Intercept Article on David Grusch's Past - Allegations of a Smear Campaign

"Claims about David Grusch's Medical Records", as in what medical issues they refer to, appear not to be false - we have the evidence: what's in the FOIA response.
I disagree. They characterized the alleged leak as comparable to a break-in at a psychiatrist, suggesting that "medical records" refer to a medical professional's file, and implying that a HIPAA violation might have occurred. But none of that is true.

"what medical issues they refer to": the FOIA report refers to two incidents of alleged alcohol abuse and suicidal ideations. Grusch refers to PTSD, Grief and Depression, and claims these issues caused the two incidents. Is his claim true? Probably, but we have no evidence.
 
That would be congaing though a minefield:

Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts
...
(b) Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts.

(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of any other crime, wrong, or act is not admissible to prove a person’s character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.
Content from External Source
-- https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_404
https://law.indiana.edu/instruction/tanford/b723/06char/T06.pdf
SmartSelect_20230810-102344_Samsung Notes.jpg

SmartSelect_20230810-102907_Samsung Notes.jpg
 
I disagree. They characterized the alleged leak as comparable to a break-in at a psychiatrist, suggesting that "medical records" refer to a medical professional's file, and implying that a HIPAA violation might have occurred. But none of that is true.
That depends if we interpret "Medical Records" as titular, or merely as descriptive, police records that make reference to mental health issues are formal records, and they contain medical commentary, so they are in part medical records.

"what medical issues they refer to": the FOIA report refers to two incidents of alleged alcohol abuse and suicidal ideations. Grusch refers to PTSD, Grief and Depression, and claims these issues caused the two incidents. Is his claim true? Probably, but we have no evidence.
Grusch has referred to those specifics historically, yes, but that doesn't mean that every time he refers to medical records he's referring to only those things. If a FOIA request had brought up a school report of concussion after being hit in the head by a stray baseball instead of these adult alcohol-infused incidents, he would probably also word that as a leak of his medical records. Broad brushes cover many things.

Incidentally (and this isn't directed at you, it's just an aside that has been nagging me as I read this thread) whilst he may be factually wrong to assert there was a *leak* of medically-related records (better?), I still think that he was justified in considering that as a fairly likely possibility, because it's somewhat surprising (at least to me) that such information would be extractable through FOIAs. Rallying against him because he voiced this now-proved-false conclusion, which has happened on this thread, seems more like beating a man when he's down, and thus distasteful, than the mere dispassionate desire to build up a more thorough picture of the lead actor in this drama. He jumped to one false conclusion as an instantaneous reaction given limited facts. We all do that - it's probably Starlink. Coming to false conclusions after studying the subject matter for years is a different matter entirely.
 
He jumped to one false conclusion as an instantaneous reaction given limited facts. We all do that - it's probably Starlink.
The difference is that the Starlink example doesn't involve the reputation of someone else.

The original claim implied that The Intercept had stolen Grusch's medical files and was planning to expose his PTSD to blacken his character. There was no evidence of it, and it's not what later happened. Grusch could probably have found that out by simply returning their call.

The FOIA request was for police reports, not for medical records.
 
Incidentally (and this isn't directed at you, it's just an aside that has been nagging me as I read this thread) whilst he may be factually wrong to assert there was a *leak* of medically-related records (better?), I still think that he was justified in considering that as a fairly likely possibility, because it's somewhat surprising (at least to me) that such information would be extractable through FOIAs. Rallying against him because he voiced this now-proved-false conclusion, which has happened on this thread, seems more like beating a man when he's down, and thus distasteful, than the mere dispassionate desire to build up a more thorough picture of the lead actor in this drama. He jumped to one false conclusion as an instantaneous reaction given limited facts. We all do that - it's probably Starlink. Coming to false conclusions after studying the subject matter for years is a different matter entirely.

Regarding the first bolded bit: Grusch jumped the gun. It's the swiftness and broadness (the intelligence community) of the leakage accusation that bespeaks of a conspiratorial mindset. Not the fact that some manner of 'leakage' would have constituted one reasonable hypothesis along with a FOIA request by an online paper known to specialize in FOIA requests.

Regarding the second bolded bit: On my part I'm very much not rallying against him or anyone else. I'm merely seeing, and demonstrating, a pattern of behaviour of seeing and expecting reprisals for his whistleblowing activities.

Given the context of ufology and the evidence of Grusch's consistent statements regarding USG retaliatory actions, for us at MB to identify this pattern does not require much of an inductive leap nor undue speculation.
 
