The MOD admits spraying the UK public between 1940 and 1979 in secret trials

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I'm curious as to the point of doing the test over an actual populated area. You know as well as anyone that winds change, and likewise the spread of what's being sprayed.

They could have just picked a better spot.

With the use of biological/chemical warfare people and transport are important transmission vectors for the agents used. To me it makes sense to do such a test in a populated area to be able to track the agents progress, especially with something like Anthrax. Nasties like that are extremely resilient. A good example is Foot and Mouth disease. The Uk has had a couple of outbreaks in recent years. While it can be transmitted by air an important route is transport. When farms are quarantined all vechiles are treated as contaminated and disinfected at the gate on exit and entry.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
No, it was an attempt to describe the events as I perceived them.

I believe the law was changed as a reaction to forcible vaccinations of Gulf War servicemen. Nothing to do with ZCS.
I think there were multiple factors in the debate and decision . . . The Gulf War Syndrome and the debate over Human Experimentation IMO were significant factors. . . . the only way to sort this out would be study the timelines of each congressional inquiry and narratives of the rational behind the change to the US Code in depth . . . this would necessitate considerable investment in time and effort beyond what I am willing to invest at this time nor do I believe the effort would be definitive or fruitful . . . in my previous attempt I found it most difficult to clearly outline these influences . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
With the use of biological/chemical warfare people and transport are important transmission vectors for the agents used. To me it makes sense to do such a test in a populated area to be able to track the agents progress, especially with something like Anthrax. Nasties like that are extremely resilient. A good example is Foot and Mouth disease. The Uk has had a couple of outbreaks in recent years. While it can be transmitted by air an important route is transport. When farms are quarantined all vechiles are treated as contaminated and disinfected at the gate on exit and entry.
Obviously there are more factors and complications with the study of biochemical agents than the distance the wind might carry them . . .
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Sure that was the accepted explanation and was probably the motivation . . . Yet, the information derived from said project can be used for both defensive and offensive purposes and why the decades long secrecy?? No one likes to be a test subject even if unintended without their consent . . .

Sorry I missed this. With reference to the MOD in the UK virtually all docments are classified and as such are not declassified until 30 years are up and then moved to the National Archive (the rule is changing to 20 years). That is just standard practice. However given the importance of such information do you want to put it out in the public arena and essentially do the groundwork for the Soviets? The UK military has an appauling reputation for experimentation at Porton Down, but I side with them on this one. Given the sensitivity of any data collected it would be difficult to have public consent and consultation without the Soviets knowing.



Just on a side note CTer's have been raising this article recently as though it is some new revelation even though it is 11 years old. I wonder if the OP noticed that?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Sorry I missed this. With reference to the MOD in the UK virtually all docments are classified and as such are not declassified until 30 years are up and then moved to the National Archive (the rule is changing to 20 years). That is just standard practice. However given the importance of such information do you want to put it out in the public arena and essentially do the groundwork for the Soviets? The UK military has an appauling reputation for experimentation at Porton Down, but I side with them on this one. Given the sensitivity of any data collected it would be difficult to have public consent and consultation without the Soviets knowing.



Just on a side note CTer's have been raising this article recently as though it is some new revelation even though it is 11 years old. I wonder if the OP noticed that?
Are you concerned that the Soviets would know such testing took place or the technical details of how it was performed and the results? I don't think the US, Canada or the UK have ever released the results of these trials nor should they. . . that in my opinion is a different question form:

1) Were the substances potentially harmful in the present tense
2) Should not the public have been informed they were being exposed to the simulant
3) If they were not informed at the time. . . when should they have been informed. . .
4) Under what law or need did this experimentation become approved and by who . . .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I think there were multiple factors in the debate and decision . . . The Gulf War Syndrome and the debate over Human Experimentation IMO were significant factors. . . . the only way to sort this out would be study the timelines of each congressional inquiry and narratives of the rational behind the change to the US Code in depth . . . this would necessitate considerable investment in time and effort beyond what I am willing to invest at this time nor do I believe the effort would be definitive or fruitful . . . in my previous attempt I found it most difficult to clearly outline these influences . . .

Link to previous thread on the topic:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/11...make-human-experimentation-illegal-Chemtrails
 
Last edited:

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Last edited by a moderator:

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
After review of this Thread again I do not see where it proves or disproves the influence of GWS, immunizations, human experimentation debate in Congress or specifically the dispersal of Zinc Cadmum Sulfide are the proximate cause of the US Code repeal and modification to include informed consent . . .

