Charlie Kirk Shooting

Might make an interesting thread in the appropriate section, though, even at that risk. Just a thought, disregard if it's ot a can of worms you want to open.
someone else could open it. id love to see others ideas <and thats not sarcasm. Some of the brains on this forum are wired much different than other forums where we've brainstormed such things, so it would be super helpful (and yes interesting) to get the input from here.
 
I've watched the videos of the shooting from lots of angles and what's curious is that his shirt moves before the bullet hits his neck.

Is it possible that he was wearing a bulletproof vest and that the bullet hit that first and then ricocheted into his neck?
Maybe not the best practice, but after a 3-4 am wakeup call, if I'm unable to get back to sleep I will scroll Facebook or youtube feeds to breakup whatever random thought train I can't shake. Last night I watched several times a short clip, maybe 10 seconds and slowed way down, that had title about a ricochet off a vest, and into neck. No commentary, graphics, or sound of any kind. At start of video there was a (supposed) entry mark on shirt and no neck wound. The few jerky frames of video showed what seemed like a vest jumping upward under shirt & upper body jerking from impact, but still no neck wound, next grainy video jump showed a larger than .30" neck wound & blood.

It certainly looked like a chest hit to a vest, and a tumbling ricochet into neck. There were comments about the lack of blood spray behind that would indicate an exit wound from 30-06 hit to the neck, and comments about the bullet likely being lodged in cranium. Which seems plausible. I just checked my YT history and do NOT find that video. Apparently it's gone. I suppose it could have been fake? Many commenters were saying "no vest" and claimed nipples through the T shirt were visible. I'll wait for an autopsy report before accepting anything.
 
It certainly looked like a chest hit to a ves
ive watched alot of tennis this summer, as my mom is into it, where the guys wear those polyester? type shirts and the way it hugs his back and chest in all photos ive seen show no indication of a vest or anything.
 
There were comments about the lack of blood spray behind that would indicate an exit wound from 30-06 hit to the neck

I can't find the appropriate clip on the BBC News website, so this is sort of anecdotal, but on the day of the shooting one of TV channel BBC1's news programmes had footage of a woman at the site of the shooting, talking to a camera crew shortly after, saying there was a "fountain" of blood from Kirk's neck.
Can't remember her exact wording, but "fountain" stayed with me.
 
I can't find the appropriate clip on the BBC News website, so this is sort of anecdotal, but on the day of the shooting one of TV channel BBC1's news programmes had footage of a woman at the site of the shooting, talking to a camera crew shortly after, saying there was a "fountain" of blood from Kirk's neck.
Can't remember her exact wording, but "fountain" stayed with me.
That video is available online and it was a fountain its not nice to watch and even worse when you realise his wife and kids are in the crowd.
I did watch an analysis from a sniper who explained the movement in the tshirt and he had 2 explanations due to limited information at the time. And making assumptions will get your comment removed so I dont want to say but I will try and find the link.
 
I can't find the appropriate clip on the BBC News website, so this is sort of anecdotal, but on the day of the shooting one of TV channel BBC1's news programmes had footage of a woman at the site of the shooting, talking to a camera crew shortly after, saying there was a "fountain" of blood from Kirk's neck.
Can't remember her exact wording, but "fountain" stayed with me.
that was out the front wound though. the conspiracy theorists seem to think the bullet went through him so youd get stuff coming out the back of his neck. apparently they think the shooter was parallel in height, so the bullet should have gone straight through hsi neck and coem out above his shoulders where they'd see "spray".

obviously the shooter was not parallel, so even IF the bullet exited (and didnt get lodged in his spine..which is what it looks like to me) it would have exited behind his back. ie. where we wouldnt see it anyway.
 
Some random thoughts about the vest theory...

- It wouldn't be a vest. It would be a stand alone trauma plate. You'll find them in 3 materials Steel, Ceramic & Polyethelyne. Steel plates are the thinnest but also the heaviest with polyethelene being the reverse (thickest & lightest) and ceramic in between.

- For 30-06 a Level 3 trauma plate would be the minimal to stop typical soft core ball or hunting rounds while a level 4 would be required to stop a steel core armor piercing round.

