Debunked: Bruce Lipton and The Biology of Belief

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Joe Newman

Active Member
"All in your head" means that it's entirely a delusion, an illusion, or a hallucination. If something is all in your head, then there's no component of it in the real world.

But it's a very informal term. Best to say exactly what you mean instead.

I get your defs in other domains like the delusion of flat earthers, or the illusion of a stage magician, or a hallucination of whatever variety. I just don't get the use of the term within the context of physical symptoms or conditions or disease. What does it mean in this specific context?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I get your defs in other domains like the delusion of flat earthers, or the illusion of a stage magician, or a hallucination of whatever variety. I just don't get the use of the term within the context of physical symptoms or conditions or disease. What does it mean in this specific context?

It means you are imagining the symptoms. There is no physical difference outside your brain. Like if you thought your leg was broken, but it was not.

Generally though, as Pete notes, the brain will influence the body. This can produce psychosomatic signs.

It's not a formal term though, so why are you asking for a definition? When Dan used the term he was talking about a subset of the people who claim to have Morgellons. Some of them have delusions of infestation when there is no infestation. That portion is "all in their head". That does not mean they don't have other symptoms that are not.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
What's in your head influences the stress chemicals in the body which can have a toxic effect over time (I'm totally guessing this is the case - it 'sounds' right' but I don't know what research there is to that effect.).

Edit.. here's some...
http://www.askdepkewellness.com/2011/02/toxic-effects-of-high-cortisol.html

There is a great deal Pete. You are talking about Psychoneuroimmunology and specifically the PNI Paradigm. That is the systems within the paradigm can have an effect on the others connected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
It means you are imagining the symptoms. There is no physical difference outside your brain. Like if you thought your leg was broken, but it was not.

I'd file imagining symptoms that aren't there under delusion. Is it possible to imagine symptoms that are actually there, i.e. empirically valid to someone besides the person imagining them?

Generally though, as Pete notes, the brain will influence the body. This can produce psychosomatic signs.

Given that the brain is part of the body and the command center for running the whole show, that it "influences" the body goes without saying. That's why I don't understand the "psychosomatic" part. Wikied the term and saw this, "Psychiatry has found it difficult until relatively recently to distinguish somatoform disorders, disorders in which mental factors are the sole cause of a physical illness, from psychosomatic disorders, disorders in which mental factors play a significant role in the development, expression, or resolution of a physical illness."

It's the part about "mental factors" that are the sole factor in physical illness or play a significant part in the expression or resolution of physical illness part that I don't get. It seems like an unnecessary or meaningless distinction. The brain is part of the body, so why does it causing or contributing to the cause of physical illness make anything it does somehow different from any other physical cause?

It's not a formal term though, so why are you asking for a definition? When Dan used the term he was talking about a subset of the people who claim to have Morgellons. Some of them have delusions of infestation when there is no infestation. That portion is "all in their head". That does not mean they don't have other symptoms that are not.

I am in now way qualified to opine on Morgellons, so I won't. I was speaking in general and that just happened to be a part of the quote.
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
What's in your head influences the stress chemicals in the body which can have a toxic effect over time (I'm totally guessing this is the case - it 'sounds' right' but I don't know what research there is to that effect.)

What's in my head is chemical reactions which catalyze or are catalyzed by other chemical reactions which can have a toxic effect. Ok. So "it's all in your head" is just another way to say chemicals do shit to and with other chemicals? That's seems painfully obvious, so I'm clearly missing something here. What is it that makes any of this stand out for special distinction?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I don't know, my 'what's in your head' is slightly different in context to the 'it's all in your head' referenced before, which was about people who imagine conditions they don't have. My point was just an obseravation that emotional outlook will lead to effects in the body. I don't equate this with creating actual severe medical conditions though.
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
I don't know, my 'what's in your head' is slightly different in context to the 'it's all in your head' referenced before, which was about people who imagine conditions they don't have. My point was just an obseravation that emotional outlook will lead to effects in the body. I don't equate this with creating actual severe medical conditions though.

Emotions are chemical so chemicals affect chemicals is all you are saying at bottom. Like I said, I have to be missing something because this is all too obvious as it stands.
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
It's the part about "mental factors" that are the sole factor in physical illness or play a significant part in the expression or resolution of physical illness part that I don't get. It seems like an unnecessary or meaningless distinction. The brain is part of the body, so why does it causing or contributing to the cause of physical illness make anything it does somehow different from any other physical cause?