The difference is that the Starlink example doesn't involve the reputation of someone else.
Disagree. "It's starlink" is "they're wrong", and that could affect their reputation. And I don't think that reputations are relevant anyway. In particular to this schock-journo [Edit: did I mean "shock" or "schlock" there, I'm not so sure now, so it stands uncorrected] , given his childish nick-changing pranks.

The FOIA request was for police reports, not for medical records.
Already addressed above.
 
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Owner of The Intercept is Pierre Omidyar:
Article:
Through his purchase of influence over the daily flow of information to American media consumers, a dizzying array of connections to the national security state, and a media empire that shields him from critical scrutiny, Omidyar has become one of the world’s most politically sophisticated data monarchs.


Article:
Billionaire eBay founder Pierre Omidyar has partnered closely with many of the U.S.-funded outfits that fulfill the role the CIA used to play during the Cold War, supporting opposition media and civil society in countries targeted for regime change. However, Omidyar has also sought state-of-the-art design solutions from a shady U.S. government national security consulting firm with a myriad of ties to the hawkish D.C. foreign policy establishment.
Article:
So he has tight connections to the IC.
 
Owner of The Intercept is Pierre Omidyar:
Article:
Through his purchase of influence over the daily flow of information to American media consumers, a dizzying array of connections to the national security state, and a media empire that shields him from critical scrutiny, Omidyar has become one of the world’s most politically sophisticated data monarchs.


Article:
Billionaire eBay founder Pierre Omidyar has partnered closely with many of the U.S.-funded outfits that fulfill the role the CIA used to play during the Cold War, supporting opposition media and civil society in countries targeted for regime change. However, Omidyar has also sought state-of-the-art design solutions from a shady U.S. government national security consulting firm with a myriad of ties to the hawkish D.C. foreign policy establishment.
Article:
So he has tight connections to the IC.

So says The Grayzone.

But what do people say about The Grayzone, and its tight connections with the Kremlin?

A fringe website,[23] it is known for misleading reporting[24] and sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes.[1][15][25] The Grayzone has denied human rights abuses against Uyghurs,[29] posted conspiracy theories about Venezuela, Xinjiang, Syria and other regions,[30][31] and posted pro-Russian propaganda during the Russian invasion of Ukraine.[28]

Grayzone writers such as Max Blumenthal and Aaron Maté acted as briefers on behalf of the Permanent Mission of the Russian Federation to the United Nations at UN meetings organised by Russia.[32][33][34][35]
Content from External Source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grayzone
 
As worded, these seem to contradict each other. (Had you used "feeling" instead of "believing" I'd not have raised this, because, as you mention it's the SNS that's unnecessarily active (again, your terminology was not as accurate as it could have been, it's not all of the ANS, else they'd have permanent boner too - the PSNS is part of the ANS too.).)
Yes you're correct. I could have worded this better. It is more of a feeling than a belief since it's their body that is in a fight or flight state while the mind tries to figure out what is going on. It is usually fleeting, lasting for a few seconds or so, and it is more about the way that a person's body is reacting to a stimulus like a nightmare than a person's mind having a break from reality. Thanks for pointing out the slippy terminology on my end.
 
So says The Grayzone.

But what do people say about The Grayzone, and its tight connections with the Kremlin?

A fringe website,[23] it is known for misleading reporting[24] and sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes.[1][15][25] The Grayzone has denied human rights abuses against Uyghurs,[29] posted conspiracy theories about Venezuela, Xinjiang, Syria and other regions,[30][31] and posted pro-Russian propaganda during the Russian invasion of Ukraine.[28]

Grayzone writers such as Max Blumenthal and Aaron Maté acted as briefers on behalf of the Permanent Mission of the Russian Federation to the United Nations at UN meetings organised by Russia.[32][33][34][35]
Content from External Source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grayzone
That's a very gray zone indeed...

But there are other sources, even closer to the source (The Intercept):
Article:
The Intercept is a left wing news website financially supported by eBay founder Pierre Omidyar. It was co-founded in 2014 by left wing journalist Jeremy Scahill, lawyer and journalist Glenn Greenwald, and documentary filmmaker Laura Poitras. In 2020, Greenwald resigned from the publication citing the outlet’s refusal to run an article critical of Democratic Presidential nominee Joe Biden.1

It frequently reports the details of top secret national security information provided to it by sources within the U.S. intelligence community. These sources are frequently breaking the law by providing this information.

Two controversies since 2014 have called into question the content and professionalism provided by the reporters. In February 2016, Juan Thompson, a reporter at the Intercept, was fired after it was discovered he had been inventing both sources and made-up quotes attributed to the fake sources. 2 In 2017, an Intercept national security reporter was accused by two former sources of carelessly revealing their identities after they had provided him with top-secret information or damaging testimony regarding the U.S. government’s covert operations. 3


So it's clear The Intercept gets information from the IC.

