Claim: Musk got the 150 yr old SS recipients figure from COBOL's default date of 1875
- Thread starter fizzBuzz
- Start date
Scaramanga
Senior Member
Do you have to actually 'claim' state pension as we do in the UK ? Here one receives a letter, a few months before state retirement date, asking if you want to receive the state pension at retirement date. You can defer it if you want ( which leads to a slightly larger pension ), or just not receive it at all. So it is not automatic enrolment. This also prevents dead people from receiving state pension in the first place.
Scaramanga
Senior Member
The real issue with government is that once you give people jobs in it they then feel the constant need to justify their existence by coming up with ever more new 'plans' for this or that...even if those plans are totally un-necessary. We don't necessarily have more and more laws because we need more laws....but because lawmakers make laws.
That's how one ended up with the crazy situation of 20mph speed limits being imposed over larger and larger areas of Wales. Ostensibly to 'save lives'....but I suspect really some guy in an office had nothing to do. After public outrage ( nobody ever asked the public if they wanted such limits ) most of the 20mph limits have now been removed. But that is a fine example of government jobs creating work rather than a demand for work creating the jobs.
deirdre
Senior Member.
Enabling states to continue crappy stewardship of their own states is not a solution.
and yes it was nice (and frankly necessary) of the feds to up the program payouts during covid, but in my state it is the republicans arguing against the dems to raise the funds in our state energy assistance program. Our governor is using budget surpluses to pay down our pension account which our state royally f'ed up ( which he kinda has to, but point is we did this to ourselves). He- a dem- also screwed up with how he used covid funds across the board* and his 'clean energy' initiatives. And of course we have bloated government in-state too. like 10% of our energy assistance was/is going to administrative costs..which is a ridiculous amount in the age of computers.
* non financially he did a very good job with covid esp for a Dem!
Point is, implying -out of context- republicans want our elderly neighbors to freeze or boil is dirty pool.
Both state and fed programs give benefits to TOO MANY PEOPLE who do not really need it. Dont get me started on how many people, with plenty of money, did not pay their rent or electric during covid because the state said we didnt have to! I'm really mad at all those people because now our low income residents are suffering for their greed. "It's not fair to make rich people pay if the poor people dont have to"... (as a person with enough money to get through a pandemic i say ...pfft. You couldnt even ignore the stimulus payouts you dont need, because now if you didnt claim them they are just automatically sending them to you. stupid stupid )
deirdre
Senior Member.
i dont know. im not that age yet. i assume its tied to Medicare which is medical insurance you paid into.
apparently we need to be 67 now.
Article: If you have reached full retirement age, but are not yet age 70, you can ask us to suspend your retirement benefit payments. By doing this, you will earn delayed retirement credits for each month your benefits are suspended which will result in a higher benefit payment to you.
If you are eligible for benefits as a survivor, your full retirement age is age 66 if you were born between 1945 and 1956. The full retirement age gradually increases to age 67 for people born in 1962 or later.
Ann K
Senior Member.
Well... it began with Musk telling an obvious falsehood in the Oval Office. As with the UFO stories or the tales of miracles, step one with debunking any claim should be (although it isn't always) determining "Did this really happen?" before asking "How did it happen?"
Ann K
Senior Member.
If eliminating that particular problem were the purpose of the current firings (that is, determining if a program needs to exist at all) then fine. But there seems to have been no effort by the administration to do that, and so we get essential workers and ones doing important jobs being removed, such as the ones in charge of our nuclear weaponry, and the ones keeping financial institutions secure and honest, and ones who try their best to ensure air traffic safety.
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
I'm assuming you mean in regards to 150 yr olds receiving SS? If so, how are you so certain this is not true?
TheCholla
Active Member
This report from 2023 talks about this, mention that 98% of the registered people born in 1920 or earlier (105+) are not receiving SSA payments (footnote 7):
https://oig.ssa.gov/assets/uploads/a-06-21-51022.pdf
That makes for ~44,000 people receiving it (from which a good part aren't dead).