Well, you're kind of right about the "meaningless distinction" part. Pete said a little bit ago that the mind is matter, which makes mind over matter an outdated thing to say. This is obvious, so you're not necessarily missing anything by being confused. The distinction in psychosomatic illness, mental illness, and other illness lies in the source of the flaw.
Psychosomatic illness starts in the brain and influences the rest of the body via the chemicals synthesized in the brain, the signals they send out, or indirectly. An example of indirect might be a depressed patient who gains a lot of weight and develops health problems while a more direct example might be someone under too much stress. Mental illnesses are generally considered to be confined to the brain and some can be traced to a genetic or structural component but the origins are not clear for all of them, but they can usually be treated or helped by drugs that target the brain or by therapy sessions. Other illnesses are generally caused by genetic mutations that don't specifically target the brain or pathogens. Does this help?
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
I don't believe that to be entirely true, but don't ask me to be more specific about it - it's not my field at all. I believe that lack of emotional and psychological well-being can make any one of us susceptible to cancer or any other disease. I believe the human body is as complex as a city, maybe as the cosmos. But it's not my field, of course, and it's only my belief. Are you sure about that? Why?

I wouldn't say I'm sure as I do think there is room for discovery, but as far as the evidence goes, I don't see any for it. Cancer starts with a genetic mutation that goes un-repaired. The only way psychological trauma or stress could directly lead to cancer is if a chemical or reaction associated with it takes place that can damage to DNA. Psychological trauma or stress could indirectly contribute to cancer if lifestyle changes are made to cope with the emotions (diet change, smoking, etc.), but I haven't seen any evidence that it can be direct cause. The main sources I find making such claims are those from Lipton and a Dr. Ryke Geerd Hamer, who claims that he can find evidence of psychological trauma having physical effects in the brain using CT scans, which he claims is indicative of cancer. He doesn't present any real data in his paper describing his hypothesis and he promotes weird claims such as the idea that cancer can't actually metastasize. The medical community hasn't responded well to his claims either.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/10/27/your-friday-dose-of-woo-the-iron-rule/
http://anaximperator.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/debunkinghamer-on-cancermetastasis-slam-dunk/

So even though stress certainly doesn't help ill patients or healthy individuals, when it comes to a causal link between cancer and mental states, there doesn't seem to be one.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
What's in my head is chemical reactions which catalyze or are catalyzed by other chemical reactions which can have a toxic effect. Ok. So "it's all in your head" is just another way to say chemicals do shit to and with other chemicals? That's seems painfully obvious, so I'm clearly missing something here. What is it that makes any of this stand out for special distinction?

Let's say you have tingling in your fingers. The distinction might be:

A) You are imagining it, because of stress. It's all in your head.
B) You have peripheral neuropathy, because of diabetes. Your nerves are dying, and if untreated you will lose your fingers.

So here determining if it's all in your head or not is a very important distinction.
 

Trekkiegirl

New Member
Medicine is medicine, if a healing method genuinely works then that is good medicine, be it Eastern, Western, or from a concoction of lizard blood and rat teeth.

Well now that's one of the most refreshing things I've heard in a long time!!! Personally though, I'm not convinced about the concoction of lizard blood and rat teeth...:p

When I said that doctors sometimes tell a patient it's "all in their head" I'm talking about the symptoms. This can be very distressing for someone who feels very unwell. It might well turn out to be the case that the symptoms being experienced have an emotional or psychological cause, but if the doctor believes this is the case, instead of simply dismissing the patient's symptoms doesn't it really warrant a referral to counselling/psychotherapy etc? As I mentioned before, the types of cases I'm referring to include Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/MS, Fibromyalgia, Irritable Bowel Syndrome and - oddly- things like lower back pain which haven't been found to have a pathological cause. Patients with these types of conditions are often written off by medical doctors as their conventional treatments often don't bring much relief (and sometimes make the patient feel worse). This sometimes leads to the patient feeling like they're (a) going mad, since they're experiencing symptoms physically and just want relief from them (b) not worth the doctor's time (and doctors are pushed for time anyway, especially in general practice) and (c) desperate and willing to try anything which might bring relief. I would love to think that this isn't representative of the medical community, but unfortunately my own experiences suggest that it is...
 
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Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
I'm referring to include Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/MS, Fibromyalgia, Irritable Bowel Syndrome and - oddly- things like lower back pain which haven't been found to have a pathological cause.

Were these people you are talking about later diagnosed after being ignored by other doctors?

Chronic fatigue syndrome and irritable bowel syndrome can be influenced by stress, but they certainly can have pathological and physical causes. Fibromyalgia is sometimes difficult to diagnose but there is good evidence that it can be linked to physical signs and influenced by stress. Just to clarify, MS as in multiple sclerosis? I'd be shocked if a doctor told a patient with signs & symptoms of MS that it is simply all in their head. Even if the diagnostic scan results were negative, "It's all in your head" does not logically follow that conclusion, as it could be something else. However, if all of the logically prescribed tests show no abnormalities, I could see how a doctor might say that; even though that would still be cheating the patient out of proper advice.
But I don't know what exactly happened in these situations. Let's not forget that some people really are anxious about their health and let insignificant symptoms scare the hell out of them. The best a doctor can do is use their best judgement and run the tests for the most likely/most serious illness it could be and tell the patient what it might be, what it is, or what it isn't and give them the best treatment/advice they can. Not all doctors are good ones, but the overall improvement of human health lends credence to the medical community as a whole.
 

