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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-suicide.html

    There were already a range of conspiracy theories swirling around Epstein, ranging from the older style theories about satanic child sacrifice, up to the more modern QAnon theories of a valiant attempt by Trump, et al., to uncover a deep state adrenochrome harvesting operation.

    Bot Sentinel reports #ClintonBodyCount and #EpsteinSuicide as trending topics pushed by troll bots.

    Metabunk 2019-08-10 09-02-17.


    The Clinton Body Count theory seems most popular

    Source: https://twitter.com/Jekklez1980/status/1160222645499113473


    Suspicious seems to cross political lines here, with various people speculating that he was killed not by "the Clintons" but by Trump, to help various powerful allies, possibly including Prince Andrew.

    Then there's QAnon supporters, who normally laud Trump, who think Trump did it for personal reasons.

    Source: https://twitter.com/BryaninSeattle2/status/1160222792228339714


    The most obvious explanation is that Epstein killed himself because he was looking at spending the rest of his life in jail as a child sex offender. This leads to a "let it happen" conspiracy theory, where someone arranged for him to not be on suicide watch, knowing he'd tried to kill himself before.

    This is very high profile, and will attract a lot of attention. Expect the theories to grow in complexity in the coming months.
     
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  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    And of course there are the theories about his death being faked.

    This by Shepard Ambellas, an Infowars guy.
    https://www.intellihub.com/sex-traf...y-but-is-he-really-dead/#.XU7onAa7SKQ.twitter
     
  3. Agent K

    Agent K Active Member

    It's not just Infowars and QAnon.

    "Conspiracy Theories Erupt After Jeffrey Epstein’s Death"
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/conspiracy-theories-erupt-after-jeffrey-epsteins-death
    I don't think Scarborough was blaming Russian interference, he was probably making a comparison to Sergei Magnitsky.

    NY Times columnist Paul Krugman tweeted, "If we were living in a paranoid fantasy universe, I would be very suspicious about the Epstein suicide, even about whether it was really suicide. And you know what? The Epstein case itself shows that we *are* kind of living in a paranoid fantasy universe"

    Source: https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1160191016726609920
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  4. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I think Trump and Bill deserve whatever they get for hanging out with such skeevy people. It's not like any of this stuff is provable or debunkable. I think his girlfriend used witchcraft to kill him so she didn't have to suffer anymore embarrassment. Debunk that!
     
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  5. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-dies-by-suicide-report.html

    I think it's reasonable to assume that there are limited or severely limited resources - the special cell - compared to need. It follows that there are many cases in which a prisoner should be on suicide watch but is not. There must be an official, or unofficial but commonly followed, protocol for deciding who is put on the top of the list and who drops off the list. A type of triage. If Epstein were not getting special treatment it's reasonable to assume that he was one of these prisoners who should have been on suicide watch but was not, because there was someone who was even more at risk.

    The most boring explanation is that Epstein was not given special status. According to my Boring World Hypothesis - the world is boring therefore the most boring explanation is most likely to be true - this is the most likely explanation. Therefore the prison officials are not guilty of CYA - giving the most important prisoner special treatment. It bit them.

    There may have well have been a prisoner more at risk, who according to the CYA rule should have been bumped because he was a less important person. If that less important person had committed suicide the world would never know.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  6. derwoodii

    derwoodii Senior Member

    Coroner forensic toxicology and the jail CCtv records in time should reveal some helpful info..
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Twitter was instantly awash in "that's not Epstein".

    Granted, this is a quick and dirty comparison that could surely use more in depth measurements and was originally just to satisfy my own curiosity, but then I decided to share:


    Source: https://youtu.be/UwLxIEIi5Yc


    The "alive" image I'm comparing to the "dead" image to has been flipped (and is 5 years old), so I'm actually comparing the old right side of his face to the recent left side.

    Still looks like him to me, though.

    Curious how, and impressed, the photographer, William Farrington, managed to be at the right place at the right time.

    Also curious about the 1.5 pixel aspect ratio on the NYP's image(s), don't see that too often on the web.
     
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  8. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    We're looking at a Rigor Mortis face.

    There are other changes of course. It's a dead body for Pete's sake.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  9. igoddard

    igoddard Active Member

    Nice work Getoffthisplanet! It's him for sure. I'm wondering if there are sings that his head took a severe blow. There seem to be indications of blueish discoloration and possible deformation at and around the ear.

    [​IMG]

    The area just above his ear looks a bit caved-in.

    It's a ghastly thing to wonder, but can we find higher-resolution copies?
     