The ZCS trials were never considered human experimentation, so would not have been covered by the old or the new law.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
The ZCS trials were never considered human experimentation, so would not have been covered by the old or the new law.
While technically one can argue it was not experimentation . . . it is obvious from the Congressional debate it was included within the same testimony . . . and thereby was by association an influence in the non-consent issues of human experimentation . . .
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Are you concerned that the Soviets would know such testing took place or the technical details of how it was performed and the results? I don't think the US, Canada or the UK have ever released the results of these trials nor should they. . . that in my opinion is a different question form:

1) Were the substances potentially harmful in the present tense
2) Should not the public have been informed they were being exposed to the simulant
3) If they were not informed at the time. . . when should they have been informed. . .
4) Under what law or need did this experimentation become approved and by who . . .

The conern would be the Soviets getting their hands on the technical data to use in their own BW programme.

The results of the Porton Down trials are in the National Archive and are referenced in articles like this

http://oem.bmj.com/content/59/1/13.full

To answer your points while potentially toxic some if the substances were harmless in the quantities used (to the extent of knowledge at the time). Much the same can be said fir the bacteria used.

The issue over consent is a difficult one. You have to balance the need for national security against individual rights. Then you have to take into account the context at the time. We have Human Rights Acts to cover us now but the 50's and 60's were a different time. The use of such weapons was a real concern and we have the benefit of computer simulations and modelling now. For my part I see it as a necessary evil. The information gained was invaluable to defence doctrine and policy. The UK military certainly developed some of the best NBC warfare kit and methods partly based on such trials. I think if there had been a fighting war with the Soviets and such weapons used the issue of consent would be academic as people would have experienced the defence measures the trials produced.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
The conern would be the Soviets getting their hands on the technical data to use in their own BW programme.

The results of the Porton Down trials are in the National Archive and are referenced in articles like this

http://oem.bmj.com/content/59/1/13.full

To answer your points while potentially toxic some if the substances were harmless in the quantities used (to the extent of knowledge at the time). Much the same can be said fir the bacteria used.

The issue over consent is a difficult one. You have to balance the need for national security against individual rights. Then you have to take into account the context at the time. We have Human Rights Acts to cover us now but the 50's and 60's were a different time. The use of such weapons was a real concern and we have the benefit of computer simulations and modelling now. For my part I see it as a necessary evil. The information gained was invaluable to defence doctrine and policy. The UK military certainly developed some of the best NBC warfare kit and methods partly based on such trials. I think if there had been a fighting war with the Soviets and such weapons used the issue of consent would be academic as people would have experienced the defence measures the trials produced.
I do not discount your concerns regarding the need for knowledge to develop data to counter a biochemical warfare attack; however, there should be and should have been limits to the expediency practiced by the UK, US and Canadian authorities in my opinion . . . especially once this information was gained and there was no need to continue the secrecy . . . I truly believe the reason for the lack of transparency in these historical trials was more from embarrassment than the fear of exposing classified information . . . ;)
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I do not discount your concerns regarding the need for knowledge to develop data to counter a biochemical warfare attack; however, there should be and should have been limits to the expediency practiced by the UK, US and Canadian authorities in my opinion . . . especially once this information was gained and there was no need to continue the secrecy . . . I truly believe the reason for the lack of transparency in these historical trials was more from embarrassment than the fear of exposing classified information . . . ;)

I totally agree George, but lets be honest "transparency" is hardly a word used by governments 50 years ago. I mentioned earlier that Porton Down has a dreadful record for unethical testing. I did a great deal of NBC training and would be shown videos for some of their tests. Also some of the training involved substances used in the trials, but we gave explicit consent. We were even exposed to non lethal chemical agents and honed our decontamination skills using live bacteria/chemicals. However the government are being as transparent as they can. I used to go to a place called Winterbourne Gunner, next door to Porton Down, for NBC training (as a medic). The place even gets a mention on the UK Gov website now. Back in the day that was unthinkable
https://www.gov.uk/defence-chemical-biological-radiological-and-nuclear-centre#dcbrnc-courses
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I totally agree George, but lets be honest "transparency" is hardly a word used by governments 50 years ago. I mentioned earlier that Porton Down has a dreadful record for unethical testing. I did a great deal of NBC training and would be shown videos for some of their tests. Also some of the training involved substances used in the trials, but we gave explicit consent. We were even exposed to non lethal chemical agents and honed our decontamination skills using live bacteria/chemicals. However the government are being as transparent as they can. I used to go to a place called Winterbourne Gunner, next door to Porton Down, for NBC training (as a medic). The place even gets a mention on the UK Gov website now. Back in the day that was unthinkable
https://www.gov.uk/defence-chemical-biological-radiological-and-nuclear-centre#dcbrnc-courses

