1. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    I've found some backup to support my previous speculation that Epstein was treated in a routine manner. There are limited resources.



    In an article titled:
    ... there's a whole lot of outrage.

    I think this is the most balanced comment.
    CYA. That's exactly what I said. You give him special treatment.

    But if there's no staff and no money, how do you do that?

    The picture I think we're getting is of an underfunded prison with low morale among the employees and a lax administration. Procedures aren't followed, and no one even thought in terms of self-preservation.

    Do we blame:
    Super competent team of conspirators?
    Weary incompetence?

    In line with my Boring World Hypothesis, I choose weary incompetence as more likely. Decisively more likely.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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  2. The most important and high-profile inmate in the federal jail system in years, you'd think they'd be able to come up with the staff and money.

    I find this whole thing fascinating.

    [off topic removed]
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2019
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  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    RT Is happily fanning the conspiracy flames:
    Metabunk 2019-08-11 14-55-58.

    The "Op-Ed" is by Neil Clark, described as:
    I'm not sure what awards his blog has won, as it seems (in recent posts) almost entirely devoted to some feud he has with Oliver Kamm, a journalist at The Times.

    Oh wait, it won a "webblogaward" in 2008.
    Metabunk 2019-08-11 15-04-51.

    He was nominated for "Best UK Blog", and lost to a local art blog called "Created in Birmingham".

    RT frequently uses pundits with less than stellar background, and presents them as some kind of expert. For example they often have Gordon Duff, owner of pro-Russia the conspiracy site "Veterans Today" which promotes 9/11 and Sandy Hook conspiracy theories.
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  4. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    6:30 is a half hour. do we have confirmation from a reliable source he wasn't checked on? it doesn't take more than half an hour to kill yourself.

    IF he was trying to kill himself. I was reading about the first alleged attempt which happened right after he was denied bail. Stories say he was hoping for guarded house arrest and was willing to pay for it. His roomie at the time was an ex cop who killed 4 guys … so THAT's bizarre! Now i'm wondering if he paid the guy to help him pretend a suicide attempt, all with the goal that eventually he might be sent home to await trial.

    I wonder if it's easier to escape from a hospital stay if you are mega rich?

    he also earlier reported being "beat up and called a pedophile" (according to media reports anyway). But there's no hospital visit reported for any beat down that I can find.

    Maybe a buddy offed him.
    Maybe Hillary offed him. (I doubt Bill cares enough to off him)
    Maybe Trump offed him.
    Maybe a guy who doesn't like old guys sleeping with 15 year olds offed him.
    Maybe a guy who thought he was a classic pedophile offed him.
    Maybe he committed suicide.
    Maybe he faked a suicide and his old age tripped him up.
    Maybe he faked a suicide and God said "pfft".
    Maybe he faked a suicide and the guards forgot to check him at 6am and save him.
    Maybe one of his Illuminati buddies put a satanic suicide spell on him.
    Maybe he's not dead in that photo and he paid a bunch of people off. (although that scenario is pretty far fetched, too many people involved).

    The FBI has said they will continue the investigation looking into possible alleged accomplices, so seems like a victimless conspiracy topic to me.
  5. Yeah, I like that.

    The dude is a beast.

    The conspiracy theories were that the beast was hired to murder Epstein. But jeeze, this guy doesn't look like he would screw it up or need a second try.

    And he definitely didn't get a second try because he was reportedly transferred out sometime before 8/10.

    Which seems strange, because if The Beast actually saved Epstein from offing himself then he'd probably be a good cellmate to keep around.
  6. igoddard

    igoddard Active Member

    What should be happening right now is media being allowed to see the cell, top to bottom, video taped for the public to see. Full transparency. What should be happening now, and should have been after the first incident, is media interviewing on video other prisoners, his last cell mate, prison staff and warden, emergency medical personnel who were on the scene, etc. There should have been a video interview of Epstein by the media after the first incident wherein he could have been asked what happened. It's crazy that at least a public quote from him after the first incident doesn't seem to exist.
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  7. Agent K

    Agent K Active Member

    Well, Trump's Justice Department is in charge of federal prisons, so the buck stops with Trump.
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  8. Agent K

    Agent K Active Member

    Did his lawyer say anything about it? Did he say that it was a suicide attempt or that his cellmate strangled him?
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  9. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    that's kinda like saying the Connecticut state police should have video taped all the dead bodies and the schoolrooms. [edit add: and release them to the public so we could do our own armchair investigations]. I don't think investigations work that way. I realize this is a slightly different situation, but not sure it qualifies as "the public has the right to know Epstein's private business".
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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  10. NYC medical examiner completes autopsy on Jeffrey Epstein’s body, says cause of death still pending

    "New York City’s chief medical examiner performed an autopsy on the body of Jeffrey Epstein Sunday, but said that the cause of death was “pending further information at this time.”


