George Floyd Protests and Related Riots, Looting, and other Unrest

[Dingo]

Ah ok. If it helps, I'm not in the US, I'm Australian, but as I said familiar with Grossman.
I'm not sure what you've read/heard, perhaps my interpretation of his work is a bit different. I've certainly heard his sheepdog metaphor - to me, it's just his way of encouraging an honourable mindset and acting as a "protector". I've not considered what he's said about police vs populace as a separate "class" so much as a calling to protect those around you who can't protect themselves. YMMV




Yep. There's plenty of that. Happens in most jobs, but obviously not what you want in a police force.
It needs a mix of old/new to make it relevant.



No probs at all.

Ah! That makes MUCH more sense now. I'm Australian too, ORS. (Queenslander, if you're curious)

I had assumed that you were an American, my mistake.

For what it's worth every interaction I've had with police here has been positive. I'm certainly not saying that there are no issues with our police and never have been, but I feel that on the whole our situation is a -lot- better than overseas.

Another question for you out of curiousity for my pet theory with regards to police - how common has it been for you to run across people armed with guns during your service?

One thing that I feel contributes strongly to US police jumping strongly to a 'shoot first ask questions later' policy is the extreme prevalence of firearms over there. Literally anyone could be armed at any time. (One of the most extreme disconnects I had while visiting was seeing a sign reminding patrons -not- to bring a concealed handgun to Olive Garden. I've never remotely considered a Glock essential for a family dinner!)

Whereas here, of course, outside of rural communities where you're going to have a lot of firearms present, I imagine that it's not really a concern outside of specific areas that are heavy with gang violence (e.g. the crappier parts of sydney). Like it's always a possibility, but a more remote one.

As I said previously you're going to be frequently dealing with people having the worst day of their life. I'd think that you're going to be worried about people taking a swing at you, or maybe pulling a knife. But I imagine that the knowledge that 'he's over there, and he probably can't do much to hurt me unless I get close' changes the attitude a bit and changes how you escalate use of force.

 

[occams rusty scissor]

For what it's worth every interaction I've had with police here has been positive. I'm certainly not saying that there are no issues with our police and never have been, but I feel that on the whole our situation is a -lot- better than overseas.

I'm glad to hear that, things are certainly different here on the political side of things. I've been lucky enough to meet and work with police from several parts of the world - they all have a similar viewpoint that it's essentially the same job just different accents (and threat levels).

One thing that I feel contributes strongly to US police jumping strongly to a 'shoot first ask questions later' policy is the extreme prevalence of firearms over there. Literally anyone could be armed at any time.

The gun laws are definitely a game changer for US cops and a good reason for them to be cautious in certain situations.

Another question for you out of curiousity for my pet theory with regards to police - how common has it been for you to run across people armed with guns during your service?

Not that common, a handful of times at random, but we often get Intel about our organised gangs holding firearms and lots of actions for high risk searches and such.knives/other weapons etc quite frequently.

Whereas here, of course, outside of rural communities where you're going to have a lot of firearms present, I imagine that it's not really a concern outside of specific areas that are heavy with gang violence (e.g. the crappier parts of sydney). Like it's always a possibility, but a more remote one.

It's a bit higher than you'd like to think. There are a lot of guns in and around urban areas, and a lot of legally owned guns getting stolen that wind up on the wrong side. There are less guns used to commit crime than are possessed illegally, though.

But I imagine that the knowledge that 'he's over there, and he probably can't do much to hurt me unless I get close' changes the attitude a bit and changes how you escalate use of force.

For the most part, yes, but normal conversation distance is usually where it goes bad. Heard of the '21 foot rule'? The idea is that in order to be able to draw and fire accurately on an offender charging you with a knife, you need about 21 feet to accomplish this. In reality, most confrontations with knives happen well under this distance and for a number of reasons, so it's really not that much more comforting. Our use of force policies are similar to those in UK and US regarding escalation, obvious difference being the UK officers are not armed.

 

[deirdre]

'm certainly not saying that there are no issues with our police and never have been, but I feel that on the whole our situation is a -lot- better than overseas.

not according to the news. your numbers are worse than ours.

