The Age of Disclosure film

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despite over 70 years of research, "ufology" still has no idea what UFOs are like; all they know is what they're not like because everything else gets debunked immediately
But we're told in this film that we know what they are like because they have been physically recovered along with their pilots.
What is your guys opinion of why these high level people in this movie , about 30 of them , say the things they say ? making extraordinary claims? I don't understand their motivation. These are very serious highly educated and decorated people.How does it benefit them?
It's a big club and you ain't in it — George Carlin
The film avoids probing what each speaker believes or claims to have witnessed, and the filmmaker doesn't push for any specifics about the well reported ghosts and paranormal entities some of them claim to have had encounters with. So, there's a range of motivations from Dietrich's mild curiosity about a thing she saw and a seemingly honorable desire to see safer airspace and better UFO reporting, to Eric Davis's matter-of-fact claim that we have the craft and alien bodies (although not sure what his exact motivation is other than being a "telling it how it is" talking head). Others like Nolan/Gallaudet are motivated to appear because they have businesses that rely on appearing like they're experts on UFOs so all media increases their credibility and is self-promotion. The active politicians Rubio, Andre Carson etc don't really say much of consequence, they're motivated to show that they're approachable/responsive to public interest, (Burchett, just appears to enjoy the drama & the spotlight).
The Kuleshov effect is likely strong for audiences who have never heard of any of these speakers and it makes it appear they are all talking about the same thing (alien presence), are motivated toward "disclosure" and that the "6 observables" relate to each and every piece of "UFO" footage.
But, the filmmaker didn't do any heavy lifting to bring these voices out of the woodwork to speak publicly he just asked them to turn up for a shoot and to repeat an abridged version of the same stuff they've all said numerous times before.
 
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What is your guys opinion of why these high level people in this movie , about 30 of them , say the things they say ? making extraordinary claims? I don't understand their motivation. These are very serious highly educated and decorated people.How does it benefit them?

Here's a series of questions I would ask to work through this particular problem:

1) Does the person making the claim have first-hand knowledge of what they are talking about?

2) If they do, is there any corroborating evidence and what is the quality and availability of that evidence?

3) If there isn't sufficient evidence available to corroborate the claim, does the person making the claim have a history of bullshitting or (best case scenario) being easily fooled by hoaxers?

4) Do the people making second-hand claims have any links to the people that claim to possess first-hand knowledge?

I generally find those basic questions will weed out a lot of nonsense.
 
But we're told in this film that we know what they are like because they have been physically recovered along with their pilots.
...

Glad you mentioned that because it should get more attention than it does.

The recovered alien "pilots" trope appears to me an artifact of the historical period during which UFOs became a national conversation. The naive assumption on the part of a casual observer is that UFOs "fly" and are therefore analogous to aircraft and later to spacecraft. They are therefore expected to be piloted machines as only a handful of unpiloted examples existed in the human historical record.

As we now know, the proportion of unmanned vs manned spacecraft has increasing continuously for three generations now. We are now past point of thousands of unmanned craft for each human crew going into orbit. Beyond Earth orbit, our programs are 100% robotic. Robotic spacecraft have now returned samples from the Moon, asteroids, and comets. Mars is probably next. So there is no good reason for biological aliens to be physically present in any sort of role on the Earth's surface.

Aircraft operations are moving in the same direction as unmanned systems become more and more capable. Robotic air taxis are pending approval in the US, China, and Australia.

We've already discussed some of these point here - https://www.metabunk.org/threads/th...-culture-in-the-changing-ufo-narrative.14506/

tl;dr - the claim of a recovered alien body should be considered a red flag that what you are hearing is a fish story, not a factual report of evidence physically collected.

edited for clarity
 
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there is no good reason for biological aliens to be physically present in any sort of role on the Earth's surface.
The pilots of these craft are not extraterrestrial but aliens living terrestrially. They live beneath the ocean and the reason why their amazing technology crashes is not because they've come from the vast distance of space, and can't handle the local conditions here, but because they occasionally have mishaps trying to get back to their super secret bases dotted around the hollowed Earth.
Also, they are demons, and we have corporeal specimens of them in some hanger somewhere. (Presumably piloting physical craft for no apparent reason other than to occasionally scare farmers and pilots is surplus to requirements as demons are shape-shifting entities that can walk through bedroom walls with ease or bat glowing orbs around the homes of chosen UFO percipients)....or something.
Here's a series of questions
These are good questions...I feel a table coming on...
 