This table from December 2024 also lists ~89,000 SSA beneficiaries of age 99+:
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/benefits/ra_age202412.html
Very far from "tens of millions" of dead people receiving SSA, as claimed on Fox News by the WH press secretary.
Source: https://x.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1891814901179355305
https://oig.ssa.gov/assets/uploads/a-06-21-51022.pdf
That makes for ~44,000 people receiving it (from which a good part aren't dead).
This table from December 2024 also lists ~89,000 SSA beneficiaries of age 99+:
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/benefits/ra_age202412.html
Very far from "tens of millions" of dead people receiving SSA, as claimed on Fox News by the WH press secretary.
Source: https://x.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1891814901179355305
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
Well the "tens of millions" could just be the total number of deceased (regardless of age) that are receiving SS. But, I'm in the boat where I want to see the evidence first. "Tens of millions" sounds like it would be an over-exaggeration and if I was forced to make a prediction right now, I would say this is probably not true. Tens of millions is a lot of people. Tens of thousands.. maybe.
deirdre
Senior Member.
thats not really true as your statement implies. i provided the data in the other thread.
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
After thinking about it more.. I'm willing to say it's more likely that Leavitt misspoke than it is Trump and DOGE suspect tens of millions of dead people to be receiving SS. Maybe she meant to say tens of thousands? Not excusing it, but all of this would just make more sense if that were the case.
deirdre
Senior Member.
there could also be confusion regarding "surviving beneficiaries". like wives continue to receive the ss form their husbands ss number.
even a 150 year olds ss number could still technically be having payments sent through their ss number. like if my mom was born with special needs and her grandfather (born in 1875) had claimed her as his dependent..which you can..she could technically be still receiving his ss benefits.
deirdre
Senior Member.
ok she might have got that number from elon as he posted this earlier that day. (i guess he assumes everyone older than 100 is dead. but "tens" is really 20. looking at his chart) and she misspoke about what elon was claiming.
Source: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891557463377490431
Source: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891557463377490431
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
Usually the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.
Though I would feel pretty comfortable claiming that there is nobody who is 150 years old receiving Social security payments.
Presumably, Musk throws this out there hoping that the mere claim must indicate fraud. If he is doing so without first doing due diligence to understand the anomalies then I am also very comfortable assuming that Musk is not acting in good faith and thus is not deserving of any benefit of the doubt on his claims.
He should have to prove them all before we assert them as true and demand others prove them wrong.
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fizzBuzz
Senior Member
Thanks, I missed the part where Musk said "tens of millions".
Ann K
Senior Member.
Link, please?
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
I feel comfortable stating that there is no one actually 150 years old receiving social security benefits. Do I need to prove that?
Can you specify the claim (other than that one) that I have made you feel is unsubstantiated?
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
According to This Wikipedia page on "supercentenarians" the currently oldest living American is 114 years old. Does that substantiate the claim that nobody of age 150 could be collecting social security now?
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
Wait.. are you claiming that there are no LIVING 150 yr old people receiving SS? I think everyone would agree with this.
But no one has claimed there are living 150 yr olds. Not Musk, not Leavitt, not Ann, not anyone.
You said this:
Which implies you are referencing Musk's claim, which is that there are 150 yr old non-living people being sent SS checks.
There is an article on Wired that talks about this. It is behind a Paywall, but I was able to read it on my iPhone.
Bottom line is there are no 150 year olds getting social security. Just people who didn't bother to find out how the Social Security computer system works. That 1875 date is just the 'null' value their system puts in when there is no date information available.
Social Security automatically cuts off payments when a person reaches the age of 115.
Wired article on Social Security
Bottom line is there are no 150 year olds getting social security. Just people who didn't bother to find out how the Social Security computer system works. That 1875 date is just the 'null' value their system puts in when there is no date information available.
