How could the planes wings penetrate the WTC?

Jason

Senior Member
That is the inevitable result of momentum due to the airplane's forward velocity. As the mass of the fuel carried forward, along with all the debris shoved ahead. The suggestion that it "could only be" a "missile" is usually made by those who lack many basic understandings of physics, or (as I've tended to notice over the years) seem to think that what they see in popular action/adventure movies that come out of Hollywood represent reality, and actual physics.

(Referring to CT'ers on CT sites in general, here).
How would a missile create a plane-shaped hole?

There's no need to seek explanations for the hole beyond the obvious 500 mph tons of plane.
Ok, I probably didn't phrase the question the right way. In the photo we see a fireball before the plane enters the bldg. CT sites aren't solely saying it was a "missile" that created the hole, I've seen some say that it was a military plane that carried a missile on its flight to the WTC. Some of these sites have proposed that the plane fired a missile into the bldg before the plane entered the bldg. Their theory behind this stems from the aluminum in the plane not being strong enough to enter the steal columns.

I know a plane entered the bldg, and I'm not questioning that. I just wanted clarification on the fireball seen in the photo. Honestly, maybe its because the photo quality is poor, or what have you, but it looks like the fireball is there before the plane even touches the bldg. It could totally be a consequence of photo quality though.

Image again;
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
.
Ok, I probably didn't phrase the question the right way. In the photo we see a fireball before the plane enters the bldg. CT sites aren't solely saying it was a "missile" that created the hole, I've seen some say that it was a military plane that carried a missile on its flight to the WTC. Some of these sites have proposed that the plane fired a missile into the bldg before the plane entered the bldg. Their theory behind this stems from the aluminum in the plane not being strong enough to enter the steal columns.

I know a plane entered the bldg, and I'm not questioning that. I just wanted clarification on the fireball seen in the photo. Honestly, maybe its because the photo quality is poor, or what have you, but it looks like the fireball is there before the plane even touches the bldg. It could totally be a consequence of photo quality though.

Image again;
That image is so small and blurry, I take it that it is still from one of the videos shot that day? You can't tell where the front of the plane is exactly. Could just be sparks from the initial impact. Doesn't HAVE to be fuel exploding or a missile.

And if it is a missile :rolleyes: give it up to the pilot for great timing on firing it.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Ok, I probably didn't phrase the question the right way. In the photo we see a fireball before the plane enters the bldg.
Ah, now I understand. I have to admit, the term "fireball" is a new one to me, in describing that momentary flash seen when UAL 175 impacted. When I first looked at the image (and you agreed it is of poor quality) what is a poor resolution image of the airplane, I thought was debris being ejected on the exit side of the damage path.

OK...on the same page, now. This (very poor) image is of UAL 175. I recall quite a few discussions about freeze-frames of the intial contact as the nose began to enter. In that photo, I will suspect that the "explosion" has been doctored, enhanced a bit (or, could be due to reproduction errors, generation degradation in the image).

When higher-quality images are examined, the best hypothesis to explain the brief "flash" was the crew oxygen tank exploding as it was ruptured (another was merely a reflection of sunlight that the video camera's image sensors enhanced).



See the Crew O2 tank location?

EDIT: Zoomed in


And, for reference from exterior (old UAL paint scheme):
 
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Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Ah, now I understand. I have to admit, the term "fireball" is a new one to me. When I first looked at the image (and you agreed it is of poor quality) what is a poor resolution image of the airplane, I thought was debris being ejected on the exit side of the damage path.

OK...on the same page, now. This (very poor) image is of UAL 175. I recall quite a few discussions about freeze-frames of the intial contact as the nose began to enter. In that photo, I will suspect that the "explosion" has been doctored, enhanced a bit (or, could be due to reproduction errors, generation degradation in the image).

When higher-quality images are examined, the best hypothesis to explain the brief "flash" was the crew oxygen tank exploding as it was rubtured (another was merely a reflection of sunlight that the video camera's image sensors enhanced).



See the Crew O2 tank location?
Friction and steel create lots of sparks.

I have no clue if sparks would come off the aluminum though.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
Here's a clip supposedly from the original footage. It does show a red 'flash'.


...and a series of still from a conspiracy website.

missile.png

For comparison purposes, here's some YouTuber shooting an oxygen cylinder.

 
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Jazzy

Closed Account
Ok, I probably didn't phrase the question the right way. In the photo we see a fireball before the plane enters the bldg. CT sites aren't solely saying it was a "missile" that created the hole, I've seen some say that it was a military plane that carried a missile on its flight to the WTC. Some of these sites have proposed that the plane fired a missile into the bldg before the plane entered the bldg. Their theory behind this stems from the aluminum in the plane not being strong enough to enter the steal columns.

