1. RealTruth

    RealTruth Member

    Not suggesting that these vaccines create the increase in health issues over the last 100 years, I'm simply pointing out that they haven't made Us healthier. People get sick with influenze and common cold more than We did before vaccines and international epidemics didn't exist before them. However, this is a combination of several factors including diet, exercise, etc. I'm just saying, stats don't suggest We get sick any less, though they do have a place with respect to epidemics like perhaps small pocks. I feel they should be used with extreme discretion as they were then. :)
     
  2. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Vaccines work through the immune system by triggering it to work in response to what they vaccinate against, your idea that they atrophy it by bypassing it is wrong.
     
  3. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    Utter nonsense. Healthcare is about providing a good quality of life and preventing a premature ir unnecessary death.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. RealTruth

    RealTruth Member

    I understand that and I would be perfectly okay with it if I knew exactly what was in it. I don't, so I don't trust it. Nobody injects Me with anything, though I give blood as often as I can.
     
  5. RealTruth

    RealTruth Member

    I could show You an article where a mother had both of her children vaccinated AGAINST her will. The doctor literally took the baby away before the mother even had a chance to hold him. He went into cardiac arrest almost immediately, was hospitalized for several days and never made a full recovery, was diagnosed with autism. For her second child, the same result; once again against her will. If people want it, fine. Imposed on people - that's fascism, period.
     
  6. RealTruth

    RealTruth Member

    I am not anti-anything except removal of freedoms. You want vaccines, fine. You don't want them, that should be fine, too. Having the government decide what is good for Us, not cool. If they cared, they would not allow most of the food on grocery store shelves.
     
  7. RealTruth

    RealTruth Member

  8. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Can you provide some science showing that vaccines make us weaker and more susceptible to disease as you've stated?


    Here you go, now you know, so no problem! Happy Vaccinating.
     
    • Informative Informative x 4
  9. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member


     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. RealTruth

    RealTruth Member

    I'd be interested in seeing that article if You can post it. I would certainly NOT put any vaccine in My body based on the list of ingredients You have provided. Yes, I understand they declare them safe, but studies suggest otherwise... The link I sent included is a good start. As for evidence that those who don't get vaccinated are healthier, I have no evidence except My own physical body. I'm forty, I don't get sick, I was a competitive cyclist and won My division (cat 4) in My first year of racing at 33, most of My competitors were almost half My age. I do five sets of chin ups every second day and five sets of push ups every other day. Fitness and diet is the key to good health, not drugs or vaccines. But that's just Me. Like I said, not opposed to the idea, I just believe We should have the freedom to choose. If We don't, something is up. I give no one dominion over My body under any circumstance.
     
  11. RealTruth

    RealTruth Member

  12. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    It's from the post above that shows the ingredients in vaccines.

    Here's a another one.
     
  13. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Have you ever had chicken pox, pertussis or measles? Would you consider exposing yourself to them, for science?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. RealTruth

    RealTruth Member

    Don't know what pertussis is, had the pox but not measles. And yes, I would be. :)
     
  15. RealTruth

    RealTruth Member

    (but not by injection) :p
     
  16. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Whooping cough. It's not pleasant, so I've heard.

    Yes, aluminium in certain quantities can be toxic of course, however it is a ubiquitous substance we are in contact with every day in some form either through ingestion, contact, or in dust we breathe, and has been for as long as we've been here. It's right to study it's effect on us when we start getting more of it into ourselves with increases in pollution or industrial processes or food production - but it's understood that it does no damage, or has not been proven to, at the levels we are getting in vaccines, and generally in everyday life. There are also many different compounds of aluminium which can have different effects on us.
    Have a skim through the wiki to get an idea.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium


    (interesting factoid....)
     
  17. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    I don't remember because I was only 3 months old, but I almost died from it.
     
  18. Dan Wilson

    Dan Wilson Active Member

    Like what? Is it opinion that thimerisal has been removed from most vaccines? That there has consistently been no causative link between the relatively low doses of thimerisal found in vaccines and negative developmental effects? What evidence is there to the contrary? That is what I'm asking you to present.

    http://www.nature.com/clpt/journal/v82/n6/full/6100407a.html
    http://cjns.metapress.com/content/n...le&issn=0317-1671&volume=33&issue=4&spage=341
    http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10997

    In that analogy, think of vaccines as a training program for your immune system. Vaccines strengthen the immune system by priming it with antibodies. You can't just say that it's not "natural" and therefore not good. With vaccines, our immune systems are prepared to fight off diseases that would have commonly killed many of us at relatively young ages.