The issue of transparency . . . generally a new term to us old guys but something we have been lead to believe we should somehow expect from our public servants . . . this is a significant issue in the discussion of Conspiracies . . . do we truly now have transparency or do we not . . . ? We were eventually told about the biochemical and radiological testing in and around the public 30 years or more after it occurred . . . are we to believe this no longer happens?
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
The issue of transparency . . . generally a new term to us old guys but something we have been lead to believe we should somehow expect from our public servants . . . this is a significant issue in the discussion of Conspiracies . . . do we truly now have transparency or do we not . . . ? We were eventually told about the biochemical and radiological testing in and around the public 30 years or more after it occurred . . . are we to believe this no longer happens?

I have faith in people George. Did I read you were an officer in the USAF? I am not saying you are like this, but there is a tendency for people to think that everyone just obeys orders. Maybe 50 years ago that could be semi-accurate, but we live in an entirely different world now. I am not saying there are no secrets, but people are more willing to come forward if their work is causing harm. I joined the army at 16 and left a S/Sgt. All I ever did was question everything. I was involved in the GWS cases as I gave blokes a choice on jabs, and did not take the drug Pyridostigamine Bromide. My experience has been one of me and my mates questioning many things. I trust people still do. Hey you always have Wikileaks ;-)
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I have faith in people George. Did I read you were an officer in the USAF? I am not saying you are like this, but there is a tendency for people to think that everyone just obeys orders. Maybe 50 years ago that could be semi-accurate, but we live in an entirely different world now. I am not saying there are no secrets, but people are more willing to come forward if their work is causing harm. I joined the army at 16 and left a S/Sgt. All I ever did was question everything. I was involved in the GWS cases as I gave blokes a choice on jabs, and did not take the drug Pyridostigamine Bromide. My experience has been one of me and my mates questioning many things. I trust people still do. Hey you always have Wikileaks ;-)
Yes, I was an officer in the USAF. . . coming through at the end of the Vietnam conflict and stayed until we were well into the second Gulf War . . . living through the Cold War and the leadership that was still in power from WWII and the Korean Conflict there was a different mind set . . . I believe the Military Industrial Complex is real and still very effective and it detests transparency . . .
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Yes, I was an officer in the USAF. . . coming through at the end of the Vietnam conflict and stayed until we were well into the second Gulf War . . . living through the Cold War and the leadership that was still in power from WWII and the Korean Conflict there was a different mind set . . . I believe the Military Industrial Complex is real and still very effective and it detests transparency . . .

Thanks for the info George, and wow. I apologise for being flippant about the military. Howrver I will argue with your use of the term Military Industrial Complex. I am in the UK and we are fucked. Your faith on your system does not translate very well
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Thanks for the info George, and wow. I apologise for being flippant about the military. Howrver I will argue with your use of the term Military Industrial Complex. I am in the UK and we are fucked. Your faith on your system does not translate very well
No need to apologize . . . could you explain your last two statements for me a bit I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying? Thanks!
 
