I've been wrong here as well. Was not happy about it but it did get us closer to the truth. Thanks for challenging me to dig a bit deeper, I was surprised as well that it was on the front page. Apparently the recipe was secret, but not the menu..
Wilbert B Smith, Project Magnet, and his Claims of UFO Debris
- Thread starter Itsme
- Start date
MonkeeSage
Senior Member
Indeed, that's why I qualified it so heavily and I'm not putting much stock into it without confirmation. The person who uploaded the clip seems to believe the story of the Aztec crash and thinks Koehler "outsmarted" the agents, which would make it a hostile source for confirming the incident was a hoax. The uploader also give some further information in description/comments that could potentially be used to verify provenance, though again I am not treating it as genuine until such verification is made. It seemed remiss to leave out a potential piece of information, so I included it with caveats.
This is a secret recording made on 3/31/1950 of an interrogation of George Koehler by two AFOSI (Air Force Office of Special Investigations) officers. The officers state their last names at the beginning (Officers Hanson and Fred Unger). The officers specifically ask about any knowledge Koehler had of recovered "gadgets". (Why would they ask this if the Aztec, Roswell, etc. crashes didn't happen?)
According to Steinman's and Steven's "UFO Crash at Aztec" on page 89, George Koehler was under surveillance by Army counterintelligence, the FBI, and AOSI - all at the same time!
George Koehler was a "time salesmen" for radio station KMYR. He says so in the recording, at around 21:20. He outsmarted the officers.
Koehler (or "Coulter") is related to the notorious #UAP crash retrieval Hottel J. Edgar FBI memo:
https://www.theblackvault.com/documen...
It was found in author Frank Scully's official archives at the American Heritage Center (AHC) in Laramie, WY:
https://archiveswest.orbiscascade.org...
It was officially digitized at the AHC by Andrew Criss (acriss2 at uwyo.edu). Details: Box 34, Item 17: "George Koehler; Save; Geo K. and Governor Air Force Boys and Magnetic definitions" 3-31-50
The tape is at the University of Wyoming (American Heritage Center) in Laramie, and it's available for public inspection. Request "Frank Scully papers", box 34 item 17, and have them play back the tape for you. It's been sitting there since 1988 according to wikipedia. That's when Alice Scully donated it to the University. https://archiveswest.orbiscascade.org/ark:80444/xv506256?q=Scully
Mendel
Senior Member.
I'd say it's pretty certain that it's Frank Scully's tape. Maybe you could ask the good folks at the Heritage Center to add the tape to their digital collection, then it'd be downloadable.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
The interview is fairly consistent with Sarbacher's letter to Steinman (post #30) form the same time period. He actually mentions the letter:
Both the letter and the interview seem to basically say: He heard about recovered saucers and such from some people but he can't remember who any of them are. He never saw any type of proof or pictures related to recovered saucers. He may have talked to a Canadian, at least to a Bremmer and maybe Smith.F: Ok let me ask you a different sort of question ah since my initial contact with you have any government people bothered you about this
S: I haven't, no there's somebody in California, Steinman
F: Steinman, Ya
S: Ah who has written a number of letters and I answered one just recently
F: Oh,
S: I think
F: He's a strange man but ah judging by his letters to me (laughter)
S: I know he generally has a letter in here every 15 minutes I look bad because I'm not here you know. I come back and there are two or three letters, some of them typed some of them long hand. I think god he's really xxxxxxxx???
F: Well he's sort of a peculiar guy but...You would probably there was a guy well maybe he was doing it for a guy named Todd Zechel somebody in my travels mentioned of him. Todd's a really a not to be dealt with.
When Freidman mentions Smith's notes there is this interesting exchange:
I can't tell what Sarbacher means when he says "I don't have the slightest idea" and "it seems silly". Is he referring to how Smith took his comments or is he referring to what he thinks is a "silly" classification on the part of the government. Can't tell from the context.F: Let's see early fifties now the notes that I sent you from Wilbert Smith, do you remember, you do remember talking to him.
S: Ya vaguely
F: The Canadian.
S: Ya vaguely
F: Okay, that, his notes were, ah 1950 and let me see exact date September 15th where his notes 1950. He asked you a question that you didn't answer at that time which was rather fascinating (??) maybe you've just given me the answer in a sense, ah he quotes you as saying " Yes it is classified two points higher even than the H Bomb. In fact the most highly classified subject in the US government at the present time." and
S: I don't have the slightest idea why.
F: Well
S: It seems silly to me.
F: Well, his next comment, that was supposedly what you said and then his next comment was ah "May I ask the reason for the classification" and you said " You may ask but I can't tell you." Well think that (cut off)
S: Well probably cause I didn't know.