Trekkiegirl

New Member
Sorry, my typo - I meant ME, not MS!!! These were people who were diagnosed with Fibro, CFS etc but then the conventional medicines or treatment programmes that they were given didn't help much or made them feel worse. This was the point at which they felt their doctors had pretty much washed their hands of them. I have IBS myself actually, and I was told there is never a pathological cause for it, as it's a functional condition. I have absolute respect for the medical community as a whole as they're generally skilled and dedicated people who are very good at what they do, (and I'm very lucky as I have a fab GP here, who's never washed his hands of me!), but it does sometimes seem as though it's drummed into them at medical school that people are simply biomechanical machines that need fixing every now and again. We are more than that. When the medical community are able to accept that sometimes simply making the patient feel better (which is what complementary medicine does) is equally as important as curing them (which is what conventional medicine does), then we will have truly integrated medicine and a healthier population. Currently, complementary medical practitioners are either completely ignored or labelled as 'quacks', 'charlatans', 'rip-off merchants' etc - believe me, I've heard them all and more! It doesn't seem to matter that my clients go away feeling better!!!
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Ohh okay, ME makes much more sense. :D
It's unfortunate that those people couldn't be helped by their doctor. Ideally, a doctor would search for other solutions if the first treatment didn't work. IBS does have a lot of components, but there is some evidence that it is exacerbated by an unknown or unidentified pathogen or pathogens.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/779872

There certainly is nothing wrong with employing a treatment that makes you feel good, but I do think that the kind of complementary medicine and how it is used matters. The biggest problem are the people who decide to get the complementary medicine in place of the core treatment, in which case it becomes alternative medicine. This has lead to many unnecessary deaths and bankrupt families because there are quacks and rip-off merchants who (whether they believe their own treatment works or not) give people false hope in exchange for large sums of cash. However, it would be just as much of a blanket statement to say that this describes every complementary/alternative medicine practitioner as it would be to say that every doctor doesn't care very much about their patients. Complementary medicine can be a very good thing, I have my own physical hobbies that just generally make me feel better. Alternative medicine is shakier ground but it's not bad in every situation, some of them can actually work, I'd just never recommend it in cases of serious illness. Like most things, people just have to make well-informed choices. The NIH formed the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) to help do just that.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam

It's also important for people to feel better after they survive an illness, and complementary medicine can be very helpful for that. For example, cancer survivors are sometimes so deeply effected by their brush with such a deadly illness that they suffer some form of depression. Things like yoga, physical therapists, and counseling can really help with that.
 

Trekkiegirl

New Member
Definitely, I totally agree with all of that. Although I'm a complementary therapist (specialising in massage therapy) I've never been a fan of alternative medicine. You've got to be off your trolley not to try the tried and tested conventional medicines first - that's why I'm passionate about integrated medicine, where complementary treatments work side by side with conventional ones in order to make the patient feel better. It's just such a shame that, although there are some conventional doctors who embrace that and can see its benefits, there's still a core majority of doctors who cannot give up their reductionist view that their scientific method is the only way to make a difference to a patient, and anyone else is a quack or a charlatan. When the patient comes away from a complementary treatment feeling much better, that seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water - there should be more research into what aspects of complementary treatments are working to make a difference to the patient and why. I agree there certainly are quacks and charlatans out there, generally the ones who are claiming they can 'cure' (in place of conventional medicine), but as you rightly pointed out these are alternative practitioners, not complementary ones, and it often appears that we are thrown into the same basket. :(
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
It is unfortunate both that alternative and complementary medicines are sometimes placed in the same category and that some doctors actively oppose them. In my experience, if a patient is suffering from anxiety or depression, medication is prescribed and a therapy or counseling session is recommended, so it doesn't make sense that doctors would oppose other complementary treatments. Especially since complementary treatments probably won't make the patient feel worse. I'm making an assumption in saying that this opposition is a minority but I hope it never becomes a majority. I'm passionate about people making informed decisions and integrated medicine seems to be a pretty good choice.
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Just to add to the idea of being careful about which alternative or supplemental medical treatments should be suggested, here is an example of one that is extremely unsafe.

http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/5/197/197ra101
Aristolochic acid (AA), a natural product of Aristolochia plants found in herbal remedies and health supplements, is a group 1 carcinogen that can cause nephrotoxicity and upper urinary tract urothelial cell carcinoma (UTUC).
Our study highlights an unusual genome-wide AA mutational signature and the potential use of mutation signatures as “molecular fingerprints” for interrogating high-throughput cancer genome data to infer previous carcinogen exposures.

