9/11: Is this photo consistent with a progressive collapse?

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I've got incontrovertible proof that the wtc complex was destroyed by a gang of malevolent, gone bad robot cats. They used to work for the government but the pay and conditions ...y'know.. the lead puss was called TC Kurtz

It's all in me computer - but you'll just have to take my word for it.
 
I'm talking about the physical events. I'm talking about the planes flying into the buildings, and the building collapsing. I think the NIST report is a very reasonable account of THAT. The physical events. Torture has nothing to do with that.

I'm not talking about who the hijackers were, and who funded them. That's a different topic, and not one that I'm familiar with, if you want to talk about that, then start a new thread.


Torture, you should know, is a very physical event.

This is in the 'Off Topic' section of your website because you put it there because you think it's off topic. It's off topic!
Are you going to ban me again? Or make up a new thread for me? Or - how about this - go away and argue elsewhere if you don't like the discussion?
 
But you can't actually point to the words that are wrong?


You missed the point, clearly. I apologise, I thought it was very clear. Yes, I can. All of the words are wrong until they release all the evidence.

And the fact is that, like it or not, protest or not, you do implicitly support torture. Deal with that and then we might move on.
 
I'm talking about the planes flying into the buildings, and the building collapsing. I think the NIST report is a very reasonable account of THAT.


You must stop making excuses for this. Yes, you might want to think it, but how can you describe it as reasonable when you haven''t seen all of it? The results of the report are depending entirely on the input data into the Nist computer. And Nist won't let anyone look at that data in case it 'jeopardizes public safety', under a law passed shortly before Nist published their findings.... Have you lost your sense of smell?
 
There's a lot of evidence in the report. The conclusions (about the impact and the collapse) based on that evidence seem very reasonable to me, even without seeing their exact models.

It would seem impossible that a comprehensive investigation could be performed without information from some areas involving national security. Your broader argument here is that we cannot trust ANYTHING in the report because SOME areas are based on classified data.

But what about the parts that are not based on classified data. I mean, for example NIST says:

6.14.2 After the aircraft impact, gravity loads that were previously carried by severed columns were redistributed to other columns
Content from External Source
Which is clearly, and undeniably, true.

So where exactly does it go wrong? Quote a bit you feel is wrong.
 
You must stop making excuses for this. Yes, you might want to think it, but how can you describe it as reasonable when you haven''t seen all of it? The results of the report are depending entirely on the input data into the Nist computer. And Nist won't let anyone look at that data in case it 'jeopardizes public safety', under a law passed shortly before Nist published their findings.... Have you lost your sense of smell?

But surely you are not basing your opinions solely on the lack of full disclosure? If that were so, you'd be saying it's maybe 50/50 or something.

You've been arguing for years that the building were too strong to collapse from the impact and fire alone. I'm arguing that they were not. My assessment is not reliant on the hidden data behind some aspects of the NIST report. I'm just saying that based on what I know, and the opinions of respected people in the field, that the NIST report seems reasonable.

I'm not basing my opinion on the NIST report. I'm just saying the NIST report seems reasonable.
 
From the closed (by Mick) thread, 911: An inside job?

Here's the bit where you implicitly endorse torture - after being asked the same question several times.


Q:
And this: But what about the official report? Have you read it and do you think it adequately reflects the truth of what happened?


A:
Yes I've read it. I think it's a very reasonable account of what happened that day.
 
There's a lot of evidence in the report. The conclusions (about the impact and the collapse) based on that evidence seem very reasonable to me, even without seeing their exact models.

It would seem impossible that a comprehensive investigation could be performed without information from some areas involving national security. Your broader argument here is that we cannot trust ANYTHING in the report because SOME areas are based on classified data.

But what about the parts that are not based on classified data. I mean, for example NIST says:

6.14.2 After the aircraft impact, gravity loads that were previously carried by severed columns were redistributed to other columns
Content from External Source
Which is clearly, and undeniably, true.