  10. igoddard

    igoddard Active Member

    I think the cavity I'm seeing above the ear (specifically forward/above the Tragus), may be caused by the neck collar pushing tissue upwards, over-inflating the area forward (further above) the ear, thereby creating the cavity just forward, or above (given the photo's orientation), the Tragus (ear anatomy below).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    But there looks like a possible linear bruise across Epstein's cheekbone.
     
  11. igoddard

    igoddard Active Member

    There are reports that he was on "suicide watch" and it may have been terminated just before he died. So here's some background on suicide watch, which the Bureau of Prisons calls its suicide prevention program.

    The Federal code @ https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/552.40

    From a Bureau of Prisons document linked below...

    https://www.bop.gov/policy/progstat/5324_008.pdf
     
  12. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    I think this mark in front of the ear is a mark from whatever it was Epstein used to form the noose. It seems more like a cord or thin rope than cloth.

    [​IMG]

    There is a lot of post mortem lividity on his face, which may mean he was face down, which indicates a partial hanging (feet not on floor). There are many scenarios including kneeling on the bed. So the position could be different than in these two photos below.

    Two examples of how the mark on Epstein's face in front of the ear could have been made.


    These are sad and awful, so I'm posting links. You decide if you want to see.

    The loop of the noose; if in front of ear instead of behind. It's doable if he was face down.
    https://i.imgur.com/oLFQCc7.png

    More likely. The knot of noose.
    https://i.imgur.com/SE8TJ8V.png

    The knot could make both the linear mark in front of the ear and the damage to the front part of the ear - the tragus.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  13. Thanks. I'm certainly not an expert in suicide by hanging, but I would imagine there is a lot of violent thrashing around. So, perhaps that's what caused what looks facial bruising?

    Went looking for images of the Metropolitan Correctional Center, specifically the Special Housing Unit Epstein was reportedly held in.

    DailyMail has this illustration of the MCC SHU, but they've been using for it years, so not sure if it's relevant:


    MCC_SHU_dailymail.
    Source

    And ABC News has an article and video about "El Chapo's" time in the MCC SHU.

    MCC_SHU_el_chapo.

    Source

    Aren't these SHU's explicitly designed to prevent suicide by hanging?
     
  14. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    More likely post mortem lividity, also known as Livor Mortis.

    https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences-and-law/law/crime-and-law-enforcement/lividity
     
  15. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    If there really are exposed bars all one needs is a short length of cord or rope. There are a number of ways to perform a partial hanging with face down.

    In this scenario we have to ask where that cord came from.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    the NYTimes says the suicide watch was terminated July 29th (I don't want to waste my free articles by clicking the link sorry)
    upload_2019-8-11_10-30-36.


    That big court file was just unsealed on Friday, but maybe he just liked to choke himself to get high (or because he's a perv) and he's too old for that stuff.
     
  17. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    articles say the jail called in emt at 6:30am. and the photo was at 7:30 am. they are still trying to resuscitate him in that photo, so it's unclear if he is actually dead (probably) in that photo or how long he was dead. his forehead is pretty white, and it is summer. perhaps a lot of coloring is just a tan. ??
     
  18. Since he was no longer under suicide watch would he have been allowed regular bedding rather than nothing or a "suicide blanket?
     
  19. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    That ain't a tan. It could be cyanosis and Epstein may have been showing a flicker of life.

    My guess is that someone at the prison started CPR on a dead body before EMT showed up, and once begun CPR legally had to be continued until examination by a physician.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  20. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    https://www.newsweek.com/epstein-dead-jail-cell-sex-trafficking-suicide-1453635

    My emphasis. If I'm right and Epstein's face had marks of post mortem lividity, EMT would have refused to initiate treatment as this is recognized as an obvious sign of death: because lividity doesn't become obvious for a significant time after death. But someone more naive or scared initiated CPR at the prison.



    https://www.dallasnews.com/business...cused-sex-trafficking-reportedly-kills-prison
    No heart beat. One can live only a short time after cardiac arrest. They just happened to find him very shortly after the heart stopped?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  21. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The Alive/Dead ear comparisons are rather misleading. The shape of ears varies when you are standing or laying down, and if you are smiling, and if you are dead the face is completely slack, and there's no blood pressure.

    [​IMG]
    5

    And of course hanging yourself can have a significant effect on the postmortem shape of your ears.

    Here's a quick experiment I did, just comparing sitting while grinning to laying own while (relatively) relaxed.

    Metabunk 2019-08-11 09-27-18.

    And here's the relative positions.
    Metabunk 2019-08-11 09-31-25.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  22. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    Interesting but Epstein's face and ear looks much more damaged.