In addition, there are probably some who have no qualms about inserting themselves into the narrative for either pure ego gratification or to possibly capitalize on commercial opportunities that may arise from doing so.
I think this is a larger faction among the general population of UFOlogists than you might suppose. It gives them the opportunity to rub elbows with people who are the big names of the Believers, it gives them a sense of being part of the "in" crowd, it gives them bragging rights at home or "clicks" on line. It's a lot like the way young folk might crowd around a rock star.
 
@weapon2010
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we don't see any congressional hearings into Bigfoot or sworn testimony,
No, we don't. Perhaps that's so because there is not a large body of voters demanding a hearing on the subject.
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there clearly is something going on
No, there isn't "clearly" any such thing.
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We can not use the same logic against the UFO believers that you claim they use to say its real.
I'm not sure that UFO believers use "logic" in their claims at all. If someone sees a light in the sky, then claims that because they don't know what it is, therefore THEY know what it is, where's the logic in that? If the person thinks they see a light in the sky, then invents the size, speed, and distance of that object without any way of doing an honest calculation of those parameters, where's the logic in that? If someone you don't know tells you something that he alone saw, and you believe him completely without seeing it yourself or knowing his motivations for telling the story, where's the logic in that?
 
Thanks to Mr Farah on Joe Rogon the real Enemy is China. Aliens from outer space are no real concen. The Industrial Military Entertainment complex dropped another project.
I have been completely convinced by
multiple members of the intelligence
community, the military, senior leaders
in government, people who are running
the Senate Armed Services Committee, the
Senate Intelligence Committee, someone
who sits on the White House National
Security Council that our country has
recovered dozens dozens of crashed craft
of non-human origin and done so since
the 40s and there has been success
reverse engineering elements of this
technology and the same thing has been
happening in China and Russia and it's a
very real situation. It's a highstakes
situation. It is referred to as the
atomic race on steroids.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=NSFaaq3vhfY
 
What is your guys opinion of why these high level people in this movie , about 30 of them , say the things they say ? making extraordinary claims? I don't understand their motivation. These are very serious highly educated and decorated people.How does it benefit them?
Like a lot of UFO-related presentations, Age of Disclosure is carefully edited to make it look like all the participants agree in the same phenomenon -- something vaguely about alien saucers flying in our skies and messing with our military -- when some of them actually violently disagree with each other.

Rubio contends that UAP are human technology that may be created by our adversaries and that our own intelligence agencies are being needlessly secretive. Gallaudet says he has no direct knowledge, but believes there are non-human intelligences operating in our oceans. Some of these officials are repeating stories from other people who've said they've touched or seen captured alien craft, while others say UFOs are an intangible or spiritual phenomenon that can be summoned by meditation. Elizondo has contradicted himself more than once, claims to have psychic powers and had his house repeatedly visited by glowing green orbs he never bothered to document, and for evidence of alien craft on Earth has shown off photos of a light fixture reflecting in a hotel window and an irrigation circle seen from altitude.

The amazing thing is you'll get all these people on stage at UAP conferences carefully not talking about how they contradict each other and then applauding each year as a step closer to the federal government acknowledging that one of their theories is correct.
 