- Plates don't fully cover the torso and typically taper inwards slightly near the top.

- Rounds don't generally deflect upon impact with a plate, they disintegrate with the shrapnel being absorbed. A quality steel plate will have a spall liner which should catch the shrapnel keeping it from deflecting into the wearer.

- A 30-06 is a very powerful round. It's going to deliver a solid blow even if the round is stopped. That would be noticeable, far more than a minor flinch. Look up some footage of people shooting 30-06 rifles in the standing position and see the amount of recoil it generates. A similar impact would occur on the other end.

- A round just nicking the side of the carotid would indeed cause the blood to escape outwards in that direction rather than being carried rearward.

I'm not really interested in rewatching any of those videos frame by frame right now to get a better idea of what the 'vest ricochet' people are claiming but the above info should help get you in the right direction.
 
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Sorry the first video he says about it not needing to be a professional sniper at the start I didnt realise it was a 18 mins of jones and methylene blue adverts.
This 2nd video is a better analysis and shorter I will remove the first one if I am able.
 
fwiw, I totally get why people would want to watch this...even over & over.

God knows I've watched the Zapruder film literally 1,000 times, over the decades. I'm still obsessed about that.

And there have been times that I needed to completely understand a grisly scene for professional reasons.

On the other hand, though, at this later stage of my life, I've seen enough difficult stuff (including many

wildlife scenes that broke my heart)
...that my brain just doesn't need any more trauma.

If there were a legit question about what happened on 9/10/25, yeah, I'd probably make myself watch it

until I felt I was confident that I understood it. But there isn't, and I think CK is being whitewashed a bit much,

anyway, so Ima take a pass this time, & give my brain a break. But no judgement of anyone handling it differently.
 
Sorry the first video he says about it not needing to be a professional sniper at the start I didnt realise it was a 18 mins of jones and methylene blue adverts.
This 2nd video is a better analysis and shorter I will remove the first one if I am able.
Please post descriptions of videos in accordance with the Posting guidelines.
 
obviously the shooter was not parallel, so even IF the bullet exited (and didnt get lodged in his spine..which is what it looks like to me) it would have exited behind his back. ie. where we wouldnt see it anyway.
I can assure you that a full power 30-06 would be extremely unlikely to lodge in the spine from a shot like that.

This is it vs a realistic ballistics gel head. TLDR; the head explodes.

This is a shot that is very similar to what happened but taken at 600 yards and with a 308. The bullet sails through the spine and exists the back.
A 308 is a slightly shortened 30-06 for those who didn't know. Also, the timestamp I've link to is just him quickly explaining the damage. No closups there. The shot happens a bit sooner but nothing spectacular is shown. I didn't bother to watch any of the rest of the video.
 
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I don't think the head, or the demonstration, is that realistic (while not questioning the horrendous damage that 30-06 Springfield and similar rifle rounds can inflict).

Ballistic gel approximates the density of human muscle, but not tensile strength; it is often used to assess the penetration of a round in soft tissue but isn't used (AFAIK) to model wound characteristics (possibly with the important exception of cavitation).

External Quote:
While ballistic gelatin does not model the tensile strength of muscles or the structures of the body such as skin and bones, it works fairly well as an approximation of tissue...
Wikipedia, "Ballistic geltin", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_gelatin

The head model used by the Dual Liberty Firearms YouTube poster uses copious amounts of ballistic gelatin, which lacks the tensile strength of most human tissue, and a disproportionately small resin skull.
Unfortunately I can't reference a comparison, but I'd suggest most modelling resins (for casting or 3D printing) are much more brittle than bone.
The model skull used has sinister, strangely-shaped eye sockets; human skulls (and anatomically correct resin models used for tuition) have much rounder orbits. There are other anatomical oddities, and it looks a bit like it's sneering!
This "skull" is almost certainly a slightly ghoulish collectable, not an anatomically correct model for teaching purposes, and it must be very unlikely that it was constructed to mimic the mechanical qualities of a real skull.