Don't be naïve, this clearly has its roots in the IC. Or do you really believe some lone journalist with a personal grudge against Grush went through all the trouble of finding out where Grush lived in the past and FOIA every sheriff's department in his past neighborhoods just to find some mud to throw at him? In that case, said journalist has some major psychological problems of his own to deal with...
 
The law may be different in the US, but in the UK it is permissible to introduce 'bad character' evidence against a defendant if they themselves attack the character of a witness against them. I once sat on a jury and was surprised when the defence counsel read out the criminal record of his own client. Apparently he was pre-empting the prosecution doing it, because his client's defence involved accusing a key witness of complicity in the crime.
 
that's because noone ever stays on topic anymore :)

This is a debunking site. The claim that needs debunking is that 1. medical records 2. were leaked 3. by the IC.

(of course it wouldnt have needed to be debunked if OP waited for the Intercept article came out. I kinda doubt the OP posted this thread so y'all could discuss how his drunk episodes and suicidal thoughts should impact how his claims are viewed. But maybe that was his intention. ?? )

I didn't post this as a thread. I posted it as a comment in another thread which was subsequently moved and made into its own post here. Title choice was also not mine.
 
That's a very gray zone indeed...

But there are other sources, even closer to the source (The Intercept):
Article:
The Intercept is a left wing news website financially supported by eBay founder Pierre Omidyar. It was co-founded in 2014 by left wing journalist Jeremy Scahill, lawyer and journalist Glenn Greenwald, and documentary filmmaker Laura Poitras. In 2020, Greenwald resigned from the publication citing the outlet’s refusal to run an article critical of Democratic Presidential nominee Joe Biden.1

It frequently reports the details of top secret national security information provided to it by sources within the U.S. intelligence community. These sources are frequently breaking the law by providing this information.

Two controversies since 2014 have called into question the content and professionalism provided by the reporters. In February 2016, Juan Thompson, a reporter at the Intercept, was fired after it was discovered he had been inventing both sources and made-up quotes attributed to the fake sources. 2 In 2017, an Intercept national security reporter was accused by two former sources of carelessly revealing their identities after they had provided him with top-secret information or damaging testimony regarding the U.S. government’s covert operations. 3


So it's clear The Intercept gets information from the IC.

Don't be naïve, this clearly has its roots in the IC. Or do you really believe some lone journalist with a personal grudge against Grush went through all the trouble of finding out where Grush lived in the past and FOIA every sheriff's department in his past neighborhoods just to find some mud to throw at him? In that case, said journalist has some major psychological problems of his own to deal with...
influencewatch.org is a front for The Heritage Foundation. Not reliable. Have you asked yourself why they hide behind such a noble and neutral sounding name?

As to your last claim. A public search with a county clerk of courts isn't any trouble. It takes minutes. I have done that while doing real estate property searches and looking for local contractors to do work as a first look for red flags. It would be nothing for someone pissed off at Grush for any reason to get the information. Not ethical or helpful for countering bunk but easy none the less.
 
I disagree. They characterized the alleged leak as comparable to a break-in at a psychiatrist, suggesting that "medical records" refer to a medical professional's file, and implying that a HIPAA violation might have occurred. But none of that is true.

"what medical issues they refer to": the FOIA report refers to two incidents of alleged alcohol abuse and suicidal ideations. Grusch refers to PTSD, Grief and Depression, and claims these issues caused the two incidents. Is his claim true? Probably, but we have no evidence.
From The Intercept:
Article:
The man “could be violent, very strong,” the report notes, adding that he might be suffering from PTSD. “Sometimes makes these threats when drunk,” the report continues. “Has never harmed himself.”

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On top of that, only the 2018 incident refers to alcohol, not the 2014 one (see next post).
 
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Also of note: The FOIA request was about ALL records related to Grush from 2013-2023:

Screenshot 2023-08-10 144721.jpg

The only thing found was his 2018 'suicide statement' after he drank too much, which was probably related to PTSD.
The 2014 incident was only a call related to suicide worries, but the call was cancelled a minute later:

Screenshot 2023-08-10 144935.jpgScreenshot 2023-08-10 144935.jpg
 
I don't understand why all this is such a big deal. The records were obtained by FOIA, in what I think is a slimy move (typical of the media). The guy had PTSD... it seems he was properly treated and is better now. Good for him.

If this changes anyone's mind on Grusch, or thinks it discredits him, then I think you're being unreasonable. Coulthart needs to shut his face. He is only making things worse for Grusch.
 