Like most stories concerning crashed saucers, recovered aliens and meta-materials, it's a series of rumors, water cooler talk, revelations from unknown or forgotten people and no real evidence of anything.
A bit off topic, but speaking of meta-materials, I wonder if Sarbacher ever managed to layer magnesium and bismuth like found in Art's Parts. It appears he thought bismuth might have anti-gravity properties:
I'll have to post this over to the meta-materials from UFOs thread.F: Were you guys talking about nuclear powered flight at that time?
S: Oh, we were possibly, yes, but I held, had certain ideas see, one of the problems today we really don't know what gravity is we don't know and I had an idea, I'm willing to work on it in one of my theses but then my professor didn't believe me, but I had
determined that bismuth(?????) did not obey the laws of gravity. So I thought that gee there's a leak I might be able to get nature to tell me something
F: Hmmm
S: But they wouldn't let me, they didn't believe me, well they believed me but he said hell that's a second order effect
F: (laugh)
S: Which is implying it was in the, in the area of, of the accuracy of the instrument.
F: Ya
Mendel
Senior Member.
I'm parsing it as Sarbacher musing on what Smith claimed that Sarbacher said:
So, Sarbacher seems to say, "I don't have the slightest idea why Smith quotes me as saying that" and "Well, I probably said that because I didn't know what the classification was, or why".
F: Let's see early fifties now the notes that I sent you from Wilbert Smith, do you remember, you do remember talking to him.
S: Ya vaguely
F: The Canadian.
S: Ya vaguely
F: Okay, that, his notes were, ah 1950 and let me see exact date September 15th where his notes 1950. He asked you a question that you didn't answer at that time which was rather fascinating (??) maybe you've just given me the answer in a sense, ah he quotes you as saying " Yes it is classified two points higher even than the H Bomb. In fact the most highly classified subject in the US government at the present time." and
S: I don't have the slightest idea why.
F: Well
S: It seems silly to me.
F: Well, his next comment, that was supposedly what you said and then his next comment was ah "May I ask the reason for the classification" and you said " You may ask but I can't tell you." Well think that (cut off)
S: Well probably cause I didn't know.
Sarbacher doesn't remember the conversation with Smith, but when he talks to Friedman, we can see him rationalising and coming up with an explanation for why he might have said that.
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That interpretation does not really connect to the follow-up question by Friedman:
This seems more in line with the interpretation "because I didn't know why it was classified so high, maybe because of the talk I heard about crashes".
F: Well, his next comment, that was supposedly what you said and then his next comment was ah "May I ask the reason for the classification" and you said " You may ask but I can't tell you." Well think that (cut off)
S: Well probably cause I didn't know.
F: Oh, okay not because of this crash, you see there is no mention of a crash per say in this note. Do you think it could have happened after this?
S: I don't know there may have been several of them. Ah there was some talk that there were.
Mendel
Senior Member.
I'm not seeing it. Friedman is bringing up the crash, and S reacts to that, so it needn't be connected in S's mind. F is asking a leading question here, and S is being led.
Really? Sarbacher is very clear about it in his letter of post #31:
He does not write "I still don't know the level of classification", but instead he writes: "I still don't know why the high order of classification has been given".
He is discussing the same question with Friedman and Friedman speculates whether it was related to a crash and wondering whether that crash happened before Sarbacher spoke with Smith, which would make the timeline fit. Sarbacher then remarks there may have been several crashes, in other words: the timeline could fit one or more crashes that took place and the high level of classification could be related to them.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
I'll just say I'm glad I'm not some sort of arbitrator of judge for this. I can really go both ways on this. As Mendel says, and I felt reading the interview, he seems to be saying something like why would Smith have thought that's what I said. It's silly.
But his letter indicates that he thought the level of classification was rather high. Maybe to a "silly" level. I don't know.
Overall, I think it's a minor point. Sarbacher seems to have shared some rumors and water cooler talk with Smith and he took it as all true. Maybe Sarbacher thought it was all true. Neither of them ever provided any evidence other than "I heard this" or "I had this piece from a supposed UFO but not anymore".
In the end, Smith wrote a newsletter and book about his telepathic conversations with the Space Brothers. Section 3 of his book The New Science is form various space peoples:
https://www.wanttoknow.info/energy/wilbur_smith_new_science#introAssembled from disclosures made by space people in various communications made to W. B Smith, and others with whom contact has been established. Data is arranged in logical rather than chronological order.
