Canandaigua Lake, NY, USA "Flat Earth experiment"

Rory

Senior Member.
With all the ballyhoo over Lake Balaton I've been reminded of this video: in it a guy shows a railing right down to the water from 5.33 miles away which 'should' have about 8 feet hidden by the earth's curve.


Now, as far as taking the photos goes, the methodology is good, the image is clear enough, and there aren't any issues with lasers or inaccurate measurements.

I mean, not that I think this is proof of anything - but in comparison to the Lake Balaton experiment, for those who want proof, this one seems much better to me.

And the real issue, of course, is that it's just one test, one little dabble, and shouldn't be used to reach a conclusion about anything. Real science, if it thought it could show something, would do this over and over again. Real science wouldn't leap to a conclusion. Real science would wonder if something else was afoot.

For us, we assume some sort of refraction, and aren't threatened by videos such as this, but are interested by what's going on.

In this case, as Mick shows below, it is indeed an effect of atmospheric refraction.
 
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Am I reading this correctly? Are people asking if variances in geoid height might be a factor in local earth curvature experiments?

Well gosh darn if I haven't been saying this for months. ;)

Also, are we still debating the "direct hit into the camera"? Perhaps we could focus on that and get some agreement.

As far as I can see, the fact that the camera can see the laser tells us nothing about the height of the beam at the point of the camera.

Sandor, do you agree?

Finally, I've been meaning to post this here for a while, and maybe should have done so by now. I believe it's relevant. It's a video attempting to show whether there's curvature across 5.33 miles of a lake in upstate New York.

The methodology is good. The outcome is apparently much more clear than the Lake Balaton experiment. And the conclusion is that the video maker was unable to find any evidence of curvature, which includes absolutely nothing in the way of "obscured amount".

I've been through it and it all looks good to me.


Does this lack of curvature across a lake mean that the earth is flat? No, of course not. It would be premature to come to that conclusion. Many more tests would need to be done, including at the same lake on many different days.

To even begin to call it 'science' I imagine one would probably want to spend at least a month repeating the experiment over and over.

Did you know that sometimes a huge amount of Corsica can be seen from Genoa, over 95 miles away, when - to borrow the phrase - "it should be hidden behind thousands of feet of curvature"?

Again, does this prove that the earth is flat? Or does it perhaps suggest that further analysis needs to be done?

I believe there's something quite pertinent to learn from these two genuine - and accepted - examples of apparent lack of curvature with regard to all this.
Looks good!
Pehaps these measurements are best done in a howling gale.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Again, does this prove that the earth is flat? Or does it perhaps suggest that further analysis needs to be done?
No, it means people need to be more careful when doing their experiments, and equally careful in accepting the claims of poorly done experiments.

Here we've got photos of a building from 5.3 miles away, and a view height of 2 feet.
8.9 feet hidden if we ignore refraction.

His photo:
20160907-073633-36v4s.jpg

The actual building from a distance.
20160907-075418-9w2sr.jpg

A comparison with reference lines. Draw the center line to move.
kershaw park compare A.jpg kershaw park compare B.jpg


Notice that below the roofline everything is oddly compressed. This would indicate localized refraction greatly more than standard atmposheric. Cooler water, warmer air, bends the light down and around the curvature of the lake surface - but most significantly for the lower portions.

And there's about ten feet of beach there from the waterline:
20160907-080353-1uhks.jpg
 
No, it means people need to be more careful when doing their experiments, and equally careful in accepting the claims of poorly done experiments.

Here we've got photos of a building from 5.3 miles away, and a view height of 2 feet.
8.9 feet hidden if we ignore refraction.

His photo:
View attachment 21186

The actual building from a distance.
View attachment 21187

A comparison with reference lines. Draw the center line to move.


Notice that below the roofline everything is oddly compressed. This would indicate localized refraction greatly more than standard atmposheric. Cooler water, warmer air, bends the light down and around the curvature of the lake surface - but most significantly for the lower portions.

And there's about ten feet of beach there from the waterline:
View attachment 21190
Ah but.. Your photo was taken from a higher point, so it would show more beach.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Ah but.. Your photo was taken from a higher point, so it would show more beach.
It's appears to be from a few hundred feet away, so the difference would be negligible. Remember the beach rises about ten feet from the waterline to the ground by the building.

And the compression of the beach is consistent with the compression of the building below the roofline (there would likely be more compression as you got closer to the horizon)
 
It's appears to be from a few hundred feet away, so the difference would be negligible. Remember the beach rises about ten feet from the waterline to the ground by the building.

And the compression of the beach is consistent with the compression of the building below the roofline (there would likely be more compression as you got closer to the horizon)
Google shows the water sloping upwards! It also seems to show a low wall.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
I'm not sure I would say the picture of the beach building is clear enough to deduce anything from. What I was more interested in was the railing. His picture from distance does appear to show the full railing, and some rocks beneath, so is basically right down to the water:

Screen Shot 2016-09-08 at 1.59.43 PM.png

Naturally we know we shouldn't see this much, but we do. Refraction must play a role.