Screenshot 2025-09-14 214515.png


In the video, there is effectively nothing left above the neck/ lower part of (gel) jaw after one round has been fired. The resin has shattered, and most of the ballistic gel has flown away.

The 30-06 round was the standard US forces rifle round in both World Wars and in Korea; the other major combatants in those conflicts used rounds of similar power (roughly 3400-4000 joules muzzle energy, the 30-06 is toward the upper end of that range) in their rifles and light machine guns. These weapons were produced, and used, in their millions.

But, without wishing in any way to diminish the horrific head injuries that these rounds can inflict, we don't have many narratives of vanishing heads caused by single rounds. I think the YouTube poster was trying to demonstrate the power of his round, but the demonstration is unrealistic. But the reality is grim enough.
 
This "skull" is almost certainly a slightly ghoulish collectable, not an anatomically correct model for teaching purposes, and it must be very unlikely that it was constructed to mimic the mechanical qualities of a real skull.
I think the YouTube poster was trying to demonstrate the power of his round, but the demonstration is unrealistic. But the reality is grim enough.
Yeah I done goofed getting that video. I intended to originally link to a different type of dummy that is made to be as realistic as possible for use by agencies by the FBI. I was looking for a neck shot but stumbled upon that one. I should have left it out.

Edit: I'm just going to start spoiler tagging my explanations for damage sustained from rifle rounds.
But since we are here, I will link to Brandon Herrera's MLK Assassination video which was done with a 30-06 where he uses one of those FBI dummy heads. And yes, the cranium is sufficiently evaported, albeit, with the shot coming in from a much different angle. Viewer discretion is heavily advised. He did shoot the dummy in the chin and spine before that but it did negligible damage to the skull.

Also, if you still aren't convinced, by those dummy heads, the 6.5×52mm Carcano was used in JFK's assassination. It's has lower diameter, similar weight, and lower speed to a 30-06. Here is an illustration of the aftermath from the wikipage. Do note that the dummy is also hit lower than JFK was and also both rounds that hit JFK passed through.

Somewhat unrelated, here is a "fun" quote I found in this research paper

External Quote:

Additional fractures (after Karger [9])


The bony injury seen may be complicated by further fractures. Karger [9, p151] describes how secondary radial fractures are induced by the bullet's impact and originate at the entry and exit sites. Karger also describes how the brain is vulnerable to cavitation [9, p149] but the intact skull does not allow expansion, resulting in high pressures within the cranial cavity. If the overpressure exceeds the skull's capacity to elastically extend, indirect concentric fractures result. Sufficiently high pressures will result in fractures combining to produce an 'explosive' type of injury

This thread has been a wild ride. Its gone from the political motivations of an assassination, to the explanation of furries, to the logistics and likelyhood of a skull going *pop* when exposed to the full force of a 30-06.
 
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Greetings from Afghanistan where I'm back, working on issues related to de-radicalization, counterterrorism and systemic conflict risks. Was just in Brussels last week where I was invited to answer questions posed by various inter-governmental and state services on causes of terrorism, and couldn't help but see the parallels with the Charlie Kirk reprehensible assassination as well as other forms of political violence, irrespective of ideological leaning.

As a rough encapsulation, jihadist terrorism is carried out by (1) impressionable youth who have been led by (2) ideological influencers to believe that God hates the same people they hold grievances towards, but with double the venom. In the past, I've personally felt the surreal sincerity of such youth at close range as their intended target.

As a parallel, political terrorism and violence is also often carried out by impressionable youth who have been led by ideological influencers (irrespective of leaning) to hate a group of people, and to regard them as a non-factual existential threat against which defensive violence is called for. The element of personal grievance, or psychological disorder, is often also present in all these types of violent acts, whether jihadist or non-jihadist.