Thanks to Mr Farah on Joe Rogon the real Enemy is China. Aliens from outer space are no real concen. The Industrial Military Entertainment complex dropped another project.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=NSFaaq3vhfY

As you're new here, we try to explain our sources a bit better. I'm assuming this is a quote from a Joe Rogan podcast with Farah? If so, a timestamp would be helpful as Rogan's shows are a bit lengthy and a hint as to who said it. Repeating the quote here, I don't understand your claim about China:


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I have been completely convinced by
multiple members of the intelligence
community, the military, senior leaders
in government, people who are running
the Senate Armed Services Committee, the
Senate Intelligence Committee, someone
who sits on the White House National
Security Council that our country has
recovered dozens dozens of crashed craft
of non-human origin and done so since
the 40s and there has been success
reverse engineering elements of this
technology and the same thing has been
happening in China and Russia and it's a
very real situation. It's a highstakes
situation. It is referred to as the
atomic race on steroids.
If this is Farah speaking, he's saying everybody has crashed UFOs and we're all reverse engineering them, so it is most definitely about aliens. This trope is often repeated, but to me it really falls apart when someone includes Russia or China in this claim.

Given that in several years now, the Russians have failed to attain air-superiority over Ukraine and have continued in a mass casualty land war reminiscent of the human wave strategy of the Iraq-Iran war of the '80s, it seems more than a stretch to suggest the Russians are reverse engineering high-tech crashed UFOs to create super weapons. Their lone gen-5 stealth aircraft, the Su57, has seen only sporadic use in Ukraine.

If the Russians had super weapons reverse engineered from crashed UFOs, they would have used them by now. They haven't, because they don't. And if the Soviets/Russians don't have weapons reverse engineered from crashed UFOs, it's like the US and China don't either.

Besides the simply ludicrous notion that aliens have mastered interstellar or even intergalactic travel only to crash at an alarming rate once they get here resulting in the US alone having "dozens" of them, inserting China into this argument is equally problematic. Recall a bit of history regarding this claim. It contends that these recovery operations have been going on since the '40s if not longer. That might make sense up until the '90s when the US and the Soviet Union were in the Cold War. But the Soviet Union collapsed in 1990 and fractured into lots of independent countries. Many were somewhat hostile to their former Russian overlords. So what happens when a UFO crashes in one of their countries? It's no longer a Soviet prize. The Turks, the Uzbeks, the Tajikes they all have crashed UFOs as well? Or they just gave them to Russia?

As for China, during most of the time period in question, it was NOT a technological or industrial powerhouse. Coming off the Communist revolution of the '40s and then the Cultural Revolution of the '70s left China similar to a developing country. It was only in the '80s when China started to become what it is now:

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In 1981, the Communist Party publicly acknowledged numerous failures of the Cultural Revolution, declaring it "responsible for the most severe setback and the heaviest losses suffered by the people, the country, and the party since the founding of the People's Republic."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

China was simply in no condition to capture and reverse engineer crashed UFOs until well into the '90s if not later. This is classic fear mongering. People are taking a well worn Cold War trope, like the Soviets are beating the west when it comes to reverse engineering crashed UFOs, and adding a new character to the plot because China has invested a lot of energy in upgrading their military over the last 20 years. Not because they have crashed UFOs.

EDIT: Format mess up. Only happens when I don't use the preview button first :mad:
 
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My " hundreds" I am referring to is the amount of people over the years that are military people , pilots, Navy personel ,upper level people in government. So if all of them are not part of the disinfo campaign ( which there is no evidence of just like aliens) that means some are telling what they believe to be true , its a tangled twisted mess that neither side can prove their case.
I'd say the notion that "some are telling what they believe to be true" probably accounts for most of it. They do believe it. But rarely, if ever, are they able to provide any corroborating evidence to support those beliefs. As far as these same people holding impressive-looking credentials from the military or government, two people immediately spring to mind as examples of why one should be cautious when attributing undo credibility to their claims merely due to their rank, title or position held.