So where exactly does it go wrong? Quote a bit you feel is wrong.
C

Context, dear boy, context. Without it it's incomplete. I want to see the input data. National security? Piss off
 
My assessment is not reliant on the hidden data behind some aspects of the NIST report. I'm just saying that .... that the NIST report seems reasonable.

I'm not basing my opinion on the NIST report. I'm just saying the NIST report seems reasonable.

Some aspects? The aspects you speak of were the input data into the computer simulations they based their study on. It's pretty basic stuff. But you make excuses.
 
Here's a link to a version of the NIST report you can cut and paste from:

https://www.metabunk.org/files/NIST-NCSTAR1-909017_unlocked.pdf

Please copy and past the bits of section 6.14 you think are wrong. Page 193 of the PDF

Or if that's too much trouble, point out what's wrong with this (6.14.2)

After the aircraft impact, gravity loads that were previously carried by severed columns were redistributed
to other columns. The north wall lost about 7 percent of its loads after impact. Most of the load was
transferred by the hat truss, and the rest was redistributed to the adjacent exterior walls by spandrels. Due
to the impact damage and the tilting of the building to the north after impact, the south wall also lost
gravity load, and about 7 percent was transferred by the hat truss. As a result, the east and west walls and
the core gained the redistributed loads through the hat truss.


Structural steel and concrete expand when heated. In the early stages of the fire, temperatures of
structural members in the core rose, and the resulting thermal expansion of the core columns was greater
than the thermal expansion of the (cooler) exterior walls. The floors also thermally expanded in the early
stages of the fires. About 20 min after the aircraft impact, the difference in the thermal expansion
between the core and exterior walls, which was resisted by the hat truss, caused the core columns’ loads
to increase. As floor temperatures increased, the floors sagged and began to pull inward on the exterior
wall. As the fires continued to heat areas of the core that were without insulation, the columns weakened
and shortened and began to transfer their loads to the exterior walls through the hat truss until the south
wall started to bow inward due to the inward pull of the sagging floors. At about 100 min, approximately
20 percent of the core loads had been transferred by the hat truss to the exterior walls due to weakening of
the core, the loads on the north and south walls had each increased by about 10 percent, and those on the
east and west walls had about a 25 percent increase. The increased loads on the east and west walls were
due to their relatively higher stiffness compared to the impact damaged north wall and bowed south walls.

The inward bowing of the south wall caused failure of exterior column splices and spandrels, and these
columns became unstable. The instability spread horizontally across the entire south face. The south
wall, now unable to bear its gravity loads, redistributed these loads to the thermally weakened core
through the hat truss and to the east and west walls through the spandrels. The building section above the
impact zone began tilting to the south as the columns on the east and west walls rapidly became unable to
carry the increased loads. This further increased the gravity loads on the core columns. The gravity loads
could no longer be redistributed, nor could the remaining core and perimeter columns support the gravity
loads from the floors above. Once the upper building section began to move downwards, the weakened
structure in the impact and fire zone was not able to absorb the tremendous energy of the falling building
section and global collapse ensued.

Content from External Source
 
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Come now. I'm a little disappointed you still want to play semantic games. If I'm misrepresenting your position on something then SAY WHAT YOUR POSITION IS.

But it's a little hard to misinterpret things like:

No misrepresenting here - you just didn't read the question boy. My question went like this: Where?

That was in response to your statement

You've been arguing for years that the building were too strong to collapse from the impact and fire alone


So, to avoid any confusion: you said: You've been arguing for years that the building were too strong to collapse from the impact and fire alone and I asked

Where?

You answer:

Come now. I'm a little disappointed you still want to play semantic games.


And clearer still...

Where have I been arguing for years that 'the building were too strong to collapse from the impact and fire alone'?
 
On the internet.

Thats the impression I got from readin your posts. If it's incorrect, then feel free to explain what you actually think.
 
On the internet.

Thats the impression I got from readin your posts. If it's incorrect, then feel free to explain what you actually think.

