1. Sam

    Sam New Member

    I wrote to Saphon Energy in Tunisia about their "bladeless wind turbine".

    http://www.gizmag.com/saphonian-bladeless-wind-turbine/24890/

    The reply I received said:

    "Thank you for your interest in Saphon’s Technology. Our product is not yet available on the market.
    When the commercial stage will start, we will be happy to answer to your enquiries with more detailed information and discuss about business opportunities in USA."

    So, they don't seem to be looking for immediate investment capital.

    I don't know enough about the science to know if it is for real.

    Has anyone heard anything that might confirm or debunk bladeless wind turbines that are more efficient and cheaper?

    Sam
     
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    There's a patent here:
    http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/...688&recNum=25&docAn=TN2010000005&queryString=


    [​IMG]



    I can't immediately see how it is supposed to work. But it reminds me of a perpetual motion machine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Odd how the patent has "a wheel (F) equipped with a series of blades arranged all around it" yet this is not seen in the renderings, and it is described as "bladeless".
     
  4. Sam

    Sam New Member

    I just found this video which shows the "bladeless" wind turbine in action (at 3:10 mark in the video).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdcmShRcyfk
    The inventor also claims he gave up a lucrative banking sector job to become poor by developing this invention.
    Disclaimer: I have no financial interest and no links to the company. I'm skeptical. Although I have to admit the technology of wind sails is thousands of years old. This appears to be a new application that converts wind to kinetic energy using pistons powered by the back and forth motion of the sail (see video at 3:10 mark).
     
  5. Sam

    Sam New Member

    The gizmag article title uses the word "bladeless." (and I repeated it in the post title ... my bad)

    The actual patent application title says it is a "System for converting wind energy" and does not use the word "bladeless."
     
  6. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Saphon's web site though describes (and illustrates) it as "Zero-blade" with no rotation, so it seems clear that their idea is not exactly like the patent application. Presumably they feel that the wobbling disk part of the patent covers the present invention.

    http://www.saphonenergy.com/site/en/zero-blade-technology.15.html

    [​IMG]



    They explain they evolved away from the original design:

    http://www.saphonenergy.com/site/en/evolution-pace.60.html

    [​IMG]



    How does it work:


    [​IMG]

     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  7. smitchlovesfunk

    smitchlovesfunk New Member

    What really worries me about their claims is the diagram of the streamtube showing the upstream wind; it is completely wrong! The energy extracted from the wind comes from a streamtube that has a smaller area than the turbine's swept area, not larger! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz'_law
    How it is possible to "swallow" an area of wind larger than the area of the device I have no idea!!

    Having said that I don't want to rule out the chance of them being able to beat Betz, but this huge mistake in theory does not give me much hope.
     
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  8. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Yes that diagram is nonsensical - you can see how a larger density of the wind would hitting the surface, but not a larger cross-sectional area.

    The whole thing looks very dubious. How is it extracting energy? How does it not shake itself to bits after a few hours in a stiff breeze?
     
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  9. RSFNF

    RSFNF New Member

    Dear Mick, Dear friends, Dear All,

    SAPHONIAN DIED on 29th of April 2013!