Natural dietary supplements as a cure for common ailments is an idea that is presnted and often accepted by a lot of people, and this particular practice is further enforced through tradition in some parts of Asia. However, natural remedies are not always safe and this is why drugs and treatments need to go through clinical trials. This study describes carcinogenic fingerprints specific to users of this plant supplement that show its effects to be potentially more damaging than cigarette smoke. Something I'd like to point out is that these aren't necessarily charlatans or scam-artists who sell this plant as a treatment, the practice is part of a culture. Many people believe that it will help them but it makes no difference in the fact that it is actually hugely promoting their risk of cancer.
 

Ethnical

Banned
Banned
Yes your attitude is very important for that reason. Certain experiences trigger certain chemicals to be produced int he body. Lipton has a point in saying that we can change our perception on certain things to help us keep a positive outlook and if he just stuck with that and didn't throw in all of this nonsense about DNA, curing serious illness, and how evolution happens I think he would be a lot more respected.

Yes it does. Misdiagnosis is something that you know happens. And a percentage of cancer cases experience spontaneous remission. We don't know why exactly, but that's not reason to start believing it's because people rewire their DNA with their brains.
This comment is really amazing, an excuse used by the traditional doctors of alopathic medicine to cover up the misuse of chemicals and their ignorance about nutrition, the power of the mind and the emotions and quantum physics. The business behind cáncer is an insult, the way these "doctors" use language to comunícate is one of the worst forms of the nocebo effect available. The Word diagnostic is a sentence and is been documented over and over that is one of the worst ways to approach any physical problem. And the worst thing about all your comments related to Bruce Lipton is that you try to make him look like a shaman or a healer when in reality he is a scientist and a great teacher. You mentioned the book Spontaneous Evolution but did you read The Biology Of Belief? If you did you cannot label his DNA theory as "nonsense". What nonsense? is the first time that someone explains in plain english what an spontaneous remission is and how it happens. And these remissions happen all the time, specialy on people that refuse to use chemicals and drugs for their recovery understanding that the disease is not the problem but the result of a way of life that doesn't support well being, based on competition, greed, fear, bad nutrition and a constant state of stress that takes all the energy from every cell in our body. Maybe you prefer the explanation from doctors labeling an spontaneous remission as a "miracle". Yes, that really sounds more scientific and logical than Dr Liptons explanation. A disease is an advise and alopathic medicine keeps telling us that we must use drugs to kill it like it is an alien that just happens to invade our body. By now this should be consider the most ignorant way to approach any disease, this is the real snake-oil because is a big lie and is a cover up from the big pharma corporations to keep selling the very expensive snake oil they sell. I'm tired of seing cáncer patients dying from the drugs they have taken and then reading the reports from their doctors saying that the cáncer was cured but the patient died from pneumonia, or heart attack, or a fungus in the lungs, or liver failure, etc. It is like approaching a house full of rats by burning the house and saying that there are no more rats. But there is no more house either! Unbelievable! Maybe you and Mick West, the moderator of this blog, are sponsored by a big pharma corp which would be the only way to explain the insanity written on the openning remarks of this blog and the disrespectful way you both talk about Dr Lipton. At least his "Snake-Oil is cheaper and has no side effects, that's a big step forward in medicine. And, by the way, please stop saying the phrase "incurable disease" because that really shows, more tan anything else you had posted on this blog, how ignorant you are.
 

Ethnical

Banned
Banned
I think people might be confusing the gist of what Lipton is saying. In the 1 1/2 hour lecture I just listened to, he never claimed that we could change our DNA, but rather that the amino acid chains that make up the backbone of proteins receive signals from the quantum field. He goes on to explain that by changing the quantum field we can actually affect how the proteins bind and interrelate to other proteins affecting the systems in the body.
The field effects of quantum physics and in particular the widely accepted notion of entanglement should make one pause and reconsider the materialist, Newtonian view of our Universe. Specifically in regards to health, well-being, and medicine, the Western approach of better living through chemistry has been shown to be lacking in many instances. We now know that the Universe is not made up of matter as we once thought. Indeed, it is made up of energy that expresses itself in the form of fields and vibrations. This is not “woo woo” science. This is cutting edge, quantum mechanics. If this is so, why do medical schools in the Western world that teach “real medicine” as you say, still teach the Newtonian, materialist view that organic chemistry is the best platform to explain the body’s functions even though, according to the latest research, quantum field theory explains the movement of molecules or mechanical turnstiles in a way that Newtonian, organic chemistry has been unable to do? (see reference below)
"The scientific journal Nature published a paper by Pophristic and Goodman where they show how they could not predict the movement of a molecule using Newtonian physics. They had to look at the movement in regard to quantum physics before they were able to predict its movement.
A review by physical chemist Frank Weinhold, published along with this paper, said “The most pressing question raised by Pophristic and Goodman is: when will chemistry textbooks begin to serve as aids, rather than barriers, to this enriched quantum-mechanical perspective on how mechanical turnstiles work.”