    "“The ME’s determination is pending further information at this time. At the request of those representing the decedent, and with the awareness of the federal prosecutor, I allowed a private pathologist (Dr. Michael Baden) to observe the autopsy examination. This is routine practice.”"

    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  11. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    The BBC posted an article yesterday about Epstein conspiracy theories:


    Nothing massive to add to the above, other than mention of some tweets from Rudy Giuliani:
  12. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    it's "A" tweet

    Is there some reason Giuliani is the only tweet that interested you in that article? Or are you pointing out that Giuliani was under the impression he was on suicide watch?
  13. jarlrmai

    jarlrmai Member

    i think the kneekjerk assumption of a lot of people was that he was on suicide watch given his profile and earlier attempt.
  14. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Although less probable than a simple mistake, it is not improbable that this is a plain old conspiracy involving Epstein bribing guards to not watch, etc.
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  15. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    There is: I figured in order to share the link with interested parties I'd need to include something in the article to comply with the "no-click policy". And Giuliani's CT-tinged tweet was something I hadn't seen mentioned yet.
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  16. Joe_the_Joe

    Joe_the_Joe New Member

    I'd say we're almost definitely looking at administrative incompetence as our baseline explanation, to expound upon ZW, from the Anchorage Daily News:
    Then later from E.O. Young (national president of the Council of Prison Locals C-33):
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  17. DavidB66

    DavidB66 Member

    At the risk of appearing ghoulish (or too knowledgeable on the subject) there can be misunderstandings of how hanging and/or strangulation work. There are three possible types of effect:

    1. Breaking the neck and severing the spinal cord.
    2. Asphyxiation by restricting the supply of air to the lungs, either by blocking the mouth and nose (e.g. with a plastic bag) or by crushing the trachea.
    3. Restricting the supply of blood to the brain by compressing the main blood vessels in the neck.

    Type 1 is associated with the traditional 'long drop' hanging, as used in official executions, for example in the hangings of German war criminals by Albert Pierrepoint. It requires a 'drop' of at least 5 feet (see the official British guidelines here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Table_of_Drops ) so I guess it is unlikely to be found in a suicide in a prison cell.

    Type 2 is conceivable. People do sometimes suffocate themselves with a plastic bag. Crushing the trachea is less plausible in a suicide, as it would require a lot of physical force and will power. However, there is also the possibility that what starts as an attempt at self-suffocation ends as asphyxiation by blood, vomit or other fluids. Death could even be accidental (unintended by the victim.)

    Type 3 is much easier than might be supposed. It probably accounts for most cases of death by so-called 'auto-erotic asphyxiation'. Compression of the blood vessels in the neck is not especially painful of even unpleasant. I can speak from personal experience, having practised Judo for a while. So-called strangleholds (shimewaza) are a standard part of Judo training and competition (for adults). An experienced Judo player will usually know when a shimewaza is taking effect by a 'singing in the ears' and submit before losing consciousness, but the hold can take effect very quickly and the player may 'choke out' almost instantly. There is a good example of this in a women's Judo contest here, with commentary by two experts:

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHrl9-s0oeA
    It is said that a hold may be maintained after loss of consciousness for up to 30 seconds without permanent ill effects, but presumably if continued indefinitely it could be fatal. There are no recorded cases of this in Judo contest, but similar holds used in law enforcement are sometimes fatal. Any form of ligature round the neck can be tightened to the point where the blood supply is restricted, and if the victim is in a position where the compression is maintained after losing consciousness, they will probably just drift away. I don't find it implausible that someone with access to any strong piece of cloth could achieve this for themselves.
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  18. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

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  19. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Kind of puts things in perspective. Sounds like they were not used to dealing with suicidal inmates on a regular basis.
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  20. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    Article from 2003

    This and many other articles give the impression of a man who is highly intelligent, analytical - a mind that most be engaged and challenged. A man who strives to achieve the highest social status and who only associates with those of highest status. A man lacking in empathy but with a superficial charm - so superficial that he hardly bothered to hide the superficiality. A man who was engaged with other people to achieve certain goals, but ultimately very private.


    In a cell such as this he's lacking in privacy, devoid of purpose, unable to run his own life, and alone with his thoughts. He is now of extremely low status; an untouchable. He has the realistic awareness that this is now his permanent situation. I speculate he would be in a state of constant negative rumination. There is nothing to engage his mind; which for him would be excruciating. His mind turns to the analytical conclusion that suicide is the best way out; and further turns to an obsessive analysis of how it can be achieved.