1) Paul Hellyer who served as the Canadian Minister of National Defence in the 1960s. That, in and of itself, should lend some weight to his claims of aliens and UFOs, no? Someone in his position would surely have access to information that the rest of us plebs would never be granted, right? Before his death in 2021, Hellyer was quite vocal in his public support of the topic, confidently referring to recovered craft and different species of beings who had visited our planet multiple times. Only one problem with all of this: His sources and inspiration for such statements? Not any Top Secret government briefings or guided tours of Area 51. Rather he, himself, referred to "many wonderful books" that were written on the topic. Like so many others both before and after him (David Grusch comes to mind), they are all influenced in the same way by the likes of Jacque Vallee, Philip Corso and other prominent authors within the UFO community, as well as decades worth of exposure to the same sci-fi films and TV that the rest of us were. Hellyer is held in high regard by many UFO enthusiasts simply because of his high-ranking position in government. But in reality, his professional life had little, if anything, to do with his perspective or insight on the UAP/NHI topic. He simply exposed himself to all the same decades-old lore, and personally found it compelling enough to become a true believer. Although even after years of government service, he never provided a single shred of evidence to support those beliefs.

2) Ryan Graves, a former Lt. in the U.S. Navy as well as being an experienced (and presumably well-trained) F/A-18F combat pilot, with two deployments, who also holds a degree in mechanical and aerospace engineering. By all standards, that's a pretty impressive resume. Surely his testimony about UAPs would be more valid than the Average Joe, no? Again, however, we run into one particular obstacle in all this. Despite his numerous podcast appearances and public testimony before Congress, Graves himself has never seen a UAP with his own eyes. You'd be forgiven for believing otherwise due to the carefully crafted narrative that he tends to spin around the topic, but the facts are the facts. He's never experienced anything firsthand. When asked, point blank, in front of Congress if he had, his simple answer was, "No."

His testimony revolves around the supposed sightings from others in his squadron, as well as unexplained observations on radar and other tracking equipment. I've no reason to think that Graves himself is involved in a deliberate misinfo campaign, but his much-publicized reports on the matter of UAPs would appear to be driven far more by belief than provable facts or firsthand experience. As is so often the case, the supposed evidence relies on the testimony of others (who didn't participate in the public hearings themselves) or vague and often unproven electronic "data."

Time and time again in Ufology: When you peel back the layers, you're often left with something far less impressive than what you started with.
 
Like a lot of UFO-related presentations, Age of Disclosure is carefully edited to make it look like all the participants agree in the same phenomenon -- something vaguely about alien saucers flying in our skies and messing with our military -- when some of them actually violently disagree with each other.

Rubio contends that UAP are human technology that may be created by our adversaries and that our own intelligence agencies are being needlessly secretive. Gallaudet says he has no direct knowledge, but believes there are non-human intelligences operating in our oceans. Some of these officials are repeating stories from other people who've said they've touched or seen captured alien craft, while others say UFOs are an intangible or spiritual phenomenon that can be summoned by meditation. Elizondo has contradicted himself more than once, claims to have psychic powers and had his house repeatedly visited by glowing green orbs he never bothered to document, and for evidence of alien craft on Earth has shown off photos of a light fixture reflecting in a hotel window and an irrigation circle seen from altitude.

The amazing thing is you'll get all these people on stage at UAP conferences carefully not talking about how they contradict each other and then applauding each year as a step closer to the federal government acknowledging that one of their theories is correct.

I think all agree about un-attributed UFOs that rapidly accelerate to extreme speeds. The case for taking this serious isn't being represented by most skeptics here in a serious or unbiased way. If you go by what most skeptics say, you'll be mislead. If you go by what most believers say, you'll be mislead. I am just for an honest sober inquiry.

With as much side discussion on the topic, I think it would be worth it to start a dedicated thread that examines the topic comprehensively and steel mans the case instead of straw manning it. That's how we can promote an honest and rational basis for forming opinions. I don't know if such a thread would pass Metabunk policy, since Metabunk focuses on specific claims of evidence. But the comments stray a lot from that policy in side discussions, just almost always in a one sided direction, while comments straying to the other side of the debate get regulated heavily.