So you presented an 'impression' as fact? Can you corroborate this? I'll save you the trouble - no, you can't. It's a bad habit of yours, presenting fabrications as truth. You shoud quit, or at least try.
The good bit then comes after the fabrication, where you follow up the lie with some item unrelated or absurd like: If it's incorrect, then feel free to explain what you actually think. When you already know it's incorrect because you made it up. Bizarre.

Anyway, I think you already know what I think on quite a few issues - I think my writing is fairly lucid; not clear enough for you though?
 
And despite your protests, what about your tacit approval of torture? A demonstrable, and demonstrated, fact. Why don't you deal with that?

Let's hear the question again: Given that you have endorsed the 911 Commission Report as 'very reasonable', and simultaneously explicitly state your objection to torture; how then do you square the fact that some of evidence used in the Report was garnered through torture?
 
All I said was

Yes I've read it. I think it's a very reasonable account of what happened that day.

That means that it sounds very plausible, specifically the parts involving the collapse of the buildings, which is what we were discussing.

This does not mean I endorse torture, in any way.

I'm starting to think you don't actually WANT to discuss the physics of the impact, fire, and collapse. You've been harping on this torture nonsense for months. It's like you are trying to avoid the obvious reality that the NISTS accounts of the collapses ARE quite reasonable.
 
So you presented an 'impression' as fact? Can you corroborate this? I'll save you the trouble - no, you can't. It's a bad habit of yours, presenting fabrications as truth. You shoud quit, or at least try.
The good bit then comes after the fabrication, where you follow up the lie with some item unrelated or absurd like: If it's incorrect, then feel free to explain what you actually think. When you already know it's incorrect because you made it up. Bizarre.

Anyway, I think you already know what I think on quite a few issues - I think my writing is fairly lucid; not clear enough for you though?

Apparently I don't know what you think, because whenever I try to say what I think you think, you ask where I got that idea.

Let me try again. I think you think the buildings were too strong to have collapsed simply as a result of the impact and the fire.

Is that right or wrong? If it's wrong, then what do you think?
 
I'm totally against torture. I don't think it's effective, and even if it was, I don't think it's something we should be doing. It's inherently evil, and detrimental to our standing in the world. I support the efforts to get the SSCI report released unredacted.

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/2012/04/26/tell-the-senate-release-the-real-book-on-torture/

I'm supportive all all transparency in government. However I recognize that many feel it would jeopardize national security, and I understand that there's going to be limits to the access granted to any public investigation.

Weasel words indeed.

Either you are 'totally against torture' or you make excuses and exceptions for it. Which is it?


From (http://www.johnpilger.com/articles/we-now-glimpse-the-forbidden-truths-of-the-invasion-of-iraq) an article entitled
We now glimpse the forbidden truths of the invasion of Iraq