A public search with a county clerk of courts isn't any trouble. It takes minutes. I have done that while doing real estate property searches and looking for local contractors to do work as a first look for red flags. It would be nothing for someone pissed off at Grush for any reason to get the information. Not ethical or helpful for countering bunk but easy none the less.
It's clear from the article they had contact with "a former colleague of Grush". Guess where such 'former colleague' would be employed. It's crystal clear this story came from the IC:

Article:
A former colleague of Grusch’s expressed shock that he retained his clearance after the 2014 incident, which was also documented in public records obtained by The Intercept.

“I think it’s like any insular group: Once you’re in, they generally protect their own,” said the former colleague, who asked not to be named because they feared professional reprisals.


It could have been an individual action or an orchestrated one, but the source of this is the IC.
 
It would be a leap if publicly available evidence thus far did not consistently show that he does:

Grusch's DOSPR-cleared statement dated 4 April 2023:

Article:
Once I started digging, interviewing witnesses, asking senior government mentors of mine what was really going on here, unexpected doors started to open and others were brutally shut in my face, Many powerful officials were unhappy I was asking these questions. . .


Grusch interview with le Parisien, 7 June 2023:

Article:
Int.: You state in your complaint that you suffered reprisals after alerting the Department of Defense Inspector General in 2021. What is this about?

D.G.: They tried to attack my security clearance, they made allegations of misconduct against me, things of that nature. To protect the ongoing investigation on my behalf, I can't give too many details. I think in a few months I'll be able to.

Int.: Do you fear for your life?

D.G: At one time, there were threats of this nature.


Grusch's opening statement at the congressional hearing on 26 July 2023:

Article:
I made the decision based on the data I collected, to report this information to my superiors and multiple Inspectors General, and in effect become a whistleblower.

As you know, I have suffered retaliation for my decision. But I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead to a positive outcome of increased transparency.


Grusch's words during the congressional hearing on 26 July 2023:

Article:
The whistleblower former intelligence official David Grusch says he faced “very brutal and very unfortunate” retaliation after he went public with his allegations.


In light of the above pattern of experiencing reprisals (whether subjective or objectively true), Grusch's statement to NewNation on 9 August 2023 summarized by newcaster (at 0.29), and since shown to be inaccurate, would be consistent with it and demonstrates misplaced suspicion:

I see this kind of thing a lot in the jail I work in. Some individuals perceive a lot of actions by the guards towards them as targeted, retaliatory, and purposefully cruel.

Sometimes interpreting behaviors directed at oneself as hostile is a sign of disordered thinking (paranoid personality disorder for instance).

Sometimes interpreting behaviors directed at oneself as hostile are justified because the behaviors are hostile (which unfortunately is commonplace in jails and prisons, many guards are cruel and do torture inmates in various ways).

Sometimes interpreting behaviors directed at oneself as hostile is not a sign of disordered thinking but a justifiable lens by which to interpret certain behaviors and events given a past history of hostile behaviors and actions being directed towards oneself. Even if the current action is not actually hostile but you interpret it as such, you're doing so because of a history you've had with law enforcement that has taught you to reasonably expect this kind of behavior by them towards you. Homeless individuals are one example of this group. There are countless homeless folks I talk to who consistently relay to me how often they are harassed by police everywhere they go. There are some homeless folks who actually have a standing order from the police to be arrested on sight, no matter if they're actually committing a crime or not, because of their past history of being considered a "public nuisance". They are literally arrested in public any time they're seen by an officer and brought in for bullshit charges like "trespassing" or for being a public nuisance in general. This happens, I know this happens because the police officers themselves tell me that's what they do. So individuals like these, with this kind of history, are justifiably going to interpret most of what officers do as hostile in some manner, even if in specific circumstances the behavior was not actually hostile and was simply interpreted as such.

Grusch does have a history of making claims about receiving retaliation from his higher ups. He's made extremely strong claims like "administrative terrorism".

We have no idea what the details of this alleged retaliation are. They certainly have been taken extremely seriously by the inspector general, something I doubt would have happened if he's just alleging retaliation when there's nothing really there.

But at any rate. We have this latest instance where an allegation has been made that his medical records have been leaked. He and Coulthart were wrong. As Deirdre pointed out, he may have been justified in reaching that conclusion based on what the Sheriff told him even if it happened to be ultimately wrong.

We can interpret his behavior as someone prone to making false positive assessments about nefarious intent and behavior towards him.

Or

Someone who has suffered from nefarious and retaliatory behavior against him and is therefore justifiably interpreting non-nefarious behavior as retaliatory because of a history of being on the receiving end of such things, and he just happens to have gotten this one wrong because of the lens by which he's viewing the world now.