If a holistic exploration and steel manning of the case for rapidly accelerated physical craft isn't allowed on Metabunk, I hope members are doing this elsewhere or on their own time, in order to get a clear sober picture of the topic. But since it keeps popping up over and over again anyways in side discussions, I would recommend just do it here.
 
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I think all agree about un-attributed UFOs that rapidly accelerate to extreme speeds. The case for taking this serious isn't being represented by most skeptics here in a serious or unbiased way. If you go by what most skeptics say, you'll be mislead.
There. is. no. evidence.
That's what we're saying, and it's turned out true time and time again.

The ones who turn out to be wrong, who are proven to have peddled bunk, intentionally or not, aren't us.
 
I think all agree about un-attributed UFOs that rapidly accelerate to extreme speeds. The case for taking this serious isn't being represented by most skeptics here in a serious or unbiased way.
If by "all" you mean "all who read this message that I just posted", you are sadly mistaken. That's a claim you'll need to provide evidence for, and no, "an eyewitness who had no way to measure the speed" is just a story, not evidence. Without evidence, what have we to consider seriously? There's no there there.
 
There. is. no. evidence.
That's what we're saying, and it's turned out true time and time again.

The ones who turn out to be wrong, who are proven to have peddled bunk, intentionally or not, aren't us.

If you don't address the strongest argument, then when someone comes along and hears that strongest argument, and then comes here to see what the skeptics think, and notices the skeptics didn't address that argument, they won't be persuaded against the argument by the skeptics. And also, they will wonder why the skeptics are distorting things, avoiding addressing the strongest argument, and appealing to ridicule, which can lead to mistrust and animosity.
 
If by "all" you mean "all who read this message that I just posted", you are sadly mistaken. That's a claim you'll need to provide evidence for, and no, "an eyewitness who had no way to measure the speed" is just a story, not evidence. Without evidence, what have we to consider seriously? There's no there there.
The people jdog was referring to in the post I was replying to.
 
If you don't address the strongest argument, then when someone comes along and here that strongest argument, and then comes here to see what the skeptics think, and notice the skeptics didn't address that argument, they won't be persuaded against the argument. And also, they will wonder why the skeptics are distorting things and avoiding addressing the strongest argument, which leads to mistrust and animosity.
WHAT "strongest argument"? And why should scientists who deal with evidence be impressed by an evidence-free argument in the first place?

As for your reply clarifying the "all" to which you referred, thanks for that, but my confusion stemmed from your immediately segue into a criticism of skeptics in general. Have you forgotten who you're talking to on this site? We will continue to analyze any evidence if it comes our way, but stories remain just stories.
 
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Why should you feel the need to attack the weakest arguments...
Because that's all the proponents of woo ever offer (re. "rapidly accelerating to extreme speeds,") etc.

Not bothering to try to prop up empty "evidence" (which you seem to be characterizing as steel manning)
is not the same as MBers creating fallacies, including straw men. It's just not.
 
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As for your reply clarifying the "all" to which you referred, thanks for that, but my confusion stemmed from your immediately segue into a criticism of skeptics in general. Have you forgotten who you're talking to on this site? We will continue to analyze any evidence if it comes our way, but stories remain just stories.

Because the hard evidence that is purported to exist is classified. And we have an enormous amount of credible circumstantial evidence that a lot of people find compelling. If you don't address it holistically in earnest, then all you do is lose trust and fail to convince a lot of people who have and recognize the red flags in your treatment of the subject. It damages your own credibility, and fails to address the rational reasons why a lot of people think there is likely something to this.
 
Because the hard evidence that is purported to exist is classified. And we have an enormous amount of credible circumstantial evidence that a lot of people find compelling. If you don't address it holistically in earnest, then all you do is lose trust and fail to convince a lot of people who have and recognize the red flags in your treatment of the subject. It damages your own credibility, and fails to address the rational reasons why a lot of people think there is likely something to this.
You have every right to believe that there is important hidden evidence, that is probably very strong and compelling.