That’s not to say that Western medicine in general and pharmaceuticals in particular haven’t contributed to the over-all health and well-being of our society in specific instances. But even discoveries once considered as some of mankind’s greatest achievements in regards to medicine are now being questioned. Take the proliferation of super-bugs in response to an over-proliferation of prescription anti-biotics or studies that seem to indicate that certain vaccines may do more harm than good. Lipton’s beef, as I see it, is not with the whole of Western medicine, but more specifically the dogma of genetic materialism and that chemicals, vis a vis drugs, are our best defense and treatment for illness. I don’t think he has any problems with let’s say, a trauma surgeon re-attaching a severed finger.
If we are to learn anything from the study of science from an historical perspective, we should take note that although current scientific paradigm might seem to be doing us much good, it doesn’t mean that the paradigm is the absolute, best way to view the way in which systems in the Universe work. I’m sure you don’t need to be reminded of the plight of Galileo or the fact that a short time before Einstein’s paper on relativistic theory was published, the leading physicists of the day were exclaiming that we had “discovered everything there is to know” about physics and that the only new knowledge was likely to come from more precise measurements.
The din of Randiesque debunkers is slowly being drowned out by the latest discoveries in quantum mechanics that show conclusively, in my non-scientific opinion, that the influence of fields and quantum non-locality is by far the most promising avenue for future discoveries, not only in medicine, but every other area of science. I do not think it will be long before many areas once considered to be completely woo woo dogma, will be shown, through hypothesis, rigorous experimentation, and a high incidence of repeatable results, to be much more worthy of our attention than the outdated, materialist viewpoint.
Bravo QuantumBeliever!! finally some light on the darkness of this blog. Thank you!!!
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
This comment is really amazing, an excuse used by the traditional doctors of alopathic medicine to cover up the misuse of chemicals and their ignorance about nutrition, the power of the mind and the emotions and quantum physics.

Misdiagnosis happens because doctors are humans who make mistakes. Do you think some cases of misdiagnosis means the whole system is flawed? Why?

The Word diagnostic is a sentence and is been documented over and over that is one of the worst ways to approach any physical problem.

No, it is an identification of a problem. You are in a much better position to help a patient if you know what is going wrong. Even when it is something like cancer, it is often best to be honest.

You mentioned the book Spontaneous Evolution but did you read The Biology Of Belief? If you did you cannot label his DNA theory as "nonsense". What nonsense?

I've read some of it and the material is pretty similar to what he presents in Spontaneous Evolution. Yes I can because he offers no evidence to suggest that we can change our DNA using the power of the mind to cure diseases. Is there anything to the contrary? Why should such an idea be supported?

And these remissions happen all the time, specialy on people that refuse to use chemicals and drugs for their recovery understanding that the disease is not the problem but the result of a way of life that doesn't support well being, based on competition, greed, fear, bad nutrition and a constant state of stress that takes all the energy from every cell in our body.

Could you specify what you mean by "all the time?" There is no evidence that having a certain mindset or a lifestyle vaguely described as directed by competition and fear directly contributes to cancer. Certain lifestyle choices like bad nutrition, smoking, etc. could lead to cancer. There are a lot of variables that go into the final outcome. Some people live very healthy happy lifestyles and still develop the disease. That's because it is ultimately up to the genes you have been dealt and what happens to them as you age, which we have little to no control over at this point.

Maybe you prefer the explanation from doctors labeling an spontaneous remission as a "miracle".

Not as an explanation, "miracle" was just meant to highlight the fact that it is not very likely to happen and people who get sick should not count on it happening and use it as a reason to forego medicine. No one quite knows how it happens, but it is most likely an immune function.

http://noetic.org/research/project/spontaneous-remission/faqs/#question6
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/sep/the-body-can-stave-off-terminal-cancer-sometimes#.Ui9eHBYkVSU

Since no one quite knows how it happens, any proposed mechanism needs evidence in order for it to be able to explain what is actually happening. Lipton offers none to support his ideas.