    Given this and the lax conditions in the facility, I think the simplest explanation - a well planned suicide with materials on hand and no outside help or encouragement - is more than adequate.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  21. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    if he was in the same type cell as Bernie Madoff, you wouldn't really need obsessive analysis. Although I do agree, if he hung himself by "kneeling toward the floor", as the NYPost says, then legitimate suicide is the most plausible answer.


  22. Svartbjørn

    Svartbjørn Senior Member

    Except for the fact that Epstein was specifically marked as suicidal and placed on suicide watch. Suicide watch, almost always includes removing anything and EVERYTHING that a person could kill themselves with, be it via hanging, slicing the wrists etc. There are even special bed clothes to prevent someone from creating a noose.

    Every department, every prison and jail in the US has a very specific set of rules and guidelines set up for suicide watch. Whether or not it happens very often or not (referring back to @Mick West 's post) doesnt play a role. Safety of detainees are the responsibility of those responsible for the detaining. The fact that the jail or prison (whichever he was in) was understaffed -shouldnt- have mattered. If guards are walking a post or a rotation, they're supposed to make sure that they're doing the prescribed suicide checks as directed.. in this case every 30 min. If they're walking rounds, they're supposed to adjust their rounds to make sure they hit that mark AND make it random so that the individual being watched cant plan out a routine.

    Whats needed is a review of the holding facilities suicide watch policies/procedures/guidelines and then to find out why they werent being followed. Further to that, itll need to be discovered why Epstein wasnt moved to another facility if the one he was at was so understaffed that he couldnt be watched appropriately. All of this SHOULD be brought out in the DOJ investigation, but they're going to have to be more transparent than diamond and not redact -anything- when the report's released.
  23. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    But he was not on suicide watch at the time of the suicide.
  24. Bruno D.

    Bruno D. Senior Member

    But as I understood it, he was not on suicide watch.


    I think the real incompetence here is having him be taken out of the suicide watch so soon. That was a gross failure and needs to indeed be investigated and solved.

    Even though #TrumpBodyCount or #ClintonBodyCount seem so compelling and "exciting", It was probably, again, just human fallibility that caused all this.
  25. igoddard

    igoddard Active Member

    So the odds that Sandy Hook was a staged event is comparable to the odds that a dead guy in a prison was killed?!

    What is the case for the public not knowing what the jail cell is like? For not knowing what other prisoners and EM staff may have seen or heard? For not knowing Epstein's account of the first incident? His privacy? Really?!
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  26. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    because it is an active investigation. SH eventually released the investigation report ( a year later) with witness interviews etc. Not sure the feds release their reports once the investigations are over... but either way it is an active investigation so they don't release such things.

    I'm sure the media can try to interview EM staff but while possible, it is unlikely they will comment on an ongoing investigation. Granted conspiracy theories are becoming more spotlighted to normal people ( I didn't even know there was a conspiracy world for a year after SH), and Las Vegas chose to be proactive regarding a few of them.. but why would anyone in law enforcement care if there are conspiracies about him being murdered? Esp when the conspiracies are going to continue whether they release information or not.

    Are they going to release 12 hours of footage outside his cell so we can see if anyone entered? no.
    And even if the jail decides to release photos of the cell are we gonna believe it is the actual cell? no.
  27. Svartbjørn

    Svartbjørn Senior Member

    Odd... my understanding was that he was still under suicide watch. I hadnt seen any sources (until you guys posted them) that he'd been taken off. Thanks for the info!
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  28. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    and just for the record, this logic is backwards. SH conspiracies endangered live children and traumatized survivors.. pretty damn bad. There were threats called into schools, major harassment of towns people and town workers, stalking of live children, traumatizing and harassment of grieving families.

    There are no victims in Epstein conspiracy theories.
  29. Joe_the_Joe

    Joe_the_Joe New Member

    Discussing odds without supporting evidence is speculation. As it stands we have a paper trail indicating the following:
    -The Bureau of Prisons is or was recently short 4,000 - 5,000 people, with the result that the Metropolitan Correctional Center was operating at 60-70% of it's staffing capacity.
    -As a result of operating at a sub-par staffing capacity, the two officers assigned to his block were both working overtime, and one of them was not normally a correctional officer.
    -Correctional officers at the facility often work double shifts.
    -The cell was not being checked every half hour.
    -He apparently did not have a cellmate.
    -Suicide attempts at the facility are rare and irregular.
    -Mr. Epstein's alleged previous attempt was 3 weeks prior, and his suicide watch status was removed two weeks prior to his death.
    -Mr. Epstein's death appears to be by hanging, and this appears to be plausible.