The New Science reminds me a lot of Malcolm Bendall and his take on reality. Smith was more trained, an actual scientist and worked for a legitimate part of the Canadian government, BUT they both authored books of their own unique understanding on the universe that ultimately offered explanations for their pet projects. For Smith it was a geo-magnetic drive system and Bendall it was an over-unity free energy contraption.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cl...of-malcolm-bendall-provides-free-energy.12899
Mendel
Senior Member.
actually, on re-reading the source, it already is:
But I can't find it on the AHC website.
MonkeeSage
Senior Member
Same. I was thinking of shooting Mr. Criss an email about it this weekend.
I don't think it was about HIS telepathic conversations. A key person in it all seems to be Mrs Frances Swan:
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_SwanThe Frances Swan story is a 20th-century legend of a Maine housewife who, in 1954, claims to receive messages from extra-terrestrials via automatic writing.[1] Allegedly instructed by the messages to contact the Navy, the housewife reaches out to her next door neighbor, a retired admiral, who arranges for Naval investigators to interview the woman.
The admiral was admiral H.B. Knowles. Remember Smith told in his interview with Fitch that he and Knowles were good friends:
Source: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/wi...nd-his-claims-of-ufo-debris.13011/post-292718
FITCH: You're a friend of Admiral Knowles, Mr, Smith?
[Rear Admiral H. B. Knowles, U.S. Navy, Retired.]
SMITH: Oh, yes. Admiral Knowles and I have been very good friends for many years.
The book 38 Messages From Space: The Wilbert Smith Archives contains a letter from Knowles to admiral Espe, where Knowles introduces Mrs Swan and expressed great trust in her abilities. If you click 'look inside' on Amazon, the letter can be read.
I suspect Mrs Swan also inspired Wilbert Smith and at least a great part of the
came from her.
Duke
Senior Member.
I'm curious to know what the acronym "AFFA" stands for in Knowles' letter to Espe. I don't see anything in this list of acronyms that seems to fit, although it would be cool to find out the two flag officers were anarchists. 
https://www.acronymattic.com/AFFA.html
https://www.acronymattic.com/AFFA.html
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NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
Wiki says otherwise, but the sources are all old books:
Smith believed UFOs were linked to psychic phenomena [2] and believed himself to be in contact with extraterrestrial beings who communicated to him through telepathy.[3] Smith wrote a number of articles for Topside, the publication of the Ottawa New Sciences Club which he founded, outlining the philosophy of the "Space Brothers" with whom he claimed to be in contact.[4] The articles were later collected and published posthumously in 1969 under the title The Boys from Topside.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Magnet_(UFO)
Jerome Clark's book is over $90 on Amazon and Smith's The Boys from Topside is well over $200 as noted above. Where waiting on Duke to get a copy of Smith's through his library, but apparently the book is pretty rare.
However, Roy Craig's UFOs: An Insiders View of the Official Quest for Evidence is at least partially available online. From it we get the story of the 3000# of UFO material the Canadians had. Recall, Smith claimed "Our Canadian Research Group" recovered it:
http://www.nicap.org/reports/520723washington_transcript.htmFITCH: Have you ever handled any of this hardware yourself, sir?
SMITH: Yes. Quite a bit of it. Our Canadian Research Group has recovered one mass of very strange metal . . . ii was found within a few days of July 1, 1960. There is about three thousand pounds of it. We have done a tremendous amount of detective work on this metal. We have found out the things that aren't so. We have something that was not brought to this Earth by plane nor by boat nor by any helicopter. We are speculating that what we have is a portion of a very large device which came into this solar system ... we don't know when . . . but it had been in space a long time before it came to Earth; we can tell that by the micrometeorites embedded in the surface. But we don't know whether it was a few years ago—or a few hundred years ago.
FITCH: You mean then that you have about a ton and a half of something metallic, of unknown origin.
SMITH: That is correct. We can only speculate about it at this time—and we have done a great deal of that. We have it but we don't know what it is!
He doesn't make clear what "Research Group" recovered it. Project Magnet and Project Story were both around in the early '50s, but officially done by 1960, though Smith kept an unofficial version of Magnet going and an office at Shirly Bay through 1961. So, he could be fudging at the name of the Group to allow one to infer it was Project Magnet that recovered the material and that the Canadian government was in possession of it. That's how I took his statement, though again he doesn't actually say that.