Chemotherapy is not a perfect solution to cancer by any means, but it does help a lot of people and is often the best we can do against the emperor of all maladies. There are also other therapies that can offer the best help in certain cases. A lot of it depends on the type and stage of the cancer. The development of all of these therapies have made us better equipped than we ever have been in the fight against cancer. If you are claiming that doctors and researchers who use these therapies are completely ignorant of what they are doing and that suggested solutions like Bruce Lipton's are where medicine should head, you need to have hard experimental evidence for that. Or if you think that certain cases demonstrate that the treatments cause more harm then good then provide those cases and some statistics on it.
 

Hmmm

New Member
So I guess that is Lipton officially undebunked.. I haven't read anything on here to effectively debunk his ideas..
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
This comment is really amazing, an excuse used by the traditional doctors of alopathic medicine to cover up the misuse of chemicals and their ignorance about nutrition, the power of the mind and the emotions and quantum physics. The business behind cáncer is an insult, the way these "doctors" use language to comunícate is one of the worst forms of the nocebo effect available. The Word diagnostic is a sentence and is been documented over and over that is one of the worst ways to approach any physical problem. And the worst thing about all your comments related to Bruce Lipton is that you try to make him look like a shaman or a healer when in reality he is a scientist and a great teacher. You mentioned the book Spontaneous Evolution but did you read The Biology Of Belief? If you did you cannot label his DNA theory as "nonsense". What nonsense? is the first time that someone explains in plain english what an spontaneous remission is and how it happens. And these remissions happen all the time, specialy on people that refuse to use chemicals and drugs for their recovery understanding that the disease is not the problem but the result of a way of life that doesn't support well being, based on competition, greed, fear, bad nutrition and a constant state of stress that takes all the energy from every cell in our body. Maybe you prefer the explanation from doctors labeling an spontaneous remission as a "miracle". Yes, that really sounds more scientific and logical than Dr Liptons explanation. A disease is an advise and alopathic medicine keeps telling us that we must use drugs to kill it like it is an alien that just happens to invade our body. By now this should be consider the most ignorant way to approach any disease, this is the real snake-oil because is a big lie and is a cover up from the big pharma corporations to keep selling the very expensive snake oil they sell. I'm tired of seing cáncer patients dying from the drugs they have taken and then reading the reports from their doctors saying that the cáncer was cured but the patient died from pneumonia, or heart attack, or a fungus in the lungs, or liver failure, etc. It is like approaching a house full of rats by burning the house and saying that there are no more rats. But there is no more house either! Unbelievable! Maybe you and Mick West, the moderator of this blog, are sponsored by a big pharma corp which would be the only way to explain the insanity written on the openning remarks of this blog and the disrespectful way you both talk about Dr Lipton. At least his "Snake-Oil is cheaper and has no side effects, that's a big step forward in medicine. And, by the way, please stop saying the phrase "incurable disease" because that really shows, more tan anything else you had posted on this blog, how ignorant you are.

One has to ask if these methods work so unebelievably incredibly well, why aren't there mass healings? Why hasn't word of mouth of the successes spread far and wide?
 

ESCtoNSCtoDAN

New Member
First of all, I found this thread shortly after running into Bruce Lipton on the internet and started doing research into his credibility. That being said I haven't watched any of his videos nor read any of his books but think I have been able to grasp the claims he seems to be making; furthermore, I on the whole tend to agree with the comments made by Dan and the other more scientifically minded people on the thread and my questions will be mainly directed toward them.
While it is impossible change your DNA via the mind or in any sensible/practical degree using retroviral modification, this is what my research is focused on, I do believe there is room for the possibility that the mind can and does help regulate the expression of these genes. While regulation has largely been thought to exist at the transcription level current data suggests that the fine tuning of gene expression is happening during translation via 3'-UTR binding transfactors, long non-coding RNA and miRNA. It doesn't make much sense that the cell would largely regulate gene expression inside the nucleus when it requires so much more energy to export a new pre-mRNA transcript out of the nucleus than it does to regulate the transcript via translational modification.
My questions come here... First what are your thoughts on Dr. Herbert Benson's research? Second, if we accept his research (particularly from this PLOS publication: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002576) that gene expression is changing as a result of this conscious relaxation response then how far fetched of an idea is it to think that conscious thought can at least somehow impact molecular biological processes such as gene expression? While most of the other research I have come across claiming to control physical properties via conscious thought have been "debunked" via my own research (such as Masaru Emoto's water experiment), Dr. Benson's findings have held true for me thus far.
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
While it is impossible change your DNA via the mind or in any sensible/practical degree using retroviral modification, this is what my research is focused on, I do believe there is room for the possibility that the mind can and does help regulate the expression of these genes. While regulation has largely been thought to exist at the transcription level current data suggests that the fine tuning of gene expression is happening during translation via 3'-UTR binding transfactors, long non-coding RNA and miRNA. It doesn't make much sense that the cell would largely regulate gene expression inside the nucleus when it requires so much more energy to export a new pre-mRNA transcript out of the nucleus than it does to regulate the transcript via translational modification.