Australia's indigenous population -- composed of mainland Aboriginal people and Torres Strait Islanders -- makes up 2.4% of the country's 25 million people, yet accounts for more than a quarter of its total prisoner population.
Analysis from Change the Record, an Aboriginal-led justice coalition, found that there have been 449 indigenous deaths in custody between 1980 and 2011, which represents 24% of all deaths in custody over that period.
"There's so many modern parallels with what's going on in Australia and the United States," Sudanese-Australian activist and author Yassmin Abdel-Magied previously told CNN. "It's the same institutionalized racism, it's the same black deaths in custody and police getting away with it with impunity."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/australia/australia-black-lives-matter-protests-intl-hnk/index.html


This of course, does not mean that Occam is evil scum. I imagine, that just like in America, the majority of your country's police are good, decent people who should be praised for the integrity, patience and bravery they bring to the job of protecting us. including from other officers.

note: even 10% is way too many! and review boards/local laws/unions need to get their act together. But i fear the current climate just makes police (rightfully) more fearful and on edge. and encourages the public to resist more. a combination which can't help 'use-of-force' problems.

Early warning systems are procedures designed to identify and address issues of problem officers, as around 10% of officers are theorized to cause 90% of the problems. Early warning systems were recommended by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights in 1981, and by 1999 an estimated 27% of police agencies serving populations of over 50,000 people had implemented these programs. The systems collect data such as complaints, which triggers an intervention at a certain point. After the intervention, the officer is monitored as a follow-up.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_misconduct#cite_note-5

At least 85,000 law enforcement officers across the USA have been investigated or disciplined for misconduct over the past decade, an investigation by USA TODAY Network found.
...
Among the findings:

• Most misconduct involves routine infractions, but the records reveal tens of thousands of cases of serious misconduct and abuse. They include 22,924 investigations of officers using excessive force, 3,145 allegations of rape, child molestation and other sexual misconduct and 2,307 cases of domestic violence by officers.
• Dishonesty is a frequent problem. The records document at least 2,227 instances of perjury, tampering with evidence or witnesses or falsifying reports. There were 418 reports of officers obstructing investigations, most often when they or someone they knew were targets.
• Less than 10% of officers in most police forces get investigated for misconduct.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...ng-misconduct-records-police-cops/3223984002/

 

[qed]

Australia hasn't even begun to deal with it's genocide and racism. As a South African, I can say this.

 

[deirdre]

Late Tuesday in Madison, Democratic state Sen. Tim Carpenter was assaulted after taking a photo of protesters, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported.

"I don't know what happened ... all I did was stop and take a picture ... and the next thing I'm getting five-six punches, getting kicked in the head," Carpenter told a reporter for the newspaper.
Statues of Wisconsin's motto "Forward" and of Col. Hans Christian Heg were dragged away from the statehouse. The statue of Heg, an anti-slavery activist who fought and died for the Union during the U.S. Civil War, was decapitated and thrown into a Madison lake by protesters, the newspaper said.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/crowds-tear-down-statues-madison-wisconsin_n_5ef33c36c5b601e59956eee4

 

[occams rusty scissor]

Australia hasn't even begun to deal with it's genocide and racism. As a South African, I can say this.

Fair bit off topic, but would you care to elaborate? Or just throwing opinion in?

 

[occams rusty scissor]

Analysis from Change the Record, an Aboriginal-led justice coalition, found that there have been 449 indigenous deaths in custody between 1980 and 2011, which represents 24% of all deaths in custody over that period.
"There's so many modern parallels with what's going on in Australia and the United States," Sudanese-Australian activist and author Yassmin Abdel-Magied previously told CNN. "It's the same institutionalized racism, it's the same black deaths in custody and police getting away with it with impunity."

Deaths in custody does not equal institutionalized racism. Those stats are skewed by the term "death in custody", which implies that the person(s) may have died while during a custodial sentence, or during a "police related operation" or even whilst in a hospital/ nursing home, depending on the circumstances involved. Some of these include thieves in a stolen car, involved in a chase with police, chase is called off, but 30 minutes later are killed in a car crash - death in custody x 2.

Further to that, the majority of those deaths are due to poor health and accidents, followed by suicides and have little to do with Police who don't guard them in prison. There's a study by the Institute of criminology which points out that Aboriginals are statistically slightly less likely to die while in custody than non-aboriginals, I'll try find it when I have more time.

There is no doubt racism exists here, like anywhere else. But to say that it's institutionalized based on those stats is in error ( Also, that's a quote from Yasmin who likes to call everything she doesn't agree with racist). I'm interested as to how she backs up her claims regarding police impunity for deaths in custody.

Like anything race-related this is highly politicized. To focus on black deaths in custody takes the attention away from the very real issues faced by our Aboriginal population which ARE linked to our poor treatment of them in the past. For some reason, it's much easier to just blame police/courts though.

 

[qed]

Fair bit off topic, but would you care to elaborate? Or just throwing opinion in?

I assume you acknowledge the genocide and past institutional racism (White Australia Policy), and are simply objecting to my assertion that Australia is way behind in the war against racism?