As long as it's hidden, no one can know, thus no intelligent discourse about it can take place.

Most here have been told that great evidence was "coming," 100x, and found that it proved out in 0 cases...
 
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Because the hard evidence that is purported to exist is classified.
I assume that means you haven't seen it yourself, yet you still praise it as "true stuff"? Sorry, but "a lot of people think" still isn't evidence, and we still have nothing to examine critically.

"So the eyes of the Infanta, that you haven't seen, are bluer than that other thing you haven't seen."
(Blackadder)
 
With as much side discussion on the topic, I think it would be worth it to start a dedicated thread that examines the topic comprehensively and steel mans the case instead of straw manning it.

I'm not a moderator, BUT one can usually have a thread like that under the "General Discussion" sub-forum or worst case under the "Chitcaht" sub-forum. I've started threads about cocktails, Roger Waters ego, and even Burningman there. The same politeness rules apply. However, I would caution that even in a Chitchat thread, if one is making claims, other members will hold that person to our usually accepted rules: provide evidence and sources for the evidence, the no-click policy, no paraphrasing and so on.

So, if you want others to "steel man" something, you can start a thread and set the agenda.
 
I recommend we form a large diverse panel of trustworthy scientists and experts. Give them the security clearances to see all of the evidence. Make absolutely sure it's not just some of the evidence, has to be all. Put Roger Penrose, Terrance Tau, Avi Loeb, Mick West, Lisa Randall, Leonard Susskind, and some 500 others on it.

Why Roger Penrose? He's a significant mathematician and a physics Nobel Prize winner; he also has a record of advancing opinions about fields he's not qualified in (e.g. neuroscience) which are not widely accepted by qualified investigators in that field.
We have seen this with other Nobel laureates- great achievement in one, often highly specialised, area of knowledge does not necessarily indicate proficiency in other fields.
An obvious but not unique example might be James Watson. Fred Hoyle, not a Nobel laureate but whose work was instrumental in explaining stellar nucleosynthesis, later proposed something akin to "Intelligent Design", claiming archaeopteryx fossils- often seen as evidence for the reptilian ancestry of birds- were fakes. Needless to say, Hoyle wasn't a geologist or palaeontologist.

Avi Loeb has a record of suggesting 2 out of 3 extra-solar objects so far detected passing through the solar system are ETI artefacts, and has been noticeably reticent in accepting evidence otherwise (particularly re. 3I/ATLAS). His trawling for evidence of extrasolar debris on the seabed, and interpretation/ presentation of some of his finds, are not widely accepted as being credible.

While I'm sure both are thoroughly decent chaps, who we consider to be "trustworthy" in this specific context might be subjective.
 
While I'm sure both are thoroughly decent chaps, who we consider to be "trustworthy" in this specific context might be subjective.
The groups should be both qualified, and diverse enough that their consensus would be considered credible by a diverse mixture of lay people. Penrose is a great addition because he is both a genius and he is not dogmatic. Einstein, and many other highly notable physicists have held similarly controversial views, but I would include him too if he was still around.
 
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Why should you feel the need to attack the weakest arguments and use fallacies if the strongest argument is already weak enough to address convincingly?

How is that an answer to either part of Ann's:
WHAT "strongest argument"? And why should scientists who deal with evidence be impressed by an evidence-free argument in the first place?
?

Again: What strongest argument? Does this strongest argument have any tangible evidence associated with it? What and where is that evidence? Who's vetted it? Stop painting us as disingenuous by saying that we're not prepared to address the issue - you haven't brought the issue before us in a way that we can address.
 
How is that an answer to either part of Ann's:

?

Again: What strongest argument? Does this strongest argument have any tangible evidence associated with it? What and where is that evidence? Who's vetted it? Stop painting us as disingenuous by saying that we're not prepared to address the issue - you haven't brought the issue before us in a way that we can address.