This is correct. Post-transcritptional regulation is really awesome, actually. siRNAs and miRNAs (siRNAs more so since they are specific and miRNAs aren't) are used in labs to do some really cool stuff and answer questions concerning gene function. Cells have regulation mechanisms at almost every step involved in DNA to RNA to protein. Even proteins can be modified post-translation to regulate their activity.

First what are your thoughts on Dr. Herbert Benson's research?

It's interesting. The paper has its limitations and there is a lot I could say about it because I like microarray analyses, but that would all be off topic. It is interesting research, it doesn't seem like bunk to me. Someone could turn it into bunk, but the authors acknowledge the paper's limitations and state their hypotheses as what they are.

Second, if we accept his research (particularly from this PLOS publication: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002576) that gene expression is changing as a result of this conscious relaxation response then how far fetched of an idea is it to think that conscious thought can at least somehow impact molecular biological processes such as gene expression?

Yes, it can. Relaxation techniques can temporarily change gene expression. We have said in this thread how these changes can happen but do not amount to something that can act as a cure to serious conditions. The paper, for example, describes relatively small levels of change in gene expression. They employed a statistical technique to highlight the smaller changes.

Even though our analyses of differentially expressed genes and GO categories associated with RR practice meet widely accepted criteria for statistical significance, we were concerned about the relatively small fold changes that were observed (see Supplementary Methods). To address this issue we employed Gene Set Enrichment Analysis (GSEA).
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So yes, the biochemical processes involved in thought and perception can influence gene expression, it is a very real phenomenon. The details of that influence, however, do not agree with the bunk that some people build around these ideas. Does that answer your question?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
That was enough to convince you that mind-over-matter is woowoo? :) Umm, what about placebo?

Placebo is great - works as well as many medicines!. Nothing wrong with the concept of mind over matter - the body can ignore pain, and mental states affect physical states.

However fire walking is not an example of it. It's simple physics. You brain does nothing to your feet. Even "expert" fire walks can only walk so far, then their feet burn. It's the same distance as non-experts.

So the point is that using that as an example make it hard to take Lipton seriously.
 
Can anyone show me a study that proves Bruce's statement about the mind (meditational focus) or whatever does NOT effect DNA and its affect on the body?

I dont think sufficient number experiments have been performed with this hypothesis to make any assumption that its true or false.

Also Bruce Lipton discuss on his testing with stem cell in petri dishes raise further questions, I have yet to research more on.
 

Ethnical

Banned
Banned
Bruce Lipton is a biologist who now teaches new age ideas about spirituality and medicine. There is a lot of bunk surrounding this guy, here is one of his lectures.
He also has written two books, The Biology of Belief and Spontaneous Evolution. Both say generally the same thing and have a lot of pseudoscience but here I want to focus on his claim that you can heal incurable diseases with your beliefs and mind. He argues that DNA is more plastic than we are lead to believe, claiming that mutations are not random and that we do have control over our genomes. He also points to epigenetics, the study of how proteins regulate gene expression, as evidence to his claim.

His first claim of mutations not being random has no evidence whatsoever to support it. In his Spontaneous Evolution book, he points to a paper published in Nature in 1988 written by John Cairns. The paper describes an experiment where E. coli with a defective mutant gene for breaking down lactose are placed in a medium containing nothing but lactose. Results were that the bacteria had mutated and were able to break down the lactose and grow. Cairns concluded that the mutation was not random and Lipton claims that we can do similar things when our health is compromised. This idea has huge problems because not only was the experiment flawed but there are perfectly good explanations. All of it is discussed rather thoroughly on Wiki.

Lipton's second claim is where the bulk of his ideas come from. He asserts that since proteins control gene expression that we somehow have power over that mechanism with our consciousness and proceeds to tell stories of miracle cures via hypnosis and meditation that can most likely be explained by cases of misdiagnosis or a very lucky recovery. The problem here is that proteins are made with instruction from DNA and specific proteins regulate the expression of certain genes. No gene, no regulatory protein, so genes indirectly control their own expression. As discussed in the previous point, changes in DNA are random, so we cannot control which gene is going to change to produce which protein unless we use genetic engineering. The misconception comes with epigenetics. The most dramatic epigenetic changes are permanent and happen early in development. Epigenetic changes in mature individuals are usually superficial, such as eye color changes, hormone levels, sleep cycle, and other processes that are already very self-regulated. More can be read on that topic here and here. Lipton claims that these processes can somehow be controlled with our beliefs and be used to unlock DNA that can help us live healthy and peacefully without the help from government or pharmaceutical companies. A classic snake-oil salesman who sells false hope to sick patients.
Again you publish the same nonsense, pure corporative propaganda, completely ignorant of the source of disease and recovery, talking about luck, misdiagnosis, and all kinds of crap. Why don't you créate a site to sell some of the amazing chemical products that keep people slaved for life to drugs that créate worst side effects than the disease itself. It'is really amazing and remarkable to see how every time there is an instant remission of a terminal disease there is always a lack of information from the medical and drug community. You didn't even read the book TBOB so how can you have the nerve to talk about it, you don't even understand it or, on the other hand, you do understand it and on purpose you want to confuse people based on your own interest that you don't mention in this blog. Epigenetics is real, is here and you can say whatever you want about Lanark, Lipton, quantum physics, the power of the Alpha and Theta brain waves, and so many proven resources that we have available today that contribute to the real well being of a human being. I bet if you read Anita Moorjani's book "Dying To Be Me" you will say that her recovery was just luck. Unbelievable. Run people run from this blog, this is the work of two propagandists: Mick West and Dan Wilson. Nothing good comes from their posts, nothing!!!!
 