Social Security automatically cuts off payments when a person reaches the age of 115.
Wired article on Social Security
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
No I believe that he is implying that because there are no 150 year old people alive that could legitimately be collecting social security then these entries must be fraudulent. Is that not what he is implying? Is he presenting evidence of the fraud other than the age in a database entry?
If he believes it is possible that it is a simple clerical error why would he be reporting it publicly alongside all of his other findings on waste and fraud?
I will admit that I cannot know exactly why he is putting that information out there. And I guess I can't prove that he didn't do his due diligence on determining that this is indeed fraud and not some non-fraudulent error, but if that were the case presumably he would and should identify the nature of the fraud.
I believe that he is relying on the predisposed notion of many people that the government is full of waste and simply by juxtaposing potential innocent errors alongside other claims that they will be interpreted as fraud.
You are right that I cannot Currently prove my beliefs to be true but I do think that if an audit were being performed in good faith its results would not be presented in this manner.
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
You should probably read this whole thread. The 1875 thing has been disputed and is most likely not correct, but it hasn't been confirmed.
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
Presumably Musk and his team, who have direct access to the database and the software, could determine this and report their findings and clear up the confusion. Right?
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
The "fraud" part is an extension of his claim. The core of his claim is as I've stated, 150 yr old dead people being sent SS checks.
I don't know this to be fact, but I wouldn't imagine a simple clerical error would suffice for instances like this. If people are cashing SS checks that were meant to be for someone else (whom is now dead and regardless if it's a clerical error), that's probably some form of fraud. But I'm not a legal expert. It's at the very least unethical. Would you agree?
I don't disagree with this and I think this is likely with some of the information that Musk is putting out there. I've stated before on here (in the other bash Elon thread) that I think Musk should be more responsible with what information he puts out there.
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
I fully expect this to happen, yes. Will they live up to my expectation? who knows.
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
I absolutely agree. It's just that based on my knowledge of Musk and his communication style I am not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he has evidence of fraud he should present that. I won't simply believe it based on just what he's presented so far. I think he is being deliberately misleading and not working in good faith.
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
I would argue he has a responsibility, perhaps even a legal one, to do so. Congress is charged by the Constitution with the "power of the purse" so it should be officially reported to them to rectify through legal means.
deirdre
Senior Member.
we know now that isnt true because there are people listed way older than 150 on the chart musk is looking at. so he just said 150 (probably because the older ones only have hundreds of people, vs thousands.
deirdre
Senior Member.
oh. i never thought that was the implication
that is the very definition of fraud. you would have to sign his name to the checks (and automatic bank deposits on an account with a signature still count as you 'signing his name). Thinking...it is possible someone had a ank account his family didnt know about and checks are still being deposited (not sure if they had direct deposit 50 years ago though) and the money is just sitting in some bank account noone knows about. <that wouldnt be fraud, unless someone cashes money from the account.
.
deirdre
Senior Member.
he wouldnt be investigating the actual fraud. thats a different group of people that investigate fraud. so he would be handing all this over to the fraud department. and i think its fbi.
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
why else would he mention this if not to implicate fraud? Isn't his claimed position to root out fraud? If, for example, it is a clerical error, would it not make sense to determine that before listing it among other fraud claims?
deirdre
Senior Member.
this comment of yours is about the 1875 cobol thing, which has already been proven false.
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
Fair enough. I look forward to hearing about this showing up on the FBI's desk to investigate.
deirdre
Senior Member.
he is not saying that some data entry person purposefully made the dead person alive so they could then apply for ss and steal money.
at least i dont think anyone but you thinks that. i could be wrong.
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
No. I don't know anything about cobol or 1875 and I have seen no compelling evidence that COBOL dating is the issue here. I don't know why there would be listings of 150 year old people, as there are no people in this country over 115 years old. I look forward to hearing why they are there and if it is fraud.