What I think are strong arguments for why UFOs that accelerate suddenly to high speeds (etc.) might actually exist and the claims should be taken seriously, depends on examining the body of information thoroughly and holistically, which is why I said a new thread would be appropriate if Metabunk were to be willing to do that. But it would have to allow posting links to many long videos of people telling stories, and a willingness by the participants to view them. I didn't take an all caps demand for the strongest argument in this thread seriously, because of that reason and others. I just view that request, asked in that tone, in that context, as part of the pattern I was lamenting previously. I don't know how imperceptive you expect me to be.
 
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Watched it. It was more centered on Lue and AATIP than I hoped. But there were some notable statements in it from high level officials I haven't heard from before. Take away was as expected. Demands urgent independent investigation to get to the bottom of it. I recommend we form a large diverse panel of trustworthy scientists and experts. Give them the security clearances to see all of the evidence. Make absolutely sure it's not just some of the evidence, has to be all. Put Roger Penrose, Terrance Tau, Avi Loeb, Mick West, Lisa Randall, Leonard Susskind, and some 500 others on it. Enough people with relevant expertise and public trust, that it covers all relevant domains of inquiry and sides. Split them into independent groups. Each group studies the evidence in depth, and then publishes the results of their assessment. The panels are updated or expanded regularly, and the independent investigations go on indefinitely.
(My bold on the last phrase.)

The disclosure advocates are the ones who have already poisoned that well.

Suppose we do all that you have proposed and no earth shaking revelations are forthcoming. Your select committee reads all the classified records, reviews all the redacted files in the Pentagon basement, and finds no compelling case for NHI. Then what? Do you send them to Area 51? What are they looking for? Old documents that were never scanned into an IT system? A rusty black triangle in an old warehouse? A sub-sub-basement that isn't on any plans? The disclosure advocates are the ones claiming these things exist. What is to stop them from repeating such claims and making new accusations of cover-up? Nothing.

Send your committee to Alaska to inspect abandoned Cold War radar sites but if they don't find anything it would be unrealistic for you to expect the makers of this film to say, "sorry, we were wrong." This is their industry and their business model. They are story tellers and this is their genre. It works. It makes money. The last 20 years of the History [sic] Channel is proof.

AARO was created in part to give the Pentagon some cover from political pressure. Gives them someone to fob these cases off on so they can go back to whatever it is they do. Humans born in the next generation will be subject to all of the same errors of perception and judgement as those born in previous generations. They will continue to misinterpret the same range of phenomena as previous generations. You will never run out of reports to chase after and it doesn't matter who does the chasing.

Debunkers did not dig this rabbit hole. Check the credits of the film to see a partial list of who did.
 
The thread has been consistently largely off topic the whole time. It's just when someone responds in disagreement, a lot more off topic replies come afterwards. If you don't want the effects of critical responses to posts about certain things, then don't post about those things in the first place.
I think you're the third person this week who's come in trying to tone-police Metabunk.
 
AARO was created in part to give the Pentagon some cover from political pressure. Gives them someone to fob these cases off on so they can go back to whatever it is they do. Humans born in the next generation will be subject to all of the same errors of perception and judgement as those born in previous generations. They will continue to misinterpret the same range of phenomena as previous generations. You will never run out of reports to chase after and it doesn't matter who does the chasing.
Your confidence is misguided. And we shouldn't allow ourselves to be this susceptible to false confidence and early dismissals. The point is that we need to make the investigation credible, complete, and transparent. We should not fool ourselves about shortcomings in any of those core facets. If it was not complete, or transparent, or sufficiently credible, that should be recognized and accounted for.

What you are asking us to accept falls far short. The hypotheticals about what then, could come after we have more information, and depend on earnest evaluation of what took place, and what the findings were.
 
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With as much side discussion on the topic, I think it would be worth it to start a dedicated thread that examines the topic comprehensively and steel mans the case instead of straw manning it. That's how we can promote an honest and rational basis for forming opinions. I don't know if such a thread would pass Metabunk policy, since Metabunk focuses on specific claims of evidence.
Would be OK in the Chit Chat forum, I suppose. But check the list of existing threads, some sort of similar discussion may already be there. If so you could just comment there.