    ADHD and autism have always been around, the methods of diagnosing it have just developed more, leading to more diagnosed cases. How has health declined since 20 years ago? Can you present some statistics on that?

    You need to understand that dosage and context make the poison. Unless you are presenting studies that demonstrate a link between aluminum dosages and compounds relevant to vaccines in a way that makes physiological sense, you're presenting irrelevant information. The children in the article you posted were receiving doses of phosphate binders containing 240-800mg/kg of aluminum daily for four to twelve months. Compare those numbers to Pete's chart of aluminum per vaccine dose, and it becomes clear that the study doesn't translate to vaccines.

    Why not? Each component plays a part. Do you not understand that vaccines are tested extensively in human trials before being made available to the public? That sometimes, even if it has the potential to be incredibly useful, a particular vaccine that shows even one sign of scientific evidence that it could be harmful in any way will be withheld from the market, forcing the researchers to work for another decade to demonstrate its safety? Only then it will be available. It's not something researchers and regulators take lightly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
    • Agree Agree x 4
  19. Trigger Hippie

    Trigger Hippie Senior Member

    If too many people refuse to get vaccinated, herd immunity will no longer protect those that have not yet received a shot. Like the very young, and the very unlucky anti-vaxers. Here you go @RealTruth , herd immunity explained in 2 minutes and 47 seconds...



    It's a little tricky to understand but getting vaccinated does not completely protect a person from contracting a disease. The person can still get sick. Vaccines, however, significantly reduce the chance of any one person from getting sick.

    The key to real protection is widespread vaccinations. So if an outbreak does occur, it can't as easily spread throughout the population. Herd immunity, there’s strength in numbers.

     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  20. Trigger Hippie

    Trigger Hippie Senior Member

    The stats suggest that we get less sick from the diseases we're getting vaccinated against.

    So you agree vaccines helped fight against smallpox. That's encouraging.

    Now why do you believe vaccines should not be used against other epidemics that kill people like Diphtheria, Hepatitis, Papillomavirus, influenza, Measles, Pertussis, Rubella, Typhoid?
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  21. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Talking of getting vaccinated - when should I personally get a vaccine? I haven't had one since childhood, and am not a traveller. The discussion around vaccination makes it seem like it is my moral responsibility to go out and seek vaccination. Is this true and when am I supposed to do this?
     
  22. Dan Wilson

    Dan Wilson Active Member

    If you've gotten your childhood vaccinations, you've mostly done your part. Seasonal flu, however, can be especially nasty to certain individuals. A healthy person can be affected by the flu or carry it without symptoms and turn out just fine, but if that person passes it on to someone who is immunocompromised or the strain happens to be particularly nasty, it could end up causing deaths. Here is a Q&A page fro the CDC with all of the suggestions on flu vaccines.

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/keyfacts.htm
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  23. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    TBH, I don't know exactly what I've been vaccinated for as a child.
     
  24. Dan Wilson

    Dan Wilson Active Member

    Medical records of vaccinations are normally given to the parents as well as kept in the clinic that administered them. If you can't find that information the safest thing to do would be to receive the shots again but doctors can also do blood tests to see if you have immunity to certain diseases.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Dan Wilson

    Dan Wilson Active Member

    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. Svartbjørn

    Svartbjørn Senior Member

    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    I feel this is a direct result of the share function on social media. It's too easy to spread bunk.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  28. Dan Wilson

    Dan Wilson Active Member

    Recently in social media I've seen a few people claiming that the polio vaccine is unsafe and can cause polio. Among the stories told to support these claims is one involving 200,000 people contracting the virus from vaccines given in the 1950's. There is a real story to this, and it is one of the events in medical history that probably still contributes to the mistrust of vaccines and pharmaceutical medicine.
    In 1955, pediatricians in some eastern countries of the United States started reporting cases of paralysis in young children recently injected with a polio vaccine from one of the six private pharmaceutical companies distributing it (often for free) at the time. This particular distributor was called Cutter Laboratories and this story has since been dubbed the "Cutter Incident." After the reports, head of the Epidemic Intelligence Agency, Alexander Langmuir, urged for a recall of all polio vaccine lots and sent investigators to inspect the facilities. Cutter Laboratories were found to have several lots of polio vaccine that contained live virus. It turned out that they were not following Jonas Salk's protocol correctly and the virus was not being properly inactivated by formaldehyde. The problem was corrected and the staff properly trained, but the mark that the event left was already made. By the end of it, about 220,000 people were injected with the contaminated Cutter vaccine. Not everyone who is exposed to polio, however, will contract the disease. Out of the 220,000 people, about 70,000 developed muscle weakness, 164 were severely paralyzed, and 10 died. After the issue was resolved, not many parents wanted to get their children vaccinated. Shortly afterwards, a polio epidemic in Massachusetts demonstrated the risks a population takes when they choose to not get vaccinated.
    Today, the polio vaccine is extremely safe. In con tries highly afflicted by the disease, an oral polio vaccine (OPV) is employed for efficiency's sake, as the goal is to vaccinate as many people as quickly as possible. OPV can, in about 1 in every 2.7 million cases, cause polio in the patient. These cases are extremely rare and are thought to be a result of high immune system deficiency. This risk exists because the OPV contains live attenuated virus. Other forms of the vaccine, however, do not share these risks, as the virus is inactivated.
    Medicine is a story of successes and failures. A lot of money and research is poured into making a vaccine safe and effective and even then, mistakes sometimes still happen. Risks of being harmed by a vaccine today are smaller than ever, in part because those mistakes happened. So those who warn against it by telling and exaggerating stories of the past are being mislead and are misleading others.

