back to the
nature of pilots and airplanes, there is no way that a pilot would give up an
airplane to hijackers. ... I mean, hell, a guy doesn't give up a TV remote
control much less a complicated 757. And so to think that pilots would
allow a plane to be taken over by a couple of 5 foot 7, 150 pound guys
with a one-inch blade boxcutter is ridiculous.
“And also in all four planes, if you remember, none of the planes ever switched on their transponder to the
hijack code. There's a very, very simple code that you put in if you suspect that your plane is being
hijacked. It takes literally just a split-second for you to put your hand down on the center console and flip it
over. And not one of the four planes ever transponded a hijack code, which is most, most unusual. ..."
Many people agree with you . . . I think a full sized civilian airliner would have much trouble accomplishing the feat myself . . . Commander Ted Muga, U.S. Navy (ret) is a Navy aviator, who, after retirement, had a second career as a commercial airline pilot for Pan-Am.
In a 2007 interview. . . Muga stated, “The maneuver at the Pentagon was just a tight spiral coming down out of
7,000 feet. And a commercial aircraft, while they can, in fact, structurally
somewhat handle that maneuver, they are very, very, very difficult. And it
would take considerable training. In other words, commercial aircraft are
designed for a particular purpose and that is for comfort and for
passengers and it's not for military maneuvers. And while they are
structurally capable of doing them, it takes some very, very talented pilots
to do that. ... I just can't imagine an amateur even being able to come
close to performing a maneuver of that nature.
“And as far as hijacking the airplanes, once again getting back to the
nature of pilots and airplanes, there is no way that a pilot would give up an
airplane to hijackers. ... I mean, hell, a guy doesn't give up a TV remote
control much less a complicated 757. And so to think that pilots would
allow a plane to be taken over by a couple of 5 foot 7, 150 pound guys
with a one-inch blade boxcutter is ridiculous.
“And also in all four planes, if you remember, none of the planes ever switched on their transponder to the
hijack code. There's a very, very simple code that you put in if you suspect that your plane is being
hijacked. It takes literally just a split-second for you to put your hand down on the center console and flip it
over. And not one of the four planes ever transponded a hijack code, which is most, most unusual. ..."