    I am a Tunisian expert in the innovation field. The evaluation of any innovation is the [backbone of my] job. Evaluation on 3 aspects: Scientific/Technical, Industrial/Technological and Commercial is needed to achieve any transfer.
    The SAPHONIAN didn’t need all these effort to achieve a tragic conclusion: It’s a joke, a large scale joke!
    I use smooth words like Joke instead of scam or any other accusing adjective. It’s not my job.
    Some facts to the conclusion:
    - Mid-November, I was very happy in learning the scoop from my colleagues: Two young Tunisians invent a new system, called SAPHONIAN. This system converts the wind to electrical Energy with high performances, better than the classical wind system and lower price.
    - To better know about this ‘pearl’, I wrote to Saphon-Energy, asking for the SAPHONIAN performances. They welcomed my email and answered immediately in forwarding the booklet, available in their website.
    Same day and the booklet read, I sent to the innovators comments on technical and patenting aspects. I worked, amongst others, on helicopters and the rotor taught me a lot of things.
    - One week after, NO answer, NO thanks, Nothing at all!
    In my experience, I’d never seen such strange behavior. This was my first doubt about the seriousness of the SAPHONIAN.
    Then I forget the SAPHONIAN as I didn’t believe.
    - On April, I waked up with many blows on my head: SAPHONIAN awards, interests, and articles in newspapers and interviews: My god the SAPHONIAN goes again!
    - On the same day, I decided to look closer at the SAPHONIAN. 48 hours were enough to seal the future of this joke through an analysis of performances and making prototype.
    a. I studied the patent ‘drinking the ink and eating the paper’ to make a detailed analyses of SAPHONIAN performances : ZERO PERFORMANCE
    b. I built a pedagogical prototype of SAPHONIAN to better understand the mind of innovators: AMUSING MACHINE (would be an extraterrestrial hat!)
    CONCLUSION: It’s a joke, a large scale joke!
    - To be fair towards the innovators, I sent an email to them, hoping an immediate reaction from them. This is the conclusion included in my email sent to Saphon-Energy:
    1. The Saphonian has obvious malfunctions.
    2. The performances of SAPHONIAN, as EECS (Aeolian à Electric [wind powered electric generator]) are negligible near to zero.
    3. Saphonian is a classical wind system, handicapped with diminished capacities, and converts the wind to electricity through an unbelievable path.
    4. The Saphonian is a sailboat that opens its sailing but it forgets to pull up its anchor à it never sail!
    No reply, No sign, no curiosity to know about my analysis of performances and my prototype, nothing at all!
    Then to protect our (Tunisian) Institutions and our state VIPs, I informed them.

    To date and one month after, my email to the ‘innovators’ remains unanswered. So those who had received even micro sign from Saphon-Energy are macro lucky!

    Have a nice day,
    Best regards,
     
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  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Thanks RSFNF, that sounds about what I would expect. The design made no more sense to me than a perpetual motion machine, but I always like to keep an open mind.
     
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  11. Pete

    Pete Member

    I'm never sure why people spend so much time badly 'reinventing the wheel'...
     
  12. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    You can get useable energy from any motion, but simplicity is a hallmark of efficiency.
    Then there is whimsical intricacy:
    http://www.strandbeest.com/

     
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  13. Jazzy

    Jazzy Senior Member

    Might as well sling pulleys onto oak trees or something. It has been done before. I remember seeing it in a Whole Earth Catalog. It sorta works. A Tree House with braided stainless steel wires run to large branch tips could wind a whole load of generators back and forth, with rectification, etc., and charge up a mighty battery.
    Or do away with the rotary and merely pull samarium magnets through coils, etc., etc. If you want speed there are cheap pulley jacks in hardware stores which can be used the other way round.
     
  14. Saphon Energy

    Saphon Energy New Member

    Dear Mick,
    thank you for your intellectual curiosity and your open mind! we've been following your discussion since it started but we weren't in a position to interact properly as we've been extremely busy and focused in R&D. today, we're glad to share with you our news and views:
    - the Saphonian isn't "Dead" as proudly claimed one of the contributor (RSFNF)! the design has been substantially improved over the last 2 years moving from version 1 to version 5 and reaching its final industrial design.
    - after successful assessments and tests, Saphon Energy has recently entered in a strategic partnership with Microsoft Corporation to properly prepare and execute the industrial phase.
    - Saphon is currently under the spotlight of other global players to discuss various partnerships.
    - you can rest assured that the Saphonian is efficient, cost-effective and eco-friendly!

    With regards to the technology, a couple of clarification:
    - we aren't challenging Betz law. what we're saying is that betz limit is simply not applicable in our model since the paradigm and the assumptions are completely different.
    - the technology has radically evolved and new patents have been registered (not published yet).

    We found your skepticism healthy and normal. We didn't expect otherwise since the revolutionary kinematics supporting the Saphonian wasn't disclosed yet. soon, we will be making some announcements that will make many understand how we're changing the way we deal with wind!
    best regards,
    Saphon Energy team
     
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  15. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    And here's a more recent video you posted, version 4 of 5


    [​IMG]
    It has what resembles an inverted umbrella shape (replacing your earlier dish shape), facing the wind, and connected to some mechanical linkage that makes it follow a kind of rolling pattern. You then claim to have some secret way of converting this motion to energy in a super efficient manner.

    So forgive me if I remain skeptical. Perhaps you could detail the level of due diligence that Microsoft's 4Afrika did before they signed you up? What tests of your technology did they have performed?
     
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