    Supplemental reading on polio:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/
    http://www.polioeradication.org/Polioandprevention/Thevaccines/Oralpoliovaccine(OPV).aspx
    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/343/6177/1302.full
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  29. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    no cases of Polio in India for 3 years:

     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  30. Svartbjørn

    Svartbjørn Senior Member

    • Like Like x 2
  31. cosmic

    cosmic Active Member

  32. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    I'm a parent of 4, and I once believed vaccines weren't safe or caused autism. It's funny because the first time I actually heard about this was from a speech therapist, who we brought our son too when he was about 2yrs old. Parents are funny these days, and we rarely have the time or patience to let things work themselves out anymore, like our parents did. And guess what, we all turned out just fine. But back to my son. He wouldn't speak a word before turning 2 beside the occasional mumble. So naturally, we were referred to a speech therapist that was under our plan (Horizon) and she came highly recommended. On the first visit withing 10 minutes of meeting her she thought my son "could" have autism and ADD or ADHD. 10 freaking minutes, and trust me half of the time was spent interviewing us. One of her questions stuck with us, and scared the crap out of me and my wife. She asked if he has taken his vaccinations already, and we told her of course he did. She shook her head and proceeded to fill us in on the vaccine "debacle" and how it could do this or that. By the time we left her office I thought my son was autistic, needed special education, and I was ready to open a law suit on my pediatrician. I was devastated. Long story short, she was out of her freaking mind. We did the research and I actually spoke with several doctors in the field and even emailed the CDC because I didn't know who else to turn to.

    My son is fine, actually really intelligent for his age and gets along just fine in school. Sure he has his moments, but what boy doesn't.

    My concern moving forward are these flu vaccines. Now I understand getting a vaccine for chicken pox or the measles, but why against a virus that constantly mutates. Now my daughter just turned 5 yrs of age and she's in preschool because she missed the cut off date. Schools just started doing this recently because I didn't have to deal with this with my son. If they are 5yrs and younger they are "required" to have a flu vaccine, and kids have to get 2 shots about 30 days apart their first time. My daughter has allergies and at times has to take a corticosteroid ointment or lotion on her skin. Some Dr's recommend the shot and others say NO, but the school doesn't care. I'm torn but I really don't want my daughter to get the flu vaccine, and most people I know who get it end up getting sick anyway. Most vaccines only carry 3 or 4 vaccines in them, and it just seems weird that we have to have our kids take these vaccines every year, when the flu virus mutates or there are several different varieties in the population...
     
  33. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    Because it could always mutate and do something like this.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  34. Svartbjørn

    Svartbjørn Senior Member


    The Flu vaccines that are given are based on averages and data collected over the last few decades. The CDC issues a vaccine based on the strain they THINK is going to be prevalent this year. As to WHY you should get them, my understanding from the medical community that Ive grown up around (and married into) is that they're most beneficial for those most at risk from the Flu.. IE the elderly and the very young. MOST of the time the CDC is pretty spot on with their predictions, but mother nature likes to throw a monkey wrench in the works now and then. Personally, I dont get the Flu vaccines.. but thats because Im in the prime of my life, healthy and have a healthy immune system. I also grew up with vaccines.. all the stuff you get before you go to school as a kid.. as well as vaccinations against Anthrax and a few other nasty bugs, while I was in the military. I turned out just fine (other than my warped and twisted sense of humor.. mwhaahahahahahahaha). My advice Jason, do what's best for you and what's been fairly well proven to be best for your kids.