In terms of racism, of the European colonies and colonial master countries, can you think of a worse place to currently be a "native"/brown-person than Australia? Britain? France? South Africa? New Zealand? America? Canada? Germany? I think Australia is the worst overall (which is why we White South Africans "packed for Perth" in 1994, and Australia welcomed us).

There is a significant imbalance in the parliamentary representation of Indigenous and non-Indigenous people in Australia.

https://www.aph.gov.au/about_parlia...s/parliamentary_library/pubs/rp/rp0809/09rp23

At present the number of Aborigines in State and Territory Police Forces is very low

https://www.alrc.gov.au/publication...nd-the-police/aborigines-in-the-police-force/

In 2008, the Australian government made a formal commitment to address Indigenous disadvantage in Australia, known as 'Closing the Gap', but what's "the gap"?
The gap refers to the the vast health and life-expectation inequality between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians. This inequality includes:

• shorter life expectancy
• higher rates of infant mortality
• poorer health
• and lower levels of education and employment

The Closing the Gap strategy has resulted in some improvements, but national statistics indicate there's still a long way to go. In 2017, the government came under pressure to add a target to lower Indigenous imprisonment rates. Other areas where statistics show a concerning gap in the experience between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians are child removals and community and family violence.

https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/the-wound/indigenous-disadvantage-in-australia/

Police in New South Wales pursue more than 80% of Indigenous people found with small amounts of cannabis through the courts while letting others off with warnings, forcing young Aboriginal people into a criminal justice system that legal experts say "they will potentially never get out of".
The Guardian can reveal that between 2013 and 2017 the police disproportionately used the justice system to prosecute Indigenous people, despite the existence of a specific cautioning scheme introduced to keep minor drug offences out of the courts.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/10/nsw-police-pursue-80-of-indigenous-people-caught-with-cannabis-through-courts

Our new research analysing 45 years of print media reporting of Aboriginal initiatives for self-determination has found that media have systematically and substantially failed – if not undermined and denied – Aboriginal aspirations for self-determination and for enduring political settlements.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/16/how-the-media-fails-aboriginal-aspirations

I think Australia is way behind. And be careful with a glib answer, you are looking for a country where a person really feels being an Australian aborigine is a move up away from the experience of racism.

I think, in terms of racism, Britain, France, South Africa, New Zealand, America, Canada and Germany are all better places to be a "native" than Australia. Of course racism and its effects are still prevalent in all of these other countries, but Australia is the worst.

You disagree?

 

[occams rusty scissor]

I assume you acknowledge the genocide and past institutional racism (White Australia Policy), and are simply objecting to my assertion that Australia is way behind in the war against racism?

You can assume whatever you like, it looks like you already have.

Like many countries, Australia has a bad past with the indigenous population here. White Australia policy was an obvious example. I didn't say otherwise.

I only wondered why you'd post a one liner about your opinion and expect it just to be accepted as anything but?

I won't be signing up to The Guardian for the sake of reading a quote.

In terms of racism, of the European colonies and colonial master countries, can you think of a worse place to currently be a "native"/brown-person than Australia

...tell me again about South Africa?

At present the number of Aborigines in State and Territory Police Forces is very low

Tell that to the entire units of Aboriginal people in my force who are put in their position specifically to deal with Aboriginal families. The officers in those units are often subjected to racism from within their own community for "changing sides".

I think Australia is way behind

Ok, so it is just your opinion then. I don't think I need to get involved in derailing the thread with a meaningless "your country is more racist than mine" argument.

 

[qed]

@deirdre and @Dingo started the Australia is more racist discussion, not me.

not according to the news. your numbers are worse than ours.

At present the number of Aborigines in State and Territory Police Forces is very low

Tell that to the entire units of Aboriginal people in my force who are put in their position specifically to deal with Aboriginal families. The officers in those units are often subjected to racism from within their own community for "changing sides".

You don't see the racism in your statement?

...tell me again about South Africa?

What would you like to know?

 

[Agent K]

Correction to the June 21 NPR.org story, "Vehicle Attacks Rise As Extremists Target Protesters." Shows how editors get things 180 degrees backwards sometimes.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/21/880963592/vehicle-attacks-rise-as-extremists-target-protesters
Editor's note: A previous version of this story included a photo of a protester being struck by a car in Louisville, Kentucky. The photo, chosen by editors, does not appear to be an example of the assaults described in the story, and has been replaced. Police have not charged the driver, but have charged two of the protesters involved in that incident. Authorities continue to investigate.

 

[Mendel]

Source: https://twitter.com/eliseschmelzer/status/1303354576750346241

A new program in Denver that sends a paramedic+a mental health expert to 911 calls instead of police launched amid calls for alternatives to policing. So far, the van has taken more than 350 calls without once having to call in police backup.