The preventable root-causes (both active and passive) underlying successful terrorist recruitment and radicalisation are not stand-alone causes, but rather complex causes, where all the pieces must fit together whilst any one or two pieces co-existing will not result in terrorist violence. Similarly, a multi-pronged approach to address all of them is necessary to curb or prevent terrorism. The complex of causes of an individual or groups radicalised to autonomously carry out violent armed acts include, but are not necessarily entirely exhausted, by the following 5 factors (if even one is lacking, the act of violence would not occur):

(1) Ideologies/narratives denigrating other groups of people (on any ground really, including having a different or personally offensive opinion) while exalting one's own reference group as more sacred; the foregoing includes hate-speech and misinformation on other groups posing non-factual existential threats against which defensive violence represents a morally justified response;

(2) Lack of independent critical thinking resulting from blind belief and trust in convincing (and often 'sciency', instead of scientific) ideological influencers feeding impressionable audiences with said ideologies/narratives;

(3) Personal grievance and/or psychological disorder;

(4) Low moral threshold for violence, beyond genuine self-defence and protection of civilians from armed aggression, as a means to advance the agenda one has internalised;

(5) Access to firearms;
 
The Tyler Robinson arrest affidavit has been released showing the timeline and evidence for his current charges (AGGRAVATED MURDER, FELONY DISCHARGE OF FIREARM - CAUSING SERIOUS BODILY INJURY, OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE - CAPITAL/FIRST DEGREE FELONY CONDUCT).

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I believe there is probable cause to charge the defendant with these charges because:
The following information was obtained by your affiant from police officers, multiple
video recordings posted on social media websites, Utah Valley University campus
surveillance cameras and those who witnessed the incident.
On September 10, 2025, Charles James Kirk was at the Utah Valley University (UVU)
campus in Orem, Utah, for a political event. Mr. Kirk is a conservative political activist
who was scheduled to speak at an event in the courtyard area on the UVU campus. The
courtyard area is to the west of the Losee Center building. According to video
recordings, Charles was wearing a white T-shirt and dark pants, sitting under a white
canopy in a courtyard of the campus facing to the east. The event was attended by
hundreds of individuals. Charles was surrounded by people, with multiple individuals to
his left, right, and rear, and front of the canopy. Behind the canopy was a walkway used
for access to various parts of the university.
Charles was holding a microphone and speaking to a crowd. While speaking into the
microphone, a loud gunshot was heard at approximately 1223 hours, and Charles
appeared to have been hit in the neck. Blood was seen coming out of the left side of his
neck as he fell over to his left. Charles was transported to the Timpanogos Regional
Hospital in Orem. Charles was pronounced deceased at the hospital.
Investigators reviewed the Utah Valley University surveillance cameras. While reviewing
the surveillance cameras, investigators observed an individual on the rooftop of the
Losee Center building on the UVU campus at the time of the shooting. Hereafter, the
unidentified individual will be referred to as "Suspect". Based on surveillance camera
footage, Suspect appears to be a white male with dark colored hair, wearing a dark
colored hat, sunglasses, a long sleeve black shirt with a picture of an American flag and
an eagle printed on the shirt, dark colored jeans, and white/gray shoes with white
colored shoelaces (the shoes appear to be consistent with Chuck Taylor/Converse style
shoes). Suspect is also carrying a dark colored backpack on his back. Suspect walks
with a distinctive gait. Prior to the shooting, Suspect appears to walk with a stiff, right leg
and at a relatively slow pace. Suspect's ability to bend his right leg appears to be
restricted. Investigators were able to track Suspect's movements on the UVU campus,
starting at approximately 1150 hours on 9/10/2025.
At approximately 1150 hours, a UVU surveillance camera first captured Suspect walking
across a grassy area north of Campus Drive at approximately 800 West. Suspect
walked south through the parking lot and approached a pedestrian tunnel that runs
underneath Campus Drive. Before entering the tunnel, Suspect paused at the top of the
stairs and pulled out what appeared to be a cellphone from his right pocket using his
right hand at approximately 1153 hours. Suspect eventually put what appeared to be a