    I have yet to see any credible evidence anywhere that suggests that the vaccines are dangerous, cause problems, fill our bodies with nanobots that control our minds, etc. Just as with any type of medication, there IS the chance that your son/daughter/YOU may have some kind of unforseen reaction.. such as alleric reactions etc.. but those are very very very slim and very rare. I hope this helps.
     
  35. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    :DLOL. Too funny, and do you go by a nick name on this forum because Svartbjorn is a tongue full and a handful at the keyboard and I can't do that fancy "0" with a line through it like your able to.

    I too never had a flue shot, nor has my wife, nor my parents and most of my friends. I'm 38, so I don't know if that means I'm in the prime of my life like you are, but I feel pretty young, besides having 4 kids climbing all over me. I'm not worried in a CT sort of way about the flu shots. I'm a little pissed off to be honest with you that they are requiring kids 5 and younger to get the shot, and your first dose requires 2 shots spread out 30 days, to make sure they get all the flu vaccines. And your right the CDC does do an excellent job at predicting what lies ahead the following year, which is in of itself a mystery to me. Are they actually using science to predict future flue outbreaks, or is their a mad chemist sitting in the snack room rolling dice and taking odds. How do they go about predicting what lies ahead with respect to a virus, that mutates and honestly every year the flu hysteria starts in September, thanks in large part to the Media because they have nothing else report. But seriously, does anyone know what model they use. I know the vaccines are harmless for the most part, but I do hear about people getting sick after taking the shots. I also thought flu vaccines were meant for people with a better immune system or declining immune system, not ones that are being built up, like infants to age 5. Plus my daughter gets sick every year and even had pnuemonia last september and ended up in the hospital for 4 days. They say it has to do with her allergies, and the mucus dripping down her throat and into her lungs. So her immune system is already weaker than others, since she has allergies to begin with. I'm perplexed about all of this, and I really appreciate all of your kind words. Thanks:)
     
  36. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    the truth is, other than your boss (many companies offer the vaccine for free so employees don't miss work) I don't think anyone cares if us healthy people get the flu. the point is to protect the old and infants who can more easily die from the flu.

    I used to love getting the flu every year...easiest way to lose 5 pounds after the holidays...but if I have it I can pass it to those with weak immune systems. that's the point with flu shots.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  37. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member


    ME TOO!!!!!

    I haven't 'died' yet (that anyone has noticed, so far...).

    Adding....my personal opinion is: Mother's breast milk is vital to an infant's viability and endurance. Sorry, but it is EVOLUTIONARY effects at work, within any species, and this includes we "humans" (Homo Homo Sapiens).

    Survival of the fittest. Modern medical technology alters what nature (and DNA chemistry) already accomplishes...(as it does in ALL OTHER SPECIES). But, modern medicine is also "evolving"...(the term here, of "evolving" is a bit different in the definition...it relates to "Learning" due to science, and the scientific method of how knowledge advances).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  38. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Hey TJ,
    While I totally appreciate your enthusiastic and fabulous efforts to roll with the times, embrace the winds of change
    (17 states, after all, have legalized gay marriage so far) and be the standard-bearer for the Gaga LGBTQA cultural revolution,
    I think that most palaeoanthropologists still use "Homo sapiens sapiens" rather than your more glittery revision.


    Screen Shot 2014-04-05 at 1.09.58 AM.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  39. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    LOL!!!! I had a brain fart, there! Thanks for catching it....(or, was it a frain bart??)
     
  40. Dan Wilson

    Dan Wilson Active Member

    Predicting new flu strains is a tricky business. In short, it involves molecular genetics and calculus. We look at the gene pool of the successful strains in circulation in a current and then try to predict what its descendants will be like next year. The original article that describes exactly how they do it is published in Nature and I don't know a version of it that is free, but here is some reading material on it that I could find (including the abstract to the Nature article).
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v507/n7490/full/nature13087.html
    http://time.com/10560/scientists-can-now-predict-the-flu/
    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2013-2014.htm

    All injected flu vaccines are made using killed virus, so it is not a danger to those with weak or developing immune systems. It will actually strengthen any immune system, which is why elders who naturally have waning defenses are recommended to get them. Your daughter's immune system also is not weaker because she has allergies. Allergies just mean your body attacks things that aren't actually dangerous, it doesn't mean the immune system overall is less effective. It seems reasonable to me to require children attending schools to get them. Schools create an environment where viruses can spread especially easily. So many children packed together for hours and hours every day not practicing particularly good hygiene and then going home to their families gives a virus the opportunity to spread all over a community in a relatively short time. Those it can spread to includes those who may not be able to fight off the virus very well which leads to deaths every year. Preventing the virus in as many people as possible means less spreading and less deaths.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3