I know a plane entered the bldg, and I'm not questioning that. I just wanted clarification on the fireball seen in the photo. Honestly, maybe its because the photo quality is poor, or what have you, but it looks like the fireball is there before the plane even touches the bldg. It could totally be a consequence of photo quality though.

Image again;
It is a plasma of aluminum, followed by its combustion. You've seen it before in fireworks.

The fascia was coated in anodized aluminum decorative cladding. Some of the impact energy converted some of the aluminum fascia to a hot vapor/plasma which shone pinkish-white. It's a FLASH as viewed in bright sunlight. Had it happened at night it would have been quite distinctive. Only a few ounces of aluminum were required - it's quite an efficient process. When heated to such temperatures, aluminum burns in air.

The picture quality has reduced the ring of shining plasma/white hot alumina to what you see. The "ring" would be where the the fuselage section coincides with the tower external columns.

If that seems implausible then you need to research the strength of copper/aluminum alloy (almost that of mild steel) and the physical properties of aluminum.
 
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Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Here's a clip supposedly from the original footage. It does show a red 'flash'.


...and a series of still from a conspiracy website.

View attachment 6546
Does it seem like just as the plane is entering that some of the debris starts to get pushed/sucked into the building? Seems like it's just a flash because it all goes into the building. What would the air pressure inside the building do? Would it suck air in or push air out once a hole opened to the outside?
 

Jason

Senior Member
Here's a clip supposedly from the original footage. It does show a red 'flash'.


...and a series of still from a conspiracy website.

View attachment 6546

Some YouTuber shooting an oxygen cylinder.

So now I'm a bit confused, it does look as if the flash happens a split second before the plane hits the bldg. If that's the case then the most like explanation would be "reflection" right, since it was a sunny day, but where is the sun relative to this side of the WTC. I think knowing that could help us determine if it was the sun's reflection beaming off of the plane onto the windows of the tower
 

Jason

Senior Member
Does it seem like just as the plane is entering that some of the debris starts to get pushed/sucked into the building? Seems like it's just a flash because it all goes into the building. What would the air pressure inside the building do? Would it suck air in or push air out once a hole opened to the outside?
Is anyone able to determine if it happen upon impact, or a split second prior to impact. Would the plane be pushing air in front of it, that could've created a shockwave. Maybe the air in front of the plane hit the towers before the plane hit
 

Jason

Senior Member
It is a plasma of aluminum. You've seen it before in fireworks.

The fascia was coated in anodized aluminum decorative cladding. Some of the impact energy converted some of the aluminum fascia to a hot vapor/plasma which shone pinkish-white. It's a FLASH as viewed in bright sunlight. Had it happened at night it would have been quite distinctive. Only a few ounces of aluminum were required - it's quite an efficient process.

The picture quality has reduced the ring of shining plasma to what you see.
I think that could be very likely Jazzy, but after watching the video TriggerHappy provided it appears as if the flash happens moments before the plane hits the bldg. I think the video is much better than the frozen screen shot I provided..
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
I think that could be very likely Jazzy, but after watching the video TriggerHappy provided it appears as if the flash happens moments before the plane hits the bldg. I think the video is much better than the frozen screen shot I provided..
It happens on contact. The screen image of the nose has been "cropped" by the video image compression algorithm suggesting it occurs before contact - but that's an illusion.

A high-speed still camera image taken at the moment of impact would have been instructive. But that never happened AFAIK.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
It is a plasma of aluminum, followed by its combustion. You've seen it before in fireworks.
I ran the Speigel TV youtube video through an editor and did a screen cap at the time of impact. It shows a white flash.

vid_still1.png

So my question is: why do the pics from the conspiracy sites show a red flash? Is the difference due to post processing colour saturation settings?

vid_still2.jpg
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
It certainly looks that way. But aluminum burns pinkish-white, so there was red there to accentuate.
 

jaydeehess

Senior Member.
Looks like a bit of gerfingerpoken enhancement , aka, photoshop.

Yes it 'appears' that a flash occurs before contact.
I have seen several possibilities put forth. Jazzy mentions one, so does WeedWhacker. I have also seen postulated a static discharge, and destruction of weather radar klystron.
The most innocuous and probable explanation imho is sun reflection off the curved surface of the aircraft.

At any rate, a missle is most certainly not required to 'allow' the plane to penetrate. Pictures of what kamikaze aircraft did to solid plate battleship armour even when their explosive load failed to detonate points to the obvious, that a 100 ton aircraft at 500 mph will have little trouble penetrating a steel skyscraper
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
Is anyone able to determine if it happen upon impact, or a split second prior to impact.
There are many people that claim the flash occurs before the impact. I believe that can be explained be the nature of the video itself. If you run it frame by frame, you can see a lot of ghosting, where there is a faint image that looks like it's ahead of the actual plane.