I think the point is, sometimes photos across lakes show results that match flat earth theory, and I'm okay with that. But we shouldn't draw conclusions from just one or two 'experiments'.

Repetition. Considering other factors. Fine-tuning.

But, of course, all that's for those who think Balaton has 'proved' something (when, in actual fact, I think the video above is a better demonstration of "an apparent lack of curve").
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I had the wrong image in the comparison above, so here it is again, corrected.

I think it's pretty clear there's significant compression of the bottom the image, meaning refraction.

 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not sure I would say the picture of the beach building is clear enough to deduce anything from. What I was more interested in was the railing. His picture from distance does appear to show the full railing, and some rocks beneath, so is basically right down to the water:
Well I would not say that photo is any clearer. It's the same kind of thing, huge compression of bottom of image indicating refraction around the curve of the lake.
gazeboA.jpg gazeboB.jpg
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I think the refraction we are seeing here is localized looming. In the standard atmosphere, all distant images are looming, as the light bends towards the more dense air that's lower down.

The lake is colder than the air, and it cools the air directly above it. So there's a small temperature inversion. The colder air near the lake surface is denser, so bends the light around the curve even more than normal atmospheric refraction would. This accounts for the relatively narrow band of refraction close to the surface of the lake.

Prof Andrew Young says:
http://aty.sdsu.edu/~aty/mirages/mirsims/loom/loom.html
0.11°C/m is 0.06°F/foot
 

Rory

Senior Member.
It's the same kind of thing, huge compression of bottom of image indicating refraction around the curve of the lake.
Agreed. And that's why I think this is a such a salient lesson for those who took part in Lake Balaton.

Purpose of experiment:
To measure curvature, or lack of, across a lake.

Result of experiment:
No curvature observed (ie, no obscuration of a distant landmark).

Is the earth flat, then, or are there other factors?
Other factors. Refraction. Compression.

Can anything be concluded from this experiment?
No. Many further tests required.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Refraction is a big part of why the Flat Earth theory still has legs. The exact same thing messed up the old Bedford Level experiments:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Level_experiment
And more specifically the experiment here is nearly a mirror of one performed over 100 years ago:
Telephoto camera, six miles, two feet, low level thing visible.

A big advantage of out current situation is that the much higher quality of cameras available allow us to detect and identify the refraction zone.

Can anything be concluded from this experiment?
No. Many further tests required.
This might be true if you subscribe to the scientific solipsism of the flat earthers (where all of science has to be personally verified by subjective experiences). But I would take the experiment as another confirmation of decades of similar experiments which have consistently shown this effect.

Regardless though, repeating this particular test is not needed unless we are studying refraction. The real thing that is required is to repeat Wallace's version of the experiment, which is carried out sufficiently high above the waterline to avoid the problem of refraction almost entirely.
 

freedom4all

New Member
Hey guys does everyone understand this guy Mick is saying it's compression when really it just seems like HIS photo isn't even 5.33 miles aware and definitely wasn't captured via a FLIP PHONE extended to the lens of a telescope. Also his pics are at different angles. I am sorry for blasting this out ASAP but I am an objective truther and FLAT EARTH is something I've put nearly 1000 hours into I don't appreciate for everyone falling for this guy duping them maybe it's already been cleared up or maybe I'm wrong but this guy Mick is using these photos as proof when his initial disclaimer of the photo said "a distance" not "at that distance" or "5.33 miles". Please repond lol
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Hey guys does everyone understand this guy Mick is saying it's compression
I'm saying it's refraction, which in the case of an inversion like this compresses the bottom of the image.

It's very slight. YOu can put in this image URL:
https://www.metabunk.org/sk/Metabunk_2018-04-09_08-32-28.jpg


To the mirage simulator:
https://www.metabunk.org/mirage/

Then Set distance 5.3, target height 50, FOV 0.3, view height 2.
Metabunk 2018-04-09 08-37-43.jpg
Then click RELOAD.
Metabunk 2018-04-09 08-38-53.jpg

Fiddle around with the lower portion of the temperature profile. Basically a slightly inversion. Cooler water, cool air near the water, warming up, then cooling down with height.

Then turn off refraction to see the difference, and how the compression works.
Metabunk 2018-04-09 08-43-22.jpg
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Here I simply move the second dot up on the curve slightly to the right. It's a very small temperature difference.
canandaigua-lake-mirage-ScreenFlow.gif
 

Luc The Lurker

New Member
Are there any photos of statues of people or animals? It'll probably get the point of refraction over easier when a person is distorted into having tiny legs.

To me the buildings being compressed get the point across, but others will just claim your photos are at an angle or not aligned (as we saw earlier).
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Are there any photos of statues of people or animals? It'll probably get the point of refraction over easier when a person is distorted into having tiny legs.

To me the buildings being compressed get the point across, but others will just claim your photos are at an angle or not aligned (as we saw earlier).
It's tricky to use smaller objects, as they can be hard to see clearly at 5 miles. There are probably people in the OP image.

A building should be good, as it compresses irregularly in one direction. Mountains can also work. The Space Needle compression is pretty obvious. But I understand some people have a hard time understanding perspective, etc.
 
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