6 April 2003

A man cuddles the body of his infant daughter; her blood drenches them. A woman in black pursues a tank, her arms outstretched; all seven in her family are dead. An American Marine murders a woman because she happens to be standing next to a man in a uniform. "I'm sorry,'' he says, "but the chick got in the way.''
Covering this in a shroud of respectability has not been easy for George Bush and Tony Blair. Millions now know too much; the crime is all too evident. Tam Dalyell, Father of the House of Commons, a Labour MP for 41 years, says the Prime Minister is a war criminal and should be sent to The Hague. He is serious, because the prima facie case against Blair and Bush is beyond doubt.
In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal rejected German arguments of the "necessity'' for pre-emptive attacks against its neighbours. "To initiate a war of aggression,'' said the tribunal's judgment, "is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.''
To this, the Palestinian writer Ghada Karmi adds, "a deep and unconscious racism that imbues every aspect of Western policy towards Iraq." It is this racism, she says, that has cynically elevated Saddam Hussein from "a petty local chieftain, albeit a brutal and ruthless one in the mould of many before him, [to a figure] demonised beyond reason".
To Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill, the Iraqis, like all Arabs, were "niggers'', against whom poison gas could be used. They were un-people; and they still are. The killing of some 80 villagers near Baghdad last Thursday, of children in markets, of the "chicks who get in the way'' would be in industrial quantities now were it not for the voices of the millions who filled London and other capitals, and the young people who walked out of their schools; they have saved countless lives.
Just as the American invasion of Vietnam was fuelled by racism, in which "gooks'' could be murdered with impunity, so the current atrocity in Iraq is from the same mould. Should you doubt that, turn the news around and examine the double standard. Imagine there are Iraqi tanks in Britain and Iraqi troops laying siege to Birmingham. Absurd? Well, it would not happen here. But the British military is doing that to Basra, a city bigger than Birmingham, firing shoulder-held missiles and dropping cluster bombs on its population, 40 per cent of whom are children. Moreover, "our boys" are denying water to the stricken people of Basra as well as to Umm Qasr, which they have controlled for a week. It is no wonder Blair is furious with the al-Jazeera channel, which has exposed this, and the lie that the people of Basra were rising up on cue for their liberation.

Since 11 September 2001, "our'' propaganda and its unspoken racism has required an imperial distortion of intellect and morality. The Iraqis are not fighting like lions, in defence of their homeland. They are "cowardly'' and subhuman because they use hit-and-run tactics against a hugely powerful invader - as if they have any choice. This belittling of their bravery and disregard of their humanity, like the disregard of thousands of Afghans recently bombed to death in dusty villages, confronts us with a moral issue as profound as the Western response to that greatest act of terrorism, the wilful atomic bombing of Japan. Have we progressed? In 2003, is it still true that only "our'' lives are of value?

These Anglo-American invasions of weak and largely defenceless nations are meant to demonstrate the kind of world the US is planning to dominate by force, with its procession of worthy and unworthy victims and the establishment of American bases at the gateways of all the main sources of fossil fuels. There is a list now. If Israel has its way, Iran will be next; and Cuba, Libya, Syria and even China had better watch out. North Korea may not be an immediate American target, because its threat of nuclear war has been effective. Ironically, had Iraq kept its nuclear weapons, this invasion probably would not have taken place. That is the lesson for all governments at odds with Bush and Blair: nuclear-arm yourself quickly.
The most forbidden truth is that this demonstrably militarist British government, and the rampant superpower it serves, are the true enemies of our security. In the plethora of opinion polls, the most illuminating was conducted by American Time magazine among a quarter of a million people across Europe. The question was: "Which country poses the greatest danger to world peace in 2003?'' Readers were asked to tick off one of three possibilities: Iraq, North Korea and the United States. Eight per cent viewed Iraq as the most dangerous; North Korea was chosen by 9 per cent. No fewer than 83 per cent voted for the United States, of which, in the eyes of most of humanity, Britain is now but a lethal appendage.

Only successful propaganda, and corrupt journalism, will prevent us understanding this and other truths.

You speak of 'Our' standing in the world? Some people worked this out years ago - this article was written in 2003.

I think this bit sums up your position quite well: Since 11 September 2001, "our'' propaganda and its unspoken racism has required an imperial distortion of intellect and morality.
 
All I said was



That means that it sounds very plausible, specifically the parts involving the collapse of the buildings, which is what we were discussing.

This does not mean I endorse torture, in any way.

I'm starting to think you don't actually WANT to discuss the physics of the impact, fire, and collapse. You've been harping on this torture nonsense for months. It's like you are trying to avoid the obvious reality that the NISTS accounts of the collapses ARE quite reasonable.

I've demonstrated - and anyone 'reasonable' would concur that it is not reasonable to withhold vital information relating to Nist's 'investigation'. It's what is known as 'a cover-up'. Ever heard that expression?
You are demonstrating very well that you are not reasonable.
 
All I said was



That means that it sounds very plausible, specifically the parts involving the collapse of the buildings, which is what we were discussing.