Because we don't know what has actually happened between him and the intelligence community regarding the alleged retaliation claims, we can't just use this one specific case of him getting things wrong to retroactively color all previous claims of retaliation against him as probably also being false positives.

There have been far too many cases of people making all sorts of paranoid sounding claims and me interpreting them as possible delusional and disordered thoughts that have eventually turned out to actually have been completely correct, even when some of those claims ended up being misinterpretations of perfectly normal and benign behaviors. Some people accurately perceive patterns of ill intent towards them (homeless folks ,people of color) , and some people inaccurately perceive those same patterns despite no history of any such behavior ever actually taking place.

Without sitting down with the person one on one it's notoriously difficult to accurately assess which of the two camps a person falls into. If I could sit with Grusch for an hour one-on-one I could fairly accurately tell you if he's one or the other. But I absolutely cannot do so based on the basis of so little publicly available information.

As someone who is properly qualified to diagnose and assess people I've learned the critical importance of restraint and of hastily rushing to judgment on the basis of very little information, let alone without ever even speaking to the person myself. I've been wrong enough times to have learned that lesson and it's a worthwhile one to keep in mind for mental health professionals and non-clinicians alike.
 
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From The Intercept:
Article:
The man “could be violent, very strong,” the report notes, adding that he might be suffering from PTSD. “Sometimes makes these threats when drunk,” the report continues. “Has never harmed himself.”
SmartSelect_20230810-151533_Samsung Notes.jpg
That's hypothetical, and was written before they saw him, I think.
On top of that, only the 2018 incident refers to alcohol, not the 2014 one (see next post).
Yes. Doesn't mean alcohol wasn't involved.
 
We have no idea what the details of this alleged retaliation are. They certainly have been taken extremely seriously by the inspector general, something I doubt would have happened if he's just alleging retaliation when there's nothing really there.
I don't understand why this retaliation wasn't mentioned in the IC IG complaint, if it occurred.
 
I don't understand why this retaliation wasn't mentioned in the IC IG complaint, if it occurred.

When asked about it, his response has typically been "I can't disclose those details due to an ongoing investigation". Wouldn't that imply they were mentioned to the IG but just not publicly? I know there have been two separate complaints filed, with the second complaint being the one about retaliation, if I'm remembering correctly, no?
 
It's clear from the article they had contact with "a former colleague of Grush". Guess where such 'former colleague' would be employed. It's crystal clear this story came from the IC:

Article:
A former colleague of Grusch’s expressed shock that he retained his clearance after the 2014 incident, which was also documented in public records obtained by The Intercept.

“I think it’s like any insular group: Once you’re in, they generally protect their own,” said the former colleague, who asked not to be named because they feared professional reprisals.


It could have been an individual action or an orchestrated one, but the source of this is the IC.
I have no doubt the journalist was fed information to facilitate the FOIA requests, but this feels more personal than professional. The nature of the information that would have been provided to allow the journalist to fish in that stocked pond probably came from a source closer to the situation than officialdom. Ex-wife, maybe.
 
As someone who is properly qualified to diagnose and assess people I've learned the critical importance of restraint and of hastily rushing to judgment on the basis of very little information, let alone without ever even speaking to the person myself. I've been wrong enough times to have learned that lesson and it's a worthwhile one to keep in mind for mental health professionals and non-clinicians alike.

Thanks for sharing about the valuable work that you do, and your helpful insights gained in the course of your work. I appreciate and respect your services to those that are all too often forgotten, frequently judged and/or entirely sidelined in our society.

Like I said, if we look at case Grusch in isolation from the ufological context (say inmates or the homeless), his pattern of expecting retaliation could indeed be based on either subjective imagined experience or objective experience of actual threat. You laid out both options articulately as I did earlier far more tersely if you read me carefully.

However, we can't ignore the context. If Grusch had been actually threatened and retaliated by the DoD due to the reasons he claims -- i.e. the risk he poses to 'they' by exposing USG encounters with aliens -- we'd have to accept a far more extraordinary hypothesis to explain an otherwise somewhat ordinary phenomenon of a paranoid reaction (expecting IC health smear 'leaks') without any solid evidentiary priors of alien visitations in the whole of human history.

Whereas there's tons of evidentiary priors of people becoming devout members of communities of believers, coming to believe their 'enemy' (pick any zealous faith-based community with their own peculiar enemy myth) is upon them whilst interpreting all reality through a lens skewed by a strong confirmation bias whereby everything that happens conveniently supports said enemy mythology.

And whenever the reality flies blatantly against their given mythology -- say, the great alien reveal or the second coming of Christ don't happen as predicted -- and all the hoopla fizzles out, a new date is simply given to patch up the failed prophecy whilst the faith of the truest of believers is successfully restored.