    [​IMG]

    But I agree this is speculative. As already mentioned by member "igoddard," the collar pushing up the flesh may be the major factor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  23. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    I guess you could wrap up a sheet into a tight twisted cord.
     
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  24. I think the general shapes are close enough to indicate a match, though.

    On the left is your proned ear photo compared to Epstein on the gurney. On the right is Epstein's 5 year year old right ear compared to yesterday's photo:

    ez.com-resize.
     
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  25. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I think him having the same face indicates a match :)
     
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  26. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

  27. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I don't think all of it is tan, but he has a baseball cap line on his forehead. hard to believe he'd have that obvious line of pale forehead from just lack of oxygen.
     
  28. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    Please re-read what post mortem lividity is.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. igoddard

    igoddard Active Member

    Mick's test show the skin folding that creates an apparent cavity forward of Epstein's ear. But the neck collar that we can just see is pushing tissue upwards too, inflating the area forward of the ear so magnifying the fold and resulting cavity.

    [​IMG]
     
  30. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    i'm aware of what post mortem lividity is thanks.
     
  31. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    We've been getting into (our typical) micro-analysis/speculation.

    But what about the President of the United States implicitly charging a sitting Senator and/or an
    ex-President of conspiracy to commit first degree murder?

    Is this what we've come to?

    And what particular conspiracy is in the lead now?

    Clintons did it.

    Trump did it.

    Cabal of Pedophiles did it.

    Saudi Arabians did it.

    Prince Andrew did it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  32. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    It looks as if #TrumpBodyCount was created to fight fire with conspiratorial fire. There are serious, semi-serious and satirical charges against Trump. An example of satire: People are referring to Donald Trump Jr. as "Trump's alleged son." If you repeat it often enough it will become his official nickname. Clearly in response to Trump's habit of giving derisive nicknames to opponents.

    A more serious remark that's coming up frequently is:
    On his Twitter account, Trump Jr is feuding with just about anyone, including Lance Armstrong. He's promoting his own conspiracy theory against Twitter:

    I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in that he probably doesn't understand what "trending" really means.


    I can understand the impulse behind #TrumpBodyCount, but the end result is just an increase in the conspiratorial and Us against Them mindset
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  33. Agent K

    Agent K Active Member

    Why do news stories say that Epstein "was found unresponsive in his cell Saturday morning" without mentioning if he was hanging by the neck?
    Previously, he was "found injured with marks on his neck." No mention of a noose. Did he choke himself with his hands or what?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  34. Agent K

    Agent K Active Member

    A former inmate said there are no exposed bars.
    "Former MCC inmate: There’s ‘no way’ Jeffrey Epstein killed himself"
    https://nypost.com/2019/08/10/former-mcc-inmate-theres-no-way-jeffrey-epstein-killed-himself/
     
  35. Agent K

    Agent K Active Member

    The screenshot doesn't look like the illustration. There are no bars before the door.
     
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  36. Agent K

    Agent K Active Member

    "Epstein questions deepen after report that jail broke rules"
    https://www.apnews.com/b609668da05c4ac5bbc9aa50c9e6b6d2
     
  37. Joe_the_Joe

    Joe_the_Joe New Member

    Just to point it out, aside from the "exotic" theories of high-ranking assassination and the mundane theory of incompetence, there is (ought to be?) also the moderately mundane theory of internal vigilantism. That is to say, staff on hand may have killed him or allowed him to die by his own/ an inmate's hands for being a pedophile. Such treatment of pedophiles is popularly considered common in the lower tiers of the justice system, though I have yet to see a firm statistic to back that popularity up, and of course in this particular case it is but mildly plausible speculation.
     
  38. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    a cellmate probably means bunk beds. so those pics may not be at all accurate.

    if the fbi is investigating then we will eventually (maybe) get more details.
     
  39. Agent K

    Agent K Active Member

    "There’s no video of Jeffrey Epstein’s apparent suicide: sources"
    https://nypost.com/2019/08/11/theres-no-video-of-jeffrey-epsteins-apparent-suicide-sources/
     
  40. I'm not defending the man, but Epstein isn't technically a pedophile.

    Based on their reported ages, "he had probably brought him 70 to 80 girls who were all 14 and 15 years old.”

    That put's him in the ephebophile range.

    I don't know. What's worse a pedophile or ephebophile?

    The New York Post claims he was "found unresponsive in his cell in the Special Housing Unit of Manhattan Correctional Center".

    I assumed the SHU meant solitary confinement, but I guess not.

    U.S. Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Prisons Special Housing Units

    "Special Housing Units (SHUs) are housing units in Bureau institutions where inmates are securely separated from the general inmate population, and may be housed either alone or with other inmates."