For instance in this frame you can see two wings...

ghosting.png


in the next frame the plane "catches up" to the ghost image.

ghosting1.png
 

Jason

Senior Member
There are many people that claim the flash occurs before the impact. I believe that can be explained be the nature of the video itself. If you run it frame by frame, you can see a lot of ghosting, where there is a faint image that looks like it's ahead of the actual plane.

For instance in this frame you can see two wings...

View attachment 6549


in the next frame the plane "catches up" to the ghost image.

View attachment 6550
What causes that "ghosting" effect? Also based you the resolution you obtained with reference to the flash being white are you and Jazzy supposing the CT sites added in the red flash, like photo shopped it. And just to be clear you guys are chalking this up to the O2 tanks. From the video you supplied above it shows the white smoke after the bullet penetrates the O2 cylinder. Right. or is Jazzy's explanation about the aluminum (fireworks) also a consideration? Or is Jaydeehess's explanation also viable "
Sorry the "quote me" didn't work so I had to copy and paste. Thats been happening alot of late too, where I click on it and nothing happens. I realize thats OT, sorry
 
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Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
What causes that "ghosting" effect?
I don't know enough about digital cameras to answer that. Mick is more knowledgeable in this area. Alternately, I'm sure Google can provide an answer.

Also based you the resolution you obtained with reference to the flash being white are you and Jazzy supposing the CT sites added in the red flash, like photo shopped it.
It's something to consider, but I would never accuse anyone without more evidence.

And just to be clear you guys are chalking this up to the O2 tanks.
I'm not chalking it up to anything just yet. I'm only eliminating the missile theory.:)

I will say that I find it odd that only the cockpit created a flash as it hit the building, whereas the wings do not.
 
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jaydeehess

Senior Member.
Frame rate is 29.97 frames per second. That's 0.03336 seconds to cover the entire raster. In that time period the plane travels 24 feet (at 500 mph).
That could explain the ghosting if the difference between the two images is ~24 feet.

Its interpolation between I, P, B frames.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to describe RF reception.

As opposed to in-camera CCD recording of images and video.
I messed up, and copied the wrong part. I will delete it. The problem I get when searching this out, most of it deals with issues with HD, or "How to create a Ghost" for you horror film.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I don't know if this fireball below warrants an entire thread of its own, and I realize it could be deemed OT, but honestly it has to do with the plane and its wings entry into the WTC.
I've seen this photo pop up from time to time on the CT sites to promote the fact that a missile could've been fired from the plane in order to make it possible for the plane and its wings to enter the bldg because according to them the beams would've stopped the plane's lighter aluminum from entering. Has anyone explained what this "apparent" fireball is prior to the plane hitting the bldg. Is it a reflection off of the glass or what? The picture is of poor quality and I can't figure it out.
I suspect a laser beam from a cloaked Death Star in low Earth orbit. Yeah.... THAT'S IT! Why not? Prove me wrong.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
As I said, if it was a missile...
Yeah, and of course the CT "thinking" doesn't even begin to address just where and how such an imaginary "missile" would be installed on a Boeing 767-200. I'm rather intimately familiar with the airplane, after all, and the suggestion is simply ludicrous.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Yeah, and of course the CT "thinking" doesn't even begin to address just where and how such an imaginary "missile" would be installed on a Boeing 767-200. I'm rather intimately familiar with the airplane, after all, and the suggestion is simply ludicrous.
Actually Weedwhacker, if I'm not mistaken the CT's claim the missile was attached to the fuselage. They claim there is a bulge there that didn't belong but I'm having a hard time finding a photo of the claim. I know its BS, just thought I would share
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Actually Weedwhacker, if I'm not mistaken the CT's claim the missile was attached to the fuselage. They claim there is a bulge there that didn't belong but I'm having a hard time finding a photo of the claim. I know its BS, just thought I would share
That's even more [..] How is there enough time for the explosion to create a hole if it's attached to the front of the plane? o_O
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Actually Weedwhacker, if I'm not mistaken the CT's claim the missile was attached to the fuselage. They claim there is a bulge there that didn't belong but I'm having a hard time finding a photo of the claim. I know its BS, just thought I would share
Just what we like to do here.... share BS. :rolleyes:
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Actually Weedwhacker, if I'm not mistaken the CT's claim the missile was attached to the fuselage. They claim there is a bulge there that didn't belong but I'm having a hard time finding a photo of the claim. I know its BS, just thought I would share
When I was a kid I used to imagine that a small plane with a sharp nose had to go ahead of a larger plane to "cut the air" for the larger plane. Then I grew up.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
the CT's claim the missile was attached to the fuselage. They claim there is a bulge there that didn't belong but I'm having a hard time finding a photo of the claim.
Most of these claims involve stills from the Fairbanks video. Claims of "pipes to the tail", pods of some sort, and tubes protruding from the front of the aircraft. All of it based on, and supported by, extremely grainy images... of course.

tower2-fairbanks.gif

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/ar/t3513.htm
 
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