cellphone back in his right pants pocket using his right hand. Surveillance captured
Suspect making his way toward the Losee center.
At approximately 1202 hours, Suspect was recorded walking on the north side of the
Losee Center building, walking with the same gait as observed earlier. Suspect entered
the Losee Center building through a set of doors on the southeast corner of the Losee
Center building. At approximately 1215 hours, Suspect was observed walking up the
stairs that lead to the common area adjacent to the Losee Center building. Suspect
walked to a short concrete wall that separates the common area from the rooftop of the
Losee Center building. At approximately 1217 hours, Suspect climbed over the short
wall and appeared to crouch down on the north side of the wall on the rooftop. At
approximately 1222 hours, Suspect stood up and started running across the rooftop of
the Losee Center building. The notable limp from previous surveillance was absent.
Suspect ran to the west side of the rooftop and appeared to scoot along the rooftop
area as he got closer to the edge of the rooftop. At approximately 1222 hours, Suspect
laid down in a position consistent with a prone shooting position near the edge of the
rooftop and appeared to be facing west, in the direction of the courtyard area.
The rooftop of the Losee Center building overlooks the courtyard area where the event
featuring Charlie Kirk was taking place. The Losee Center building is east of the
courtyard area. At approximately 1223 hours, Charlie Kirk was shot. At approximately
1223 hours, surveillance shows that Suspect stood up suddenly from the edge of the
rooftop and sprinted north on the rooftop of the Losee Center building. Suspect ran to
the northeast corner of the Losee Center building and approached the edge of the
rooftop. Suspect placed a dark colored item on the rooftop and proceeded to lower
himself off the rooftop. Suspect dropped off the rooftop onto the grass below. Suspect
ran north near the parking lot to the east of the Losee Center. At approximately 1224
hours, Suspect ran north across the Campus Drive road. Suspect appeared to be
carrying an item, whose identity is not clear from the surveillance.
The area to the north of Campus Drive road where Suspect crossed over consists of a
grassy area with trees on the edge of the UVU campus. Investigators discovered a bolt
action rifle wrapped in a dark colored towel. The rifle was determined to be a Mauser
Model 98, .30-06 caliber bolt action rifle. The rifle had a scope mounted on top of it.
Investigators noted inscriptions that had been engraved on casings found with the rifle.
Inscriptions on a fired casing read "Notices Buldge OWO what's this?". Inscriptions on
the three unfired casings read: "hey fascist! CATCH! (up arrow symbol, right arrow
symbol, and three down arrow symbols)". A second unfired casing read "O Bella ciao,
Bella ciao, Bella ciao, Ciao, ciao!". A third unfired casing read "If you read This, you are
GAY Lmao".

Investigators also discovered a shoe impression on the northeast corner rooftop edge of
the Losee Center building. This shoe impression was located in the vicinity where
Suspect climbed down from the rooftop. The shoe impression is consistent with the
shoe sole characteristics of a Converse/Chuck Taylor shoe.
On the evening of September 11, 2025 a family member of Tyler Robinson reached out
to a family friend, who contacted the Washington County Sheriff's Office with
information that Robinson had confessed to them or implied that he had committed the
incident. This information was relayed to the Utah County Sheriff's Office and scene
investigators at UVU. This information was also conveyed to the FBI.
Investigators reviewed additional video footage from UVU surveillance, and identified
Robinson arriving on UVU campus in a grey Dodge Challenger at approximately 08:29
on September 10 th , in which he is observed on video in a plain maroon t-shirt, light
colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo, and light colored shoes. When
encountered in-person by investigators in Washington County on September 12, early
morning hours, Robinson was observed in consistent clothing with the surveillance
images.
Investigators interviewed a family member of Robinson, who stated that Robinson had
become more political in recent years. The family member referenced a recent incident
in which Robinson came to dinner, prior to September 10, 2025, and in conversation
with another family member, Robinson mentioned Charlie Kirk was coming to UVU.
They talked about why they didn't like him and the viewpoints he had. The family
member also stated Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate. The family member also
confirmed Robinson had a grey Dodge Challenger.
Investigators identified an individual as the roommate of Robinson. Investigators
interviewed the roommate, who stated that his roommate (referring to Robinson) made
a joke on discord. Investigators asked if he would show them the messages on discord,
he opened it and showed several messages to investigators and allowed investigators
to take photos of the screen as each message was shown by Robinson's roommate.
These photos consisted of various messages, including content of messages between
the phone contact name "Tyler" with an emoji icon, and Robinson's roommate's device.
The content of these messages included messages affiliated with the contact "Tyler"
stating a need to retrieve a rifle from a drop point, leaving the rifle in a bush, messages
related to visually watching the area where a rifle was left, and a message referring to
having left the rifle wrapped in a towel. The messages also refer to engraving bullets,
and a mention of a scope and the rifle being unique. Messages from the contact Tyler
also mention that he had changed outfits.
Based on the evidence detailed in this statement, I believe there is probable cause that
Tyler Robinson committed the crimes of aggravated murder by shooting Charlie Kirk in