As for the material (the sections of the book are not copiable, so screen shots):
So, Smith a radio engineer identified the chunk as coming from space and possibly from a large spacecraft. When actual materials experts examined it though they disagreed:
It seems Smith and his Ottawa UFO club disagreed with the CARDE:
Sound like a report of a meteorite, but it seems the locals didn't know about it, though they did know about a hunk of rusty metal. And Smith's "Research Group" didn't recover it, local beachcomber did so they could sell it as scrap:
The chunk, which was found in the river, is not kept in a hanger or other Canadian government location, but in front of the Ottawa Flying Saucer Club's HQ:
And even the wording of that is misleading, as the chunk is in the front yard of a retired RCAF Colonel, so his house is the club's HQ:
So, how is it that this is a piece from a UFO? It appears the UFO club tried to connect a Newspaper story with some chunks of metal found along the river and came up with meta-materials form a UFO. Just to be sure, they sent chunks of it for more testing 8 years later:
If it repeatedly identified as industrial waste or slag, why maintain it was from a UFO? Because a psychic told them it was:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/UFOs/2FK54XizXNMC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA130&printsec=frontcover
So, IF this book is correct, Smith's claim that the Canadians have 3000# of meta-material from a UFO that he has analyzed, is in reality 3000# of slag waste that is stored in the front yard of a guy from the Ottawa Flying Saucer Club, that KNOWS it's from a huge UFO, because a psychic confirmed it.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
Just to follow up on the above post. The 3000# of meta-material matched almost identically a description of slag waste from the foundry near Quebec (again using screen shots):
In addition, if one wanted to travel to distant solar systems perhaps a material easily broken apart with a hammer isn't the best material to build one's spacecraft out of:
Apparently, this is how one samples pieces of a crashed UFO:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/UFOs/2FK54XizXNMC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA130&printsec=frontcover
I wonder if a piece of this slag waste is what Smith was showing to Admerial Knowles? Though Smith claims he got the piece he showed Knowles from the USAF, so likely something different.
In addition, if one wanted to travel to distant solar systems perhaps a material easily broken apart with a hammer isn't the best material to build one's spacecraft out of:
Apparently, this is how one samples pieces of a crashed UFO:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/UFOs/2FK54XizXNMC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA130&printsec=frontcover
I wonder if a piece of this slag waste is what Smith was showing to Admerial Knowles? Though Smith claims he got the piece he showed Knowles from the USAF, so likely something different.
Mendel
Senior Member.
Oh ye of little faith! Clearly, we need to invest in breakthrough research of cast-iron steampunk spaceships—or, alternately, time machine counterweights. Best be safe and research both!
Duke
Senior Member.
Ok, I finally received and have read the book "The Boys from Topside" credited to Wilbert B Smith. Upfront let me say that, other than reading what was written here about the book, I purposely avoided researching the book, its contents, and/or any reviews. I wanted to go in with as few expectations or preconceived ideas as possible.
In the big picture, the book is not what I expected. Although Smith was credited with writing it, it's actually more of a compendium of stories and articles written by a number of people. Roughly thirty-five of the book's ninety-six pages were written by Smith. The rest of the book is a collection of articles and UFO/alien reports from Canada in the 1950s-1960s.
Over eleven chapters, Smith related everything from his biography to his beliefs about aliens, or "space brothers" as he calls them. Yes, there is a brief discussion (two pages) about Project Magnet, but most of what he wrote about is more philosophical and sounded like a first cut of the Star Trek/Star Fleet primer. Think intergalactic values enforced by what he dubbed a "cosmic police force." Of course no evidence of any such group was presented, just lots of generalities and suppositions. They sound like nice folks.
I found the rest of the book more interesting than Smith's ramblings. There is a fairly detailed article of the mystery metal chunk found in Ottawa in 1960, This has been discussed previously in this thread. Lots of metallurgy, with the bottom line (as far as I could tell) being it was a composition of manganese steel that did not correspond to any commercially available manganese steel in the early 1960s. An independent analysis/report included in the article does point out the possibility of the metal having been developed by either the US or USSR for use in their space programs.
The most entertaining part of the book is a fanciful story written by a gent named Arthur H Matthews. Matthews is taken aboard the Venusian mothership X-12 where he is greeted warmly by the physically attractive (and some nude) male/female crew. He is bilocated to Venus, given a ride in a scout craft, and entrusted with the knowledge Tesla was a Venusian. As related, this was just one of a number of his encounters.
There is a brief article written by a RCAF fighter pilot who, along the other three pilots in his flight, saw and photographed a UFO near Vancouver in 1956. Well written eyewitness report with a copy of one of his photos. Unfortunately, the reproducted photo is not of good quality and only shows a glowing, sorta saucer shaped white blob.
The rest of the book is a series of UFO reports from throughout Canada from the late 60s. They run the gambit of the usual stereotypical UFO sightings, but does include one where a group of kids physically held down one of their playmates as she was being levitated into a large craft shaped like a package of cigarettes.
