Discussion in 'Health and Quackery' started by Dan Wilson, Feb 9, 2014.
Yep.. I agree:
as a matter of interest, how many of those are single-disease vaccines that are actually administered in one shot (eg MMR)??
In other news a totally scientific study has found that autism causes vaccines......
I have never looked into this before, but happened to see the picture shared by a friend on Facebook. I decided to read some of the comments to it after reading it. Not many were arguing for vaccines, but they were certainly holding their own against those apposing them. Most of the arguments against having them weren't very convincing, even for someone like me who hasn't looked into it.
I agree with you there too.. but when it comes to Facebook, I dont bother reading the comments.. its usually one side screaming and yelling obscenities at the other with little or no regard for attempting to have a meaningful conversation. From my own perspective, Ive spent my entire life in and around the medical community.. both my mother and my ex-wife are paramedics, Ive done several years as a Veterinary Assistant so the idea of Herd Immunity is very familiar.
The biggest argument AGAINST vaccines is "Nobody gets measles or polio anymore, so we're getting injected for no reason and its poison." Its a basic misunderstanding of science and why vaccines work. While its true that the fluids vaccines suspended in have mercury and all that in them.. we're talking parts per BILLION.. one molecule of mercury for every billion molecules of everything else in the suspension. We measure lead and mercury in water in parts per million, just to give you a reference.
The easiest way to understand herd immunity is to think of having a broken arm. You're in a butt load of pain, your body's screaming at you so you're given drugs to mitigate the pain or, in some cases, remove it completely. If you take said pain killer and your arm stops hurting.. does that mean your arm is now completely healed? No.. of course not, it just means that you're not feeling the pain anymore. If you dont take your next dose of pain killers, the pain will come back. Herd Immunity works the same way... if a large enough portion of the herd is immune to a certain contagion or disease, then the chances of the herd getting sick is very very very greatly reduced. Its why Polio is almost unheard of in humans these days. I realize this isnt a perfect analogy but it helps illustrate the point.
As far as autism goes, there's no real evidence to back it up. There IS a real danger of a very very small percentage of the population being allergic to the suspension fluid that delivers the vaccine into your body, but thats true for absoutely -everything.- Someone, somewhere on the planet is allergic to SOMETHING. Personally, Ive had every injection on the vaccine list, Im not autistic.. same with my five brothers and sisters as well as the thousands of kids Id gone to school with from Kindergarten upward. If the vaccines were as dangerous, or caused autism in the way anti-vax types claim... then even in that small population there would be a much much MUCH greater number of kids dying from injections or having autism. The numbers just dont add up.
WIth that said, I think its a great idea that people are looking into medicine for themselves and not just blindly listening to what their doctor tells them, but at the same time there's SO much information out there its hard to separate the bullshit from fact.. which is the exact reason Metabunk exists.
*Edit: Grammatical corrections
They wouldn't have caught it if big pharma weren't intentionally injecting people with it. Obviously.
Something sad and a rather shocking display of ignorance I saw on facebook was a picture from a Babar book with the caption:
'It appears Babar is better informed than most public health officials'.
i think that originated with this post. (also a chemtrailist amongst other things it looks)
The book was written in 1971. Babar and the Doctor
Sadly the author, who has NO medical background, his father, the creator of Babar died in 1937 of TB:
The Brady Bunch all survived measles too. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0531101/
So i guess because children TV shows and children's books dont show dying children, measles must be safe. Sounds reasonable. :/
Nowadays there isn't even mercury in vaccines anymore. Also, it's not really mercury, its thiomersal, a mercury compound. So it doesn't have the same toxicity properties of mercury. It just acts as a preservative preventing bacteria and fungi from growing. This is to help prevent children from getting infections at the injection site. To say that we injected mercury into kids is to take thiomersal out of chemical context.
The anti-vax lobby is now even debunking themselves
I think a slightly longer explanation of the content of the link would be useful - eg this paragraph:
21ST CENTURY VETERANS BENEFITS DELIVERY ACT will make Veterans, treated at the V.A., human guinea pigs for the pharmaceutical vaccine industry.
Call your representatives today and take a stand against fascist medicine.
See the bill at this link: https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/114th-congress/senate-report/153/1?resultIndex=9
or search this site for more information
I see a lot of "eligibles" "mays" and "recommendeds" in the relevant sections, but no "requireds" "musts" or "mandatories".
Can you point to a section of the document that supports this idea? In what case are veterans being treated as "guinea pigs?" As far as I can tell this document only talks about vaccines that have already been tested, approved, and recommended.
Note : there is now a thread dedicated to the "mandatory vaccines for veterans" claim.
I've seen those declining disease charts that are referred to in the video. The poster suggests that the Pertussis vaccine had been used before 1949, when it was officially added to the US vaccine schedule in the multidose DTP vaccine. Although it may have been administered in some practices prior to 1949, widespread use did not occur until later. i.e. Following the introduction of pertussis vaccination during the 1950s – 1960s, http://www.who.int/biologicals/vaccines/pertussis/en/
Yes, some vaccines were used during localized outbreaks before being mass-produced. The claim that vaccines aren't actually responsible for the decline in disease incidence is a strange one.
The anti-vaxxers have a summit this weekend and the Dallas Morning News put this out:
Sorry to bump up this thread, but the Australian Prime Minister has thrown his weight behind calls to ban unvaccinated children from childcare centers and pre-schools. Reasonable Hank has covered the reaction of the Anti-Vaxxers response:
EVERY large group of people has a few members who are 'embarrassing' to the group. Anti-vaxxers are by far and large non-violent.