    Any more exotic explanation of his death besides suicide is going to require a direct paper trail, pending results of the investigation. Now matter how "likely" one may think it was that he was murdered, it's not worth a plug nickel without.
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  30. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Someone who isn't me was on suicide watch once: it was in a jail, rather than a prison, so somewhat different circumstances, but also perhaps some similarities. The cell was completely bare. The light was on constantly (behind bars, set in a high ceiling). There were no bed clothes or furniture or furnishings, and the only clothing given to said person was a thin gown made of tissue. The reason for being placed on suicide watch was because, during a discussion with the jail counsellor, this person was asked if they'd ever thought about suicide and, casually and nonchalantly, as one would with a friend, they'd said, "sure, hasn't everyone?"

    There was no 'watch', per se: a guard sat at the end of the hall but couldn't see into the cell. He may have come down and checked in a few times over the duration.

    After twenty-four hours, said person was taken off suicide watch and put back amongst bed sheets and other accoutrements that might function as ropes. Once the box was ticked and protocol followed, it seems the initial concern had passed. I guess people can't stay looked over forever.
  31. igoddard

    igoddard Active Member

    News is that his lawyers requested he be taken off suicide watch.

    I've not seen news about what his lawyers have to say about the first incident, but that request suggests they didn't think suicide was an issue. There are several media sources saying he said the first incident was someone trying to kill him. For example, here's a tweet by a Washington Post reporter...

    Of course if he was trying to kill himself but failed, you might expect he'd lie and say it was someone trying to kill him to increase the chance that he avoids suicide watch and can try again.
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  32. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    and it kinda makes you look guilty.of the crime
  33. igoddard

    igoddard Active Member

    This is El Chapo's cell in MCC...



    The video footage of him appears to be taken from a location inside the cell near the ceiling. So there appears to be a video camera mounted in the cell that monitors its interior. The video at the ABC site shows El Chapo moving around, and he appears to intentionally present himself to the camera, face forward looking up at it, as if that might be part of a routine check he's been instructed to allow.

    His cell is reportedly 3 doors down from Epstein's.

    So a cell in the same unit where Epstein died appears to have a video camera inside it.
  34. igoddard

    igoddard Active Member

    The SH conspiracy theory is fantastically absurd on its face. The public assuming Epstein might have been murdered, given what little is publically known, is not absurd on its face. The a-priori probability that a dead man found in prison was murdered is not infinitesimally small.
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  35. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It also had a bunk bed, which this cell does not.

    And people have killed themselves in cells with video camera in them. Here's an example where a man made a noose, and practiced for hours without anyone noticing it.

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DBkY2ilCwg
  36. Bruce Barket, the lawyer for Epstein's SHU cellmate, Tartaglione, described the cell as having no windows, standing water, mold, insects and rodents.

    Possibly facing the rest of his life in these types of conditions, suicide probably seem like a pretty good idea.
  37. igoddard

    igoddard Active Member

    Curious historic case in MCC that shows how an apparent suicide (attempt in this case) might not be what it seemed to be. Back in 2002, Guards working for the same MCC Special Housing Unit beat up a prisoner and then tried to cover up their abuse by faking that the prisoner tried to commit suicide. They even fashioned a noose and hung it from window bars in the prisoner's cell. Here's an excerpt from a 2007 report after the guards admitted their hoax:

    Further details in this report:

    Their scam was busted by surveillance camera in a hallway that captured their horrendous beat down of the prisoner.
  38. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    what does that have to do with you being 'kept in the loop' of the federal investigation into his death?
  39. Maybe things weren't so bleak. What about Double Jeopardy?

    This article "Acosta’s Sweetheart Deal Likely to Foreclose Epstein’s SDNY Prosecution" raises the possibility that Epstein very well may have had a legal light at the end of the tunnel...so to speak.

    Would that light have been bright enough to keep a man like Epstein from offing himself?
  40. Joe_the_Joe

    Joe_the_Joe New Member

    Short answer: No. Long answer: Even if he won on Double Jeopardy, he was still facing serious charges that fall completely outside of the scope of his plea deal, including new victims, racketeering, and money laundering. The other problem is that the plea deal actually has a lot of legal baggage attached to it that would have had to have been settled in court and that may not have turned out in Mr. Epstein's favor.

    On another note, we are currently assuming in this discussion that his presumed suicide would have been the result of despairing from his criminal charges, as opposed to despairing as a result of being subject to the scrutiny of his partners-in-crime. Without further evidence, we cannot even determine that.