The book was a real mishmash of ideas, stories, and claims. Very disjointed and poorly edited. It was put out by the Ottawa New Science Club (a group Smith helped form) in 1969....seven years after Smith's 1962 death. Anyone who considered paying the big bucks quoted for this publication on the various internet book sites, be glad you didn't.
In the big picture, the book is not what I expected. Although Smith was credited with writing it, it's actually more of a compendium of stories and articles written by a number of people. Roughly thirty-five of the book's ninety-six pages were written by Smith. The rest of the book is a collection of articles and UFO/alien reports from Canada in the 1950s-1960s.
Over eleven chapters, Smith related everything from his biography to his beliefs about aliens, or "space brothers" as he calls them. Yes, there is a brief discussion (two pages) about Project Magnet, but most of what he wrote about is more philosophical and sounded like a first cut of the Star Trek/Star Fleet primer. Think intergalactic values enforced by what he dubbed a "cosmic police force." Of course no evidence of any such group was presented, just lots of generalities and suppositions. They sound like nice folks.
I found the rest of the book more interesting than Smith's ramblings. There is a fairly detailed article of the mystery metal chunk found in Ottawa in 1960, This has been discussed previously in this thread. Lots of metallurgy, with the bottom line (as far as I could tell) being it was a composition of manganese steel that did not correspond to any commercially available manganese steel in the early 1960s. An independent analysis/report included in the article does point out the possibility of the metal having been developed by either the US or USSR for use in their space programs.
The most entertaining part of the book is a fanciful story written by a gent named Arthur H Matthews. Matthews is taken aboard the Venusian mothership X-12 where he is greeted warmly by the physically attractive (and some nude) male/female crew. He is bilocated to Venus, given a ride in a scout craft, and entrusted with the knowledge Tesla was a Venusian. As related, this was just one of a number of his encounters.
There is a brief article written by a RCAF fighter pilot who, along the other three pilots in his flight, saw and photographed a UFO near Vancouver in 1956. Well written eyewitness report with a copy of one of his photos. Unfortunately, the reproducted photo is not of good quality and only shows a glowing, sorta saucer shaped white blob.
The rest of the book is a series of UFO reports from throughout Canada from the late 60s. They run the gambit of the usual stereotypical UFO sightings, but does include one where a group of kids physically held down one of their playmates as she was being levitated into a large craft shaped like a package of cigarettes.
The book was a real mishmash of ideas, stories, and claims. Very disjointed and poorly edited. It was put out by the Ottawa New Science Club (a group Smith helped form) in 1969....seven years after Smith's 1962 death. Anyone who considered paying the big bucks quoted for this publication on the various internet book sites, be glad you didn't.
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Rationalman
Member
"Unfortunately, the reproducted photo is not of good quality and only shows a glowing, sorta saucer shaped white blob." No! Say it isn't so?
Duke
Senior Member.
http://psican.org/index.php/ufological-information/146-best-ufo-photo-canada
Here's a far superior (color) copy of the UFO photograph taken by RCAF Sabre pilot, RJ Chilerhose. The photo in the book was black and white and reproduced on rather cheap, pulpy paper just a few steps up from newspaper stock.
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NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
Thanks for the summery Duke! It was hard to tell what the book was from the few descriptions of it. I got that Smith wrote parts of it and that it was complied after his death. The ONSC was clearly obsessed with their pile of foundry slag.
Gotta like the kinky Venusians. They show up in other stories and threads on here like this one with a couple of randy aliens:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/alien-dna-after-sexual-encounter.12070/
Duke
Senior Member.
I few comments about acquiring the book and its heritage:
1) I've used the interlibrary loan system through my local public library for at least 40 years. A conservative guess would be I've borrowed well over 200 books through that process. This book was the first I was ever made to pay a fee ($6.50) to borrow. This particular copy came from the library of the University of Mississippi.
2) Judging from the photo of Smith on the back cover of the book, he bore a striking resemblance to veteran TV character actor Barry Russo. Russo is probably best know for having played a number of characters in the original "Star Trek" series, including Commodore Bob Wesley in the AI runs amok episode "The Ultimate Computer."
3) The book was published by "Saucerian Books" from Clarksburg, WV in 1969. For those unfamiliar with this publishing house, it was founded/owned by "golden age" ufologist Gray Barker. Skeptic Barker was the "clown prince of ufology," known as much for the pranks and hoaxes he perpetrated on others in field as for his "serious" flying saucer books/articles. He is credited with inventing the MIB term/phenomena, and is probably responsible for at least some of "high strangeness" experienced by John Keel during his visits to WV while researching Mothman.
Barker's papers/correspondence are available for public review in the "Barker Collection" in a small library in West Virginia.