nanotchi

Member
Again you publish the same nonsense, pure corporative propaganda, completely ignorant of the source of disease and recovery, talking about luck, misdiagnosis, and all kinds of crap. Why don't you créate a site to sell some of the amazing chemical products that keep people slaved for life to drugs that créate worst side effects than the disease itself. It'is really amazing and remarkable to see how every time there is an instant remission of a terminal disease there is always a lack of information from the medical and drug community. You didn't even read the book TBOB so how can you have the nerve to talk about it, you don't even understand it or, on the other hand, you do understand it and on purpose you want to confuse people based on your own interest that you don't mention in this blog. Epigenetics is real, is here and you can say whatever you want about Lanark, Lipton, quantum physics, the power of the Alpha and Theta brain waves, and so many proven resources that we have available today that contribute to the real well being of a human being. I bet if you read Anita Moorjani's book "Dying To Be Me" you will say that her recovery was just luck. Unbelievable. Run people run from this blog, this is the work of two propagandists: Mick West and Dan Wilson. Nothing good comes from their posts, nothing!!!!
This isn't a blog lol, and also, it sounds more like you are spreading propaganda, as you are using emotional appeals here :9
 
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Ethnical

Banned
Banned
I think a forum is a better word. I don't know, "delusional" sounds too emotional.
It looks like for you emotional has a negative meaning, in any case delusional is a better Word and is based on the assumption that any unexplained recovery from a disease that has been diagnosed as incurable from the medical community has to be understood as a lucky event with no explanation whatsoever. That is delussional, and the faster the recovery, the more dilussional the explanation. This "fórum" is not even talking the truth about Lipton's work, not just his theory but his real work. This is beyond theory, which by itself is very conclusive, if you have read the entire book "The Biology Of Belief", which neither Dan Wilson nor Mick West have done. I don't see the gain in trying to make Dr Lipton look like a snake oil seller but there must be one.
 

Ethnical

Banned
Banned
There are posting guidelines to be followed. It is possible this site is not for you.
It looks like for some reason trashing the work of a scientist with no real understanding of his work is considered "following the guidelines of this fórum". I'm sorry but what these two people had written so far about Dr Lipton is so misleading and false, that I coudln't care less about the guidelines of this site. The only thing I care about is that the people that really need this information don't give it a try because of the comments of this blog (fórum is way to big of a Word for the kind of remaks posted about Dr Lipton from people that didn't even read his hole book). Instant remission is a acientific fact and epigenetics together with quantum physics bring a new understanding that is not only necessary but mandatory to change a health system that is collapsing before our own eyes.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Again you publish the same nonsense, pure corporative propaganda, completely ignorant of the source of disease and recovery, talking about luck, misdiagnosis, and all kinds of crap. Why don't you créate a site to sell some of the amazing chemical products that keep people slaved for life to drugs that créate worst side effects than the disease itself. It'is really amazing and remarkable to see how every time there is an instant remission of a terminal disease there is always a lack of information from the medical and drug community. You didn't even read the book TBOB so how can you have the nerve to talk about it, you don't even understand it or, on the other hand, you do understand it and on purpose you want to confuse people based on your own interest that you don't mention in this blog. Epigenetics is real, is here and you can say whatever you want about Lanark, Lipton, quantum physics, the power of the Alpha and Theta brain waves, and so many proven resources that we have available today that contribute to the real well being of a human being. I bet if you read Anita Moorjani's book "Dying To Be Me" you will say that her recovery was just luck. Unbelievable. Run people run from this blog, this is the work of two propagandists: Mick West and Dan Wilson. Nothing good comes from their posts, nothing!!!!


I have a handful of friends who have had liver or kidney transplants. they are on drugs, for life. The alternative is death.
 
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