Thread starter Related Articles Forum Replies Date
Ross Marsden Debunked: Weatherman admits "Meteorological Spraying" [It's Meteorological Spring] Contrails and Chemtrails 30
mrfintoil Debunked: CIA Director admits chemtrails, geoengineering, stratospheric aerosol injection Contrails and Chemtrails 24
Mick West Explained: Head Of The Army Admits to "Little Green Men" [Covert Russian Agents] Conspiracy Theories 7
Trailblazer Debunked: "Top climate scientist Tim Lenton admits to ongoing geoengineering" Contrails and Chemtrails 23
M Debunked: Bush "Admits" to Explosives used at WTC 9/11 0
Critical Thinker The Anti Media, makes bogus claim that "CDC admits Ebola could be airborne" Conspiracy Theories 75
J Debunked: Al gore admits to chemtrails Contrails and Chemtrails 3
BlueCollarCritic Debunked: US AIrforce Admits that HARRP is used for Climate Engineering HAARP 7
Mick West Debunked: Mainstream media admits smart meters are spying devices Conspiracy Theories 9
Tim TheToolman Coles Debunked: Infowars: "Latest Climate Report Admits Chemtrails Exist" Contrails and Chemtrails 4
Rroval Video: US Government Admits UFOs in Press Conference | Disclosure UFOs and Aliens 3
BenC Debunked: UK Government admits Chemtrails (Legislation HC221) Contrails and Chemtrails 37
Jay Reynolds G. Edward Griffin Admits "Chemtrails" Are from Passenger Jets: "They are not tankers" Contrails and Chemtrails 1
HappyMonday Bill Gates Admits to Chemtrails Contrails and Chemtrails 0
Mick West Michael J. Murphy Admits Persistent Contrails Exist. Can't tell the difference. Contrails and Chemtrails 26
Mick West Debunked: Holdren admits Obama Administration is performing Geoengineering Quotes Debunked 0
Mick West Debunked: CFR Admits "Millions Spent to Confuse Public About Geoengineering" Quotes Debunked 0
SR1419 CDC admits flu vaccines don't work Health and Quackery 9
ThorGoLucky Power Balance admits false claims Health and Quackery 2
Trailblazer Explained: Vatican "chemtrail spraying" coin [part of set depicting Pope's travels] Contrails and Chemtrails 4
deirdre J.Marvin Herndon tries to pass off Bird Poop as evidence of "chemtrail" spraying Contrails and Chemtrails 24
Mick West Debunked: Irrefutable Film Footage Of Climate Engineering Aerosol Spraying [Aerodynamic Contrails] Contrails and Chemtrails 4
T Explained/Debunked: "Irrefutable Footage of Climate Engineering Aerosol Spraying" - Explanations? Contrails and Chemtrails 20
Steve Funk Claim, C130 aircraft are spraying mysterious filaments. Contrails and Chemtrails 5
Jay Reynolds Government of Cyprus said to find no evidence of spraying Contrails and Chemtrails 1
MikeG Toxic Spraying and Radio Frequency Bombardment Contrails and Chemtrails 9
Trailblazer Debunked: Look-up.org.uk's claims of aerial spraying over London on April 12 2015 Contrails and Chemtrails 21
ssfor27 Aircraft Caught "Spraying" over Key West Contrails and Chemtrails 8
Rusty Far Eye Plane Spraying Over Ocean [Oil Dispersant] Skydentify - What is that Thing in the Sky? 6
cmnit Electrical conductivity of atmosphere before/after "spraying" Contrails and Chemtrails 9
Rico Debunked: Dane Wigington's Undeniable Footage of Jet Aircraft Spraying [Aerodynamic Contrails] Contrails and Chemtrails 42
Leifer Athletes would be affected the most by air toxicity (spraying), but are they ? Contrails and Chemtrails 15
Svartbjørn Debunked (sort of): Picture of LEO spraying a child with Mace General Discussion 1
Gundersen Debunked: Airline Passengers Told To Lower Shades During Chemtrail Spraying Contrails and Chemtrails 25
M "Hovering" C-130 Spraying in Corpus Christi, Texas Skydentify - What is that Thing in the Sky? 100
Mick West Debunked: Photos of Spraying out the Back of a Cargo Plane [Malaysian Cloud Seeding from C-130] Contrails and Chemtrails 4
W Debunk NASA is proposing spraying stratospheric aerosols. Contrails and Chemtrails 9
David Fraser Explained: Search plane in MH370 filmed spraying over Indian Ocean [Fuel dump] Contrails and Chemtrails 18
Jay Reynolds Debunked: KC-10 Video with Aerodynamic Contrails and Flap Track Fairings as Proof of "Spraying" West/Wigington Geoengineering Debate 49
Mick West Debunked: Who In The World Is Spraying Contrails and Chemtrails 27
Jimbo They're Spraying Us Like Bugs Contrails and Chemtrails 10
G Russia practices weather modification by spraying cement m-500 Contrails and Chemtrails 1
Mick West Factual Errors in "Why In The World Are They Spraying" Contrails and Chemtrails 57
Mick West Debunked: Why In The World Are They Spraying - Wingtip Fuel Dump Photo Contrails and Chemtrails 26
U Major spraying over Detroit/Windsor Contrails and Chemtrails 8
Mick West Debunked: "The U.S. and many NATO countries are spraying in order to save the planet" Quotes Debunked 9
Mick West Debunked: WHY in the World are They Spraying Contrails and Chemtrails 82
Jay Reynolds A Conversation With Dr. Lenny Thyme from "What In The World Are They Spraying" Contrails and Chemtrails 15
R “Shortly, the public will be unable to reason or think for themselves...” — Zbigniew Brzezinski Quotes Debunked 7
Trailblazer Debunked: Australia Becomes First Country To Begin Microchipping Its Public Conspiracy Theories 0
Related Articles


















































Related Articles

Top