This does not mean I endorse torture, in any way.

No, it means that you tacitly approve of torture. The fact is inescapable and written here on these pages. It's ever so simple: you must dismiss the Commission report if you claim to be against torture.
 
Apparently I don't know what you think, because whenever I try to say what I think you think, you ask where I got that idea.

Let me try again. I think you think the buildings were too strong to have collapsed simply as a result of the impact and the fire.

Is that right or wrong? If it's wrong, then what do you think?

What I think is reflected in what I write and have written. It's not so hard to understand that, is it? It's only when you fabricate things that I pick you up on it - n'est pas?
 
Mick,

Do you think the 911 Commission Report is a 'very reasonable account' of the events of that day?

Are you aware that some of the evidence in that report was garnered through torture?

Are you for or against the use of torture to garner evidence?
 
lee, I'm absolutely against torture. Your continued instance that I am not is quite baffling.

I'm a debunker. I'm against bunk. The theory that the WTC was brought down with controlled demolition is full of bunk, so I debunk it. I've attempted to point out the bunk to you, but you slip and slide and avoid questions, and continually turn questions back with "where did I say that?" responses, and when I try to characterize your position, you accuse me of lying rather than simply explaining what your position is. Now you seem to want to bring in torture and America's imperialism as some kind of justification for the bunk.

But the bunk stands alone. The fact that America aggressively, disingenuously, and often covertly pursues its national interests does not alter the bunk.

You can't point out problems with section 6.14 of the NIST report, because it is a very reasonable account of what happened. So instead you simply dismiss the entire report because you claim torture was used to obtain some bits of information on other parts of the report.

If someone was tortured to obtain information about the planning of the plot, then that does not alter the temperature of initiation of creep deformation of steel, nor does it alter the distribution of loads via the hat truss, or any other of the many very reasonable descriptions in 6.14.

You are not helping anything here. You are not honestly trying to communicate.

Mull on that for a couple of banned weeks. If you come back, then try to lose the arguments from incredulity, and stop continually telling me I support torture because I think an account of events seems like a reasonable account.
 
The goal posts have not been moved one inch. I stand by that post 100 percent. So what's changed? What 'many different examples' have I been shown that I have not refuted with a sound argument?

Yeah they were. You specifically stated that the fires could not burn long enough or hot enough to weaken steel to the point of failure. I gave you two examples of steel buildings collapsing because of fire. One you ignored and the other you dismiss as it wasn't a 'high rise' building. Goal post moved. Other examples were provided by others in this thread in the form of pictures, vids and texts. Have you not read those posts?

And no, I haven't seen you give a sound argument for anything. All I have seen you do is deflect direct questions, change the subject and refuse to back up your stance with any proof whatsoever.
 
lee, I'm absolutely against torture. Your continued instance that I am not is quite baffling.



You can't point out problems with section 6.14 of the NIST report, because it is a very reasonable account of what happened. So instead you simply dismiss the entire report because you claim torture was used to obtain some bits of information on other parts of the report.

If someone was tortured to obtain information about the planning of the plot, then that does not alter the temperature of initiation of creep deformation of steel, nor does it alter the distribution of loads via the hat truss, or any other of the many very reasonable descriptions in 6.14.


You deliberately misunderstand because..what?

Look, if you endorse an official report after being asked, 'does it adequately reflect the truth?', with the words 'it's very reasonable', then you are saying that the report is an adequate reflection of the truth. Some of the information in that report was obtained by torturing detainees. So what? Do you cherry pick the parts of the report that were not obtained through torture and ignore the tortured confessions? The fact that the same people who produced the whole report also allowed evidence from tortured confessions puts the whole report in a very bad light. It should be dismissed and a new investigation launched - one that does not include torturing confessions out of human beings. Don't you agree?

you claim torture was used to obtain some bits of information on other parts of the report. You keep trying to imply that it's a claim I make, or that torture was 'allegedly' used....where have you been? Is this available proof not 'scientific' enough for you? You just can't be bothered to verify it? What? Wouldn't you like to verify that the report you endorse was, in part, obtained by tortured confessions? And how might that change your view of the rest of the report?