a circumstance that put many around him at grave risk of death, felony discharge of a
firearm, and obstruction of justice for moving and hiding the rifle believed to be used in
the shooting.
By submitting this affidavit, I declare under criminal penalty of the State of Utah that the foregoing is true and correct.
/S/ Davis, Brian
Source: https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2025/09/tyler-robinson-affidavit-redacted.pdf
 

Attachments

For those with the cork boards and red string:

External Quote:
The governor said among those co-operating with authorities is Mr Robinson's roommate, who he said was also his partner.

He said the partner did not have have any knowledge about the alleged shooting, had been "incredibly co-operative" and was working with investigators "right now".

He also confirmed that the partner was currently "transitioning from male to female", but, when asked by CNN, said that authorities do not yet know if that is relevant to the investigation.
-- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gvrw2pgedo

External Quote:
The motive and political ideology of Robinson, 22, are subjects of intense online debate. Some conservatives have insisted he's an unhinged leftist. Liberals have pushed back by pointing to Robinson's conservative upbringing in Utah.

In a Daily Mail interview Friday, family matriarch Debbie Robinson said the family supports President Trump's MAGA movement.
"Most of my family members are Republican, she said. "I don't know any single one who's a Democrat."
-- https://www.axios.com/2025/09/13/kirk-suspect-transgender-roommate
 
the first video he says about it not needing to be a professional sniper

I will not listen to Alex Jones but this is accurate.

While I wasn't born there, I spent a good chunk of my life living in Utah. Utahns are obsessed with guns. Especially the Mormons. I had a roommate in my early twenties that had almost 20 guns. Many of them go hunting, a lot of them just like to go shooting. It is how I learned to shoot.

It doesn't surprise me at all that a 22-year-old guy from Utah could hit a shot from ~150-200 yards. Most deer hunters will sight their rifles around 100 yards. Beyond that all it takes is a little shooting experience to know where to aim.
 
For those with the cork boards and red string:
Utahns are obsessed with guns. Especially the Mormons.


i'd like to put out there that the young man who asked the question just before the shooting is being looked at suspiciously by many online because of the timing of his question, which likely came from this article (according to conspiracy theorists). underline added for highlight.

Article:

Trump DOJ is looking at ways to ban transgender Americans from owning guns, sources say

Sept 4 2025

From January 2013 to the present, of the more than 5,700 mass shootings in America (defined as four or more victims shot and killed), five shooters were confirmed as transgender, said Mark Bryant, founding executive director of the Gun Violence Archive.


But the young man has been investigated by police and seems legitimately devastated (i watched his video) at what happened
Article:
"First off, you sick f***ing psychos that think this is the answer… um, it's not. I don't know what else to say," Kozak says.

"It's f***ing not. It's awful, and a father doesn't have his kids anymore. Charlie had two kids and a wife. And, like, not to make this about me, but I have two kids and a wife. And if my one-year-old boy… His one-year-old boy will grow up without memories of his dad."


He continued: "It's a tragedy and it's hard to grapple with, and I'm part of a community that is struggling to grapple with it right now. And people have obviously pointed to the irony that… I was, the point I was trying to make was how peaceful the left was right before he got shot. And that, that only makes sense if we stay peaceful.

"I'm on the record for how much I disagree with Charlie Kirk, but he is still a human being – have we forgotten that? Are we crazy?
 