The doubting Thomases leave the fold and join Metabunk. :p
 
WRT his PTSD what did this stem from? I gather he was in the military but I can't see where he served, I saw something mention Indonesia, but I assume he served in either Iraq or Afghanistan which is where he got the PTSD, but I can't see mention of this?

EXCLUSIVE: Marine vet breaks 14-year silence to make astonishing claim that his six-man unit saw a hovering octagonal UFO being loaded with WEAPONS by unmarked US forces who threatened them at gunpoint while serving in Indonesia in 2009​

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-astonishing-claim-six-man-unit-saw-UFO.html

Of course this is the Daily Mail so pretty worthless, but does mention a place where he served and from the 10 or so articles I've seen about him online its the only info I have managed to find
 
This whole Grusch story is nauseatingly predicatable. He makes some big claims, presents zero evidence whilst the usual suspects elevate him to the dizzy heights of UFO stardom. Now we get lots of noise, claim and counter claim about the guy, all whilst keeping his name and face in the media. All the while, not a single shred of evidence will be presented to back up his outlandish claims. But it doesn't matter, he's already a house hold name and so free to write a book, do the podcast circuit, make a pretty penny. Predictable, boring and sad!
 
In light of the above pattern of experiencing reprisals
that' s not a pattern, that is all the same incident block he is talking about repeatedly.* This current incident makes 2.

*and when the IG decides about his complaint, we'll know if he was correct or just being overly sensitive.
 
John Greenewald hosted a "Space" on Twitter and Ken Klippenstein joined in. I haven't listened to the entire thing yet, so apologies for not being able to provide relevant timestamps and quotes. Klippenstein's interview starts around the 52:15 mark though.


Source: https://twitter.com/blackvaultcom/status/1689435036914003968?s=20

Yikes.

Timestamp: 58:11

"I was getting bits and pieces from different people. You know how these intel people are vague, they'll be like 'look into his background'. They'll be like, um, I'm trying to think of how to say this...in a way that's like, rigorous, multiple people told me to just look at any run ins with law enforcement in the past. And in was vague."
 
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*and when the IG decides about his complaint, we'll know if he was correct or just being overly sensitive.
Only if Grusch releases the IG investigation report. They are not public domain documents or releasable through FOIA.

edit--I should have specified IG investigation reports generated by a personal complaint to the IG.
 
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WRT his PTSD what did this stem from? I gather he was in the military but I can't see where he served, I saw something mention Indonesia, but I assume he served in either Iraq or Afghanistan which is where he got the PTSD, but I can't see mention of this?


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-astonishing-claim-six-man-unit-saw-UFO.html

Of course this is the Daily Mail so pretty worthless, but does mention a place where he served and from the 10 or so articles I've seen about him online its the only info I have managed to find

Don't know why the website isn't letting me copy and paste text, but here's what The Debrief says:

https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-retrieved-non-human-craft/

1691678416883.png


Also, gentle reminder that PTSD is far more common than people recognize. Most folks associate the diagnosis with combat veterans, but PTSD is far more prevalent than just the military. Almost everyone I work with in the criminal justice system has some form of PTSD. The common sources are childhood trauma, sexual/physical/emotional abuse, neglect, street violence, witnessing the death of someone under traumatic circumstances, and a million other sources. I'd guess it's very likely that Grusch's PTSD is combat related, but it can also stem from other life experiences that we don't know, nor are entitled to know about.
 
Thanks for sharing about the valuable work that you do, and your helpful insights gained in the course of your work. I appreciate and respect your services to those that are all too often forgotten, frequently judged and/or entirely sidelined in our society.

Like I said, if we look at case Grusch in isolation from the ufological context (say inmates or the homeless), his pattern of expecting retaliation could indeed be based on either subjective imagined experience or objective experience of actual threat. You laid out both options articulately as I did earlier far more tersely if you read me carefully.

However, we can't ignore the context. If Grusch had been actually threatened and retaliated by the DoD due to the reasons he claims -- i.e. the risk he poses to 'they' by exposing USG encounters with aliens -- we'd have to accept a far more extraordinary hypothesis to explain an otherwise somewhat ordinary phenomenon of a paranoid reaction (expecting IC health smear 'leaks') without any solid evidentiary priors of alien visitations in the whole of human history.

Whereas there's tons of evidentiary priors of people becoming devout members of communities of believers, coming to believe their 'enemy' (pick any zealous faith-based community with their own peculiar enemy myth) is upon them whilst interpreting all reality through a lens skewed by a strong confirmation bias whereby everything that happens conveniently supports said enemy mythology.