It is my firm opinion that if torture has been used to obtain information for an official report, the report is then wholly discredited and quite simply cannot be trusted if it condones the use of torture to gain evidence. Knowing this, how can you trust what it says?

You put me in mind of Hegel: If reality is inconceivable then we must contrive inconceivable concepts.

But a much better man said: Cynicism, the deification of history and of matter, individual terror and State crime, these are the inordinate consequences which will now spring, armed to the teeth, from the equivocal conception of a world which entrusts to history alone the task of producing both values and truth.

Hate to disappoint, but there's no maths.
 
Originally Posted by lee h oswald
Mate - take a step back - you reckon they were right not to test for explosives, the 911 report is just dandy, let's not mention the torture eh?, and that Newton's laws don't apply in the case of the world trade center - yes folks, that's right, and if you don't believe it I'll find it and repost it if he hasn't 'edited' it - he likes a bit of editing. Debunked? If you say so. Straws, matey, straws.

The post is still there:

Originally Posted by Mick
I think the continual bringing up of Newtons Laws is very interesting. But it's an area I don't like to go into, as it involves pointing out to someone that they don't understand what's going on. It's like with ice supersaturation in the chemtrail theory. 99.99% of the people who believe in chemtrails don't really understand ice supersaturation.

So, Newton's laws DO NOT APPLY HERE.

Why not? Because:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion

Content from external source:

Newton's laws are applied to bodies (objects) which are considered or idealized as a particle,[8] in the sense that the extent of the body is neglected in the evaluation of its motion, i.e., the object is small compared to the distances involved in the analysis, or the deformation and rotation of the body is of no importance in the analysis.

In their original form, Newton's laws of motion are not adequate to characterize the motion of rigid bodies and deformable bodies. Leonard Euler in 1750 introduced a generalization of Newton's laws of motion for rigid bodies called the Euler's laws of motion, later applied as well for deformable bodies assumed as a continuum. If a body is represented as an assemblage of discrete particles, each governed by Newton’s laws of motion, then Euler’s laws can be derived from Newton’s laws.





Should we use Euler's laws? No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler's_laws_of_motion

Content from external source:

Euler's laws of motion, formulated by Leonhard Euler about 50 years after Isaac Newton formulated his laws about the motion of particles, extends them to rigid body motion.[1]





The laws apply to rigid bodies. The plane is not a rigid body. The building is not a rigid body.

So what should we use? Whatever we use to describe what happened, it's an approximation of the underlaying motions of the molecules. But the best way of getting a mathematical description is the finite element method. This type of thing:





What's wrong with that?
Right. Let's deal with this once and for all.

Here's a link to a video lecture given by Professor Viken Kiledjian: http://freevideolectures.com/Course/2853/Newton's-Laws/5 its section is described thus: This clip gives an application of Newton's Laws to a person riding on an elevator which is accelerating up or down or going at constant speed.

It appears that either you are out of your depth or you are trying to present Newton's laws as irrelevant to the discussion out of a desire to discredit any discussion on that. Human beings are 'deformable' bodies and they are subject to Newton's laws, as are rigid ones. There is also another section of the same lecture that deals with a problem relating to a car; another deformable body. What you are presenting in error is an idealized interpretation of Newton's laws, and in so doing you are trying (for some unfathomable reason) to put out bad information to anyone passing through - nothing new there, I suppose. I think you should write to the professor and explain how he's got it all wrong, that Newton's laws don't apply in some of the figures he's using for his lecture. Please publish your letter and his reply - thanks.
Physics is the study of the physical universe - and human beings are a part of that universe. In all reference frames relevant to this discussion, Newton's laws do apply. Any 12 year old can understand: If you head-butt a lamp-post the force applied to your head and the post is exactly equal and opposite - it's Newton's third law - the fact that your head is more likely to deform than the post as a result is irrelevant, it just gets a bit more complicated to explain it in terms of particles. Your analysis is completely incorrect; Newton's laws do apply in this case as they always have. I look forward to reading Professor Kiledjian's reply to your correction.
 