But...


But it would have to allow posting links to many long videos of people telling stories, and a willingness by the participants to view them.
... that sounds like a set up for a Gish Gallop. I do you the courtesy of believing that is not your intent. But that may be the effect. If your intent is just to post a slew of links to long videos and tell us to go watch them all and find our evidence for you, that won't work. Everybody here has seen long rambling evidence free videos before and are unlikely to willingly sit through a lot more. So if yours have the evidence in them, you'll still want to point to the relevant bits with a time stamp or something.


The point is that we need to make the investigation credible, complete, and transparent.
A more important point is that we can't do this, we have no ability to convene a panel of hundreds of experts to hold yet another review of old UFO cases (which has been done, repeatedly.) We have no ability to give them access to classified information. Unless you are secretly either a billionaire or a high government official (or both!) this is pointless for us to argue about.
 
Would be OK in the Chit Chat forum, I suppose. But check the list of existing threads, some sort of similar discussion may already be there. If so you could just comment there.
The Chit Chat forum is the place threads go when you don't want non-members to be able to see them. That would defeat the purpose of the thread I proposed.
 
What I think are strong arguments for why UFOs that accelerate suddenly to high speeds (etc.) might actually exist and the claims should be taken seriously, depends on examining the body of information thoroughly and holistically, which is why I said a new thread would be appropriate if Metabunk were to be willing to do that. But it would have to allow posting links to many long videos of people telling stories, and a willingness by the participants to view them. I didn't take an all caps demand for the strongest argument in this thread seriously, because of that reason and others. I just view that request, asked in that tone, in that context, as part of the pattern I was lamenting previously. I don't know how imperceptive you expect me to be.
So the strongest argument is that there are videos of people telling stories?

That's not a strong argument at all. It has no tangible evidence, for a start.
 
Because the hard evidence that is purported to exist is classified.
Evidence which is inaccessible is not evidence, it is someone's claim of evidence, which they can't demonstrate.
There are (conspiracy) theories that relevant evidence exists, but these theories aren't even evidence of evidence, as they are not testable or falsifiable: Whenever "disclosure" evidence is not found, it must be somewhere else.
Worse than that, when "evidence" loudly trumpeted by UFO enthusiasts is shown to be faked- say the Majestic 12 documents- "believers" claim it is disinformation, part of a cover-up and therefore it is evidence of a secret UFO-related program.

There is no testable evidence that a UFO has ever been determined to be an extraterrestrial craft by an agency of the US government (or by any other halfway credible authority).
There is no credible, testable evidence that an extraterrestrial craft has ever crashed on Earth. There is no real-world evidence that anyone has learnt anything, ever, from ETI artefacts or from ETIs directly. The idea that the fruits of back-engineering have been hoarded since c. 1947 doesn't make sense: No profits for corporations/ defence contractors, no improved defence for the United States (or Russia, or China, all vulnerable to each other's missiles), no benefits for voters (I might be naïve but I think most politicians try to improve things, and they're usually quick to receive any credit for doing so). Just (presumably) some ultra-secure environments (where?) and a cadre of scientists, engineers, security guards over seven decades who have never spoken out. All for no apparent purpose, as no-one benefits, and nothing is learned.

And we have an enormous amount of credible circumstantial evidence that a lot of people find compelling.
There is an enormous amount of evidence* from credible witnesses for personal visitations by the prophets of Islam, Hindu deities, the Blessed Virgin Mary and various Ascended Masters that a lot of people find compelling.

Penrose is a great addition because he is both a genius and he is not dogmatic.
He seems pretty dogmatic about his Orch-OR quantum consciousness theory, despite not being a neuroscientist.
Einstein, and many other highly notable physicists have held similarly controversial views
-in their own areas of expertise, which could be experimentally verified (or rejected) in the space of a few years.


*Albeit often untestable.
 
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