While conspiracy-pushing is dangerous in that it aids in riling up unstable people, I doubt your blurb there is indicative of "the Anti-vaxxer response" as a whole.
The article linked below [claims to ]shows how new Chinese research points to aluminum nanoparticles used as adjuvants in vaccines as causing autism (i.e. brain injury):
The article also references a scientific article from the Middle East that successfully used aluminum to induce Alzheimer's disease in lab rats as well as autism:
Just imagine Australia using social sanction against children whose parents do not want to expose them to having aluminum nanoparticle adjuvants injected into their bodies given the known neurotoxic effects.
For reference, here is the original article.
The initial claim that autism is caused by an immune activation event is questionable. The immune system's possible role in autism has been consistently shown to specifically involve maternal infection during pregnancy, familial autoimmune disease, and maternal autoimmune antibodies rather than immune response events during post-natal development.
It is not clear whether or not the immune abnormalities are a cause or result of the disorder. With that said, everything else the article claims almost becomes irrelevant. It is also confusing that a vaccine being used to cause an immune activation event is made out to be significant here. If a vaccine fails to cause an immune response, then you have no vaccine. At the heart of their argument, however, is the use of aluminum in vaccines, which has been widely demonstrated to be safe and effective in the amounts used.
@Dan Wilson quick question. I'm spring cleaning so haven't had time to look it up.. this il-6 connection seems to be what they are basing a connection on. saying aluminum causes il-6 elevations. I'm wondering if perseverative behaviors ( used to be called "stimming" although I'm not sure if that is still a politically correct term) could account for these alleged elevated il-6 levels in autistics.
* I say alleged only because the little I know about it the study sizes were wicked small.
adding: since the vast majority of "asd" kids do not have sever behaviors, I'm adding this just so parents reading casually don't freak out
That's an interesting idea. I don't know if that's been tested or how many with ASD display stimming (I believe that is the PC term) behavior. Either way, the increased IL-6 is probably not a significant causal factor in the disease disorder.
Autism is a disease?? :O
You got me. I made it more PC.
thanks. plucking through some of the papers, and yes according to this study trying to determine if they can use il-6 and serotonin levels as biomarkers for diagnosis...http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content...and-interleukin-6-as-biomarker-for-autism.pdf...
only half (n=33) the autistic individuals displayed il-6 levels above the control (n=31, non autistic children) children.
it is interesting, the il-6 levels in some asd persons, but of course many things are known to increase il-6 levels so this really has nothing to do with vaccines at all.
Wasn't sure where to find this info, so I'll just ask here. I see some claims going around that vaccinated people are the ones infecting the unvaccinated people. Is that possible at all?
If we are talking about attenuated live virus vaccines, yes, they can infect them with the live vaccine virus, and essentially vaccinate them as well!
Yes, you are talking about shedding.
It only concerns a few vaccines, it's still pretty rare, and contaminated people will not develop the full blown disease (although it's better to be cautious around immunocompromised people, out of caution)
I have a separate question. If an older person thinks they never had measles or mumps, should they be vaccinated against them now?
Ask your physician.
Depends how at risk they are. I got mumps as an army nurse and it was dreadful. I ended up with the nickname of Buster Gonads. I will let your imagination run with that.
There are also centers specialized in vaccination in some countries ; maybe look for where you would have to go if you wanted the necessary vaccinations for traveling.
I meant "older" in terms of not a child... and adult. Are there accepted guidelines on that? Don't know when I would be in a position to ask an actual doctor.
Considering the types of readers and posters that MB attracts, I think it is inappropriate to allow any members to dispense medical advice. You can google the question of course. or
You can phone any doctor's office up and ask. Either the desk personnel will know and will tell you, or they will have a doctor or physician assistant/nurse call you back. In my state you can call 211 and they will tell you who you can call.
CDC says yes, though checking with your GP is still a good idea IMO. A call can't hurt.
Oww, that is not pleasant to say the least...
And for our American buddies who don't get the Buster Gonad reference...
A recent news piece from Science magazine:
A clear parallel with the chemtrail crowd targeting scientific meetings on 'geoengineering' topics
Just came across this old anti-vaccine poster quoting MD's who said the smallpox vaccine doesn't work.
Vaccination Condemned. Poster with various quotations condemning the practice of vaccination. Published by the Midland (U.K) Anti-Vaccination League. Late 1800s.
Dear All, there was a question before about whether an exposure to a vaccine-preventable disease would change the minds of antivaccine believers. Here is a story from Europe.
The link above is a summary from ECDC (kinda like CDC). It was published before the final outcome: the Spanish boy died of diphteria.
The boy was not vaccinated, his parents were against vaccination because of personal beliefs. It was not known how he caught the disease. He was hospitalized and treated with antibiotics. Spain, just like the majority of European countries, did not sockpile diphteria antitoxin, because the disease was practically eradicated. The antitoxin was sourced from Russia, but it was too late. 10 more people were infected, but they did not develope symptomps, as all of them were vaccinated. They were isolated and treated with antibiotics.
Another summary: https://elpais.com/elpais/2015/06/29/inenglish/1435559306_461811.html
Right after he was hospitalized, his parents had their daughter vaccinated (she did not get vaccination before, for the same reason, the personal beliefs of the parents), and had spoken out against the antivaccination movement: https://elpais.com/elpais/2015/06/05/inenglish/1433512717_575817.html
So, yes, it is possible that reality kicks in the door and presents itself. However, there should be no need to happen this way...
Separate names with a comma.