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And I look forward to your correction of Wikipedia.

Newton's laws apply to simplified models of reality. They provide useful approximations of simple systems, like billiard balls, or even people in elevators if moving very slowly.

They tell you very little about what actually happens when two very large articulated deformable bodies collide at high speed. When your head hits the lamp-post, what do Newtons laws tell you about your arms and legs, or your eyeballs, or the light bulb at the top of the pole?

You brought up newtons laws claiming it looked like they had somehow been violated by the official story. They have not.
 
You deliberately misunderstand because..what?

Look, if you endorse an official report after being asked, 'does it adequately reflect the truth?', with the words 'it's very reasonable', then you are saying that the report is an adequate reflection of the truth. Some of the information in that report was obtained by torturing detainees. So what? Do you cherry pick the parts of the report that were not obtained through torture and ignore the tortured confessions? The fact that the same people who produced the whole report also allowed evidence from tortured confessions puts the whole report in a very bad light. It should be dismissed and a new investigation launched - one that does not include torturing confessions out of human beings. Don't you agree?

you claim torture was used to obtain some bits of information on other parts of the report. You keep trying to imply that it's a claim I make, or that torture was 'allegedly' used....where have you been? Is this available proof not 'scientific' enough for you? You just can't be bothered to verify it? What? Wouldn't you like to verify that the report you endorse was, in part, obtained by tortured confessions? And how might that change your view of the rest of the report?

It is my firm opinion that if torture has been used to obtain information for an official report, the report is then wholly discredited and quite simply cannot be trusted if it condones the use of torture to gain evidence. Knowing this, how can you trust what it says?

You put me in mind of Hegel: If reality is inconceivable then we must contrive inconceivable concepts.

But a much better man said: Cynicism, the deification of history and of matter, individual terror and State crime, these are the inordinate consequences which will now spring, armed to the teeth, from the equivocal conception of a world which entrusts to history alone the task of producing both values and truth.

Hate to disappoint, but there's no maths.

Why don't you address this one now?
 
Which parts of the report were obtained by torture?

How do they pertain to the impact, the fires, and the subsequent collapse?
 
Which parts of the report were obtained by torture?

How do they pertain to the impact, the fires, and the subsequent collapse?

Are you implicitly supporting torture again? It's irrelevant on a moral and ethical level which bits were obtained by torture - the fact torture was used at all should be sufficient to dismiss the whole for any decent human being. Khalid Sheik Mohamed was waterboarded 183 times to elicit his 'confession' to being the 'mastermind' of the 911 attacks. That information was included in the 911 Commission Report which you say is 'very reasonable'. Why can't you condemn what is obviously unacceptable?
 
Come on lee, you know I don't support torture. I condemn torture. You know I don't think that what I say is any kind of support for torture. I banned you before for ignoring this and continually asserting I support torture. Next time you do it, it will be a one year ban.
 
When your head hits the lamp-post, what do Newtons laws tell you about your arms and legs, or your eyeballs, or the light bulb at the top of the pole?

LoL. More straw. All the laws of probability and performance, and all known results of previous observation were broken by the collapse of three buildings that day. But you say it's all just as it should be. But what are the odds?
 
Come on lee, you know I don't support torture. I condemn torture. You know I don't think that what I say is any kind of support for torture. I banned you before for ignoring this and continually asserting I support torture. Next time you do it, it will be a one year ban.

I didn't assert anything, I asked you a question
 
LoL. More straw. All the laws of probability and performance, and all known results of previous observation were broken by the collapse of three buildings that day. But you say it's all just as it should be. But what are the odds?

What laws of probability?
 
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