Article:

Trump DOJ is looking at ways to ban transgender Americans from owning guns, sources say

Sept 4 2025

From January 2013 to the present, of the more than 5,700 mass shootings in America (defined as four or more victims shot and killed), five shooters were confirmed as transgender, said Mark Bryant, founding executive director of the Gun Violence Archive.
So less than 0.1%. Whereas even the most conservative estimates of the proportion of transgender-identifying people in the USA are around 0.4%. They're not the ones doing the mass shootings, one might be tempted to suggest it's more the remit of those who don't suppress testosterone levels.
 
So after future shootings, what is the criteria that will restrict certain demographics from owning guns?
 
So after future shootings, what is the criteria that will restrict certain demographics from owning guns?
it would depend on which party is in power at the time. That's why "mental health" is so problematic for legislatures.. each side knows the other side will abuse it.
Even the fact we see so many biased decisions in judges these days is bad, red flag laws depends on a judge making a determination. which of course is also based on evaluations by possibly biased psychologists. How many women got locked up and lobotomized because some psychiatrist agreed with the popular opinion of that fad!?. And the reverse, how many psychos get released because of current popular opinion? Mental Health is a sticky wicket.
 
So after future shootings, what is the criteria that will restrict certain demographics from owning guns?
It's wide open.
Surely someone will argue against those raised by two Republican parents, like this young man.
ETA: Not meant seriously...but to make the point that what any set of incidents "tells" us, is a bit of a rorschach test...
 
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pretty sure that is whole premise behind being NATOs "backstop" and "security guarantee".

Not sure the upbringing or actions of Tyler Robinson are analogous to proposals to base NATO troops in Ukraine, if there is a negotiated ceasefire, in order to deter further Russian aggression.
But would agree that photos of Robinson visiting a military base as a child, and being allowed to handle military hardware, does not necessarily raise a red flag. I'd guess many other small boys would do the same, given the opportunity.
We feel uncomfortable looking at those photos knowing what he (allegedly) did.
 
Not sure the upbringing or actions of Tyler Robinson are analogous to proposals to base NATO troops in Ukraine
i was talking about europe in general. we're your security guarantee too you know. just saying. maybe members of smaller countries can refrain from insulting our military men.
 
I think we're getting a little far afield folks.

I can show similar pictures of children excited to hold firearms at equivalent open house type days at various western European countries if we really need to debunk the suggestion that the above pictures suggest a comfort with violence.

Otherwise it might be best to move on.
 
i was talking about europe in general. we're your security guarantee too you know.
Ukraine is part of Europe in general.
It has not received any security guarantees.

Thankfully, no US servicemen have died in combat operations to defend European NATO member states. Sadly, servicemen from European NATO member states, and Canada, have died in combat in Afghanistan, after a group based in that country attacked the United States.
But sometimes that is the price that is paid for solemn agreements to defend and assist your allies.
 
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Ukraine is part of Europe in general.
It has not received any security guarantees.
what are you talking about? i never mentioned ukraine, you did. Ukraine is not part of NATO.

Thankfully, no US servicemen have died in combat operations to defend European NATO member states. Sadly, servicemen from European NATO member states, and Canada, have died in combat in Afghanistan, after a group based in that country attacked the United States.
But sometimes that is the price that is paid for solemn agreements to defend and assist your allies.
yes i am aware that european countries too raise boys to be brave soldiers. and yes i am aware that all soldiers from every country are to be respected for the price they pay when negotiations dont work. That was kinda my whole point. Sorry if my statement was too ambiguous and you misunderstood my meaning. I was trying to be as brief as possible as bringing up the military culture is too off topic, imo.

add: just saw ending labels.. i thought Harriers were british only, so pretend these are all british soldiers to understand my sentiments


Source: https://youtu.be/xv1IV4QWmAw?t=4
 
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Sorry if my statement was too ambiguous and you misunderstood my meaning.
Maybe we were talking at cross-purposes. But any video with Harriers and Bonnie Tyler singing a power ballad makes me happy.
The US Marines were early adopters of the Harrier, and the second generation Harriers mid-80s on were largely developed by McDonnell Douglas.
 
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