And whenever the reality flies blatantly against their given mythology -- say, the great alien reveal or the second coming of Christ don't happen as predicted -- and all the hoopla fizzles out, a new date is simply given to patch up the failed prophecy whilst the faith of the truest of believers is successfully restored.

The doubting Thomases leave the fold and join Metabunk. :p

Do you think it's possible he uncovered actual special access black project programs that the congress is not being properly informed about and which are not receiving the kind of oversight that is legally required?

Meaning, suppose the Grusch story were identical to the one he's making, but whatever programs he's stumbled on have nothing to do with aliens or anything extraordinary, but rather some special access military technology related stuff that is not under the appropriate oversight. For whatever reason, the people he talked to have told him it's alien related where in fact none of it is. So he comes forward trying to blow the whistle on these programs even though he's technically incorrect about what they're about. Would that not also possibly provoke retaliation, if true?

The point I'm making is, I don't think there are only two options here. You seem to be saying that retaliation would only make sense if he actually has stumbled upon alien-related stuff. But since the likelihood of alien-related stuff is so low, that means the likelihood of retaliation actually taking place is also fairly low, so it's more likely that he's overly sensitive and overreacting and misconceiving what is actually taking place.

But another possibility is that retaliation could be taking place because he's stumbled upon something worth blowing the whistle on that is not alien-related even though he thinks it is. And retaliation would make sense against him to keep the lid closed on whatever he's actually stumbled upon.

It's all speculative obviously, but we have so little information about what's taken place behind the scenes that it seems overly hasty to attribute to him a conspiratorial mindset that isn't based on any real retaliation against him without knowing what has happened. The first thing I do when folks start talking to me about paranoid and conspiratorial type of stuff is to ask them for specific examples of what they're talking about. Some folks are able to give me clear and detailed examples of obviously immoral and cruel behavior towards them by officers and guards that are consistent with other claims I've heard from fellow inmates and things I've seen the guards to myself. In these cases I can see that the person isn't just overly paranoid but actually experiencing the things they say they are. The more conspiratorially minded folks who may be suffering from paranoid personality disorder, schizophrenia, or just an irrational conspiratorial mindset in general are rarely ever able to give me any concrete or specific examples of anything. They'll cite hunches, feelings, "just-knowing", "the way they look at me", "the way they walk around me", and really slippery things of that nature in support of their claims. It's fairly easy to tell who's misperceiving the world vs. who's actually experiencing these things by just talking to them. But we can't do that with Grusch, we don't have concrete examples yet. So it's better to just wait it out and see what happens when more info comes out.
 
John Greenewald hosted a "Space" on Twitter and Ken Klippenstein joined in. I haven't listened to the entire thing yet, so apologies for not being able to provide relevant timestamps and quotes. Klippenstein's interview starts around the 51:17 mark though.


Source: https://twitter.com/blackvaultcom/status/1689435036914003968?s=20


wow ken does not come off good in that interview. i cant really quote (even with the transcript) what he says regarding an explanation as he is really babbling. (not sure if he is just super nervous and guilty feeling, or if he is on speed)

My take: his intentions were bad.
he says he put out a twitter during hearing "I had a tweet that said if you have good or bad stuff about him, like,.."
He looked up addresses on Nexus "I just looked up his house and Nexus and it gave me the address."

from twitter transcript:

1:05 ken: I think I just described it as law enforcement. I can't remember how I described it. But it's not like I was trying to hide it. And then when Ross called me, I tried to explain to him I was like, what? These aren't private. This is like totally public. And but he was kind of like, it sounds like he was in a hurry or something like, OK, OK, understood. And then he. And then he just hung up and that was.
right and so i thought that from my saying that these are public you'd understand that this is like open record stuff but apparently he didn't and to his credit he did he did correct it when

1:08 audience: what's the value of reporting on mental health struggles?
ken: being a drunk is a mental health struggle?

audience: do you feel like this information kinda invalidates his testimony?
ken: if the guys a drunk? yea it makes me a bit suspicious
 
Timestamp: 58:11
"I was getting bits and pieces from different people. You know how these intel people are vague, they'll be like 'look into his background'. They'll be like, um, I'm trying to think of how to say this...in a way that will sound rigorous, multiple people told me to just look at any run ins with law enforcement in the past. And in was vague."
Content from External Source

So this proves the Intelligence Community is behind this. They just used Ken as a tool and gave him pointers to public documents for plausible deniability.

Yep, they're above the target... And it only serves to increase support for Grush.
 
Not to be the Ken defense force.
wow ken does not come off good in that interview. i cant really quote (even with the transcript) what he says regarding an explanation as he is really babbling. (not sure if he is just super nervous and guilty feeling, or if he is on speed)

No argument with your feelings - but I will say that Twitter spaces are not an Interview. This is basically a giant disorganized group chat ala Discord. He isn't prepared with good recording or audio equipment. Twitter space audio also is generally bad. I've heard him speak before - this is his normal cadence, and he's answering questions off the cuff from a hostile audience. Not that it should change your mind but I think listening to this like it's a standard interview of a journalist is not accurate.

I work in a field related to interview recording - and this is hard to explain, but poor quality reporting like this will make someone who talks fast sound drunk or on drugs. It's because you're only hearing portions of the audio but enough to make you feel like you're hearing the whole thing.

On a close listen he isn't saying anything incoherent, whether you agree with his justifications or methods.

Timestamp: 58:11
"I was getting bits and pieces from different people. You know how these intel people are vague, they'll be like 'look into his background'. They'll be like, um, I'm trying to think of how to say this...in a way that will sound rigorous, multiple people told me to just look at any run ins with law enforcement in the past. And in was vague."
This is a misquote, he did not say "sounds rigorous" - he said "in a way that's like, rigorous" - this indicates that he's saying he's trying to answer the question rigorously - not make it sound like he *was rigorous.*
 
As far as I'm concerned Grusch's medical record is utterly irrelevant to the UAP issue. No serious investigation of the issue was ever going to take Grusch's claims totally on face value anyway. Thus the only real issue is whether there actually are 40 supportive whistleblowers and whether they really do have substantive first hand evidence of what Grusch claims. That is really all that matters.
 
One more comment on the Twitter space:
Source: https://twitter.com/UAPFilesPodcast/status/1689457116950491136


I'm going to get a transcript, but someone in the space asks Klippenstein point blank, "In your opinion what is the point of this article?"

His explanation is I think worth discussing - if someone else wants to type it out before I get the file from Greenwald. It's at 1:00:08.
His answer is essentially that he felt that the approach they were taking was not rigorous, and wanted to demonstrate the overall lack of rigor coming from Grusch and Coulthart.

I still don't particularly like the approach but I also don't think that should just be completely dismissed.
 
So this proves the Intelligence Community is behind this. They just used Ken as a tool and gave him pointers to public documents for plausible deniability.

Yep, they're above the target... And it only serves to increase support for Grush.
How does it prove the "intelligence community" is behind this?
 
Meaning, suppose the Grusch story were identical to the one he's making, but whatever programs he's stumbled on have nothing to do with aliens or anything extraordinary, but rather some special access military technology related stuff that is not under the appropriate oversight.

I think one of the problems with that is how does Grusch know these programs are not under the appropriate oversite? There are classified congressional briefings, that one would suppose he's not part of. Now he claims to know how these secret programs misappropriate funds to maintain them, but if that's the case, he's been read into a lot more than he claims.

In other words, he claims to know about these programs, knows how they're funded, knows they are beyond oversite, knows what they do and what they have, yet his main IC complaint is that he was denied access to them as a member of UAPTF. Which is it?

So this proves the Intelligence Community is behind this. They just used Ken as a tool and gave him pointers to public documents for plausible deniability.

Yep, they're above the target... And it only serves to increase support for Grush.

As in some members of the IC, Grusch's cohorts and possible co-workers fed information to a reporter? Or, there is an organized top down campaign to discredit him with higher ups in the IC creating strategies and giving orders to underlings to carry out said campaign?

He has in essence come out and said Moulder was right and The X Files was true. These are huge claims, with no evidence.

I find him a bit self-righteous bordering on arrogant, just my take. Add the saint like persona people like Coulthard and others in UFOlogy have bestowed upon him and it's not a big stretch to think IF he rubbed some people the wrong way that he worked with, they might want him taken down a peg. No conspiracy needed, just 1 or 2 disgruntled coworkers.
 
This is a misquote, he did not say "sounds rigorous" - he said "in a way that's like, rigorous" - this indicates that he's saying he's trying to answer the question rigorously - not make it sound like he *was rigorous.*

Thanks for correcting it. That was my mistake from typing while listening. I've edited and corrected it.
 
So this proves the Intelligence Community is behind this. They just used Ken as a tool and gave him pointers to public documents for plausible deniability.

Yep, they're above the target... And it only serves to increase support for Grush.
I genuinely could hunt and find this information out, for free, as a complete layman. It is not hard. Someone's previous addresses are very easy to find online. A neighbor could have said something, a family member, a USPS worker. Literally all the journalist needed was an address, which are public record and known to neighbors and friends. It's as likely to not be an intelligence guy as it is to be any other person.
 
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