Why does JFK's Head go back after he's shot from the back? [warning: contains gore]

Status
Not open for further replies.

neverknwo

Member
You are not seeing it snapped forward either.

Kennedy's "snapping back" is probably just a muscular spasm. Shooting things does not throw them around like that. Large animal jerk around after you shoot them because of their muscles.

Every animal shot in the head I've seen was limp as spaghetti before they hit the ground.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

neverknwo

Member
And what about in the 0.5 seconds after they were shot.

Movie physics represents exaggerated expectations, not reality.

Than maybe this illustration and seeing what the kenetic energy from a .45 acp ballistics test resembling a human body being thrown around isn't an exaggeration?

 

neverknwo

Member
What point are you making here?
Because you just told me shooting things does not throw them around and I'm offering evidence it does.
I'm no expert but I do know the how the ballistics from a high powered rifle doesn't have the same amount of kinetic energy to throw things around like the kinetic energy from a larger caliber round. The 'No country for Old Men' meme is no exaggeration when it comes to dropping cattle at the slaughter yard.

You are not seeing it snapped forward either.

Kennedy's "snapping back" is probably just a muscular spasm. Shooting things does not throw them around like that. Large animal jerk around after you shoot them because of their muscles.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
"like that".

Kennedy is basically flailing backwards, his arm raises up. A block of ballistics gel wobbling around is very different to a 170 pound dead man.
 

lee h oswald

Banned
Banned
No, what is "Bush Physics"? Google does not provide any likely answers.

A sub-set of Bush Science. Obomber promised to make it go away - like so many other promises - no more torture gulag, just a lil'un (just for laughs); Yes We Can! He said. But no-one asked Yes We Can What? (Obviously wasn't enough room on the banner for all that detail). He's a damn fine liar, though. I give him that. Bushiness as usual then.....



  1. [*]Scientists: Bush Distorts Science - Wired
    www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2004/02/62339‎
    18 Feb 2004 - A group of influential scientists says the Bush administration repeatedly misuses or distorts scientific findings to suit its political agenda ...
    [*]Scientists horrified by Bush's Bad Science • The Register
    www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/12/bush_bad_science/‎
    12 Jul 2004 - What started as a group of 62 scientists fighting what they saw as Bad Science being practiced by the Bush administration has now bloated to a ...
    [*]Bush's Misuse of Science : Scientific Integrity in Policymaking
    www.webexhibits.org/bush/‎
    Scientific Integrity in Policymaking: An Investigation into the Bush Administration s Misuse of Science.
    [*]

    [*]Scientists Say Bush Stifles Science and Lets Global Leadership Slip ...
    www.livescience.com/9574-scientists-bush-stifles-science-lets-global-lead...‎
    30 Jan 2008 - In his final State of the Union address, President George W. Bush devoted several lines to science and technology topics. He called for ...
    [*]The NIST WTC 7 Report:: Bush Science reaches its peak
    www.911review.com/articles/ryan/NIST_WTC7.html‎
    10 Sep 2008 - Just so, the Bush Administration asked its scientists at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) for an explanation as to what ...
    [*]

    [*]NRDC: The Junk Science of George W. Bush by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
    www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/science/rfk.asp‎
    The Record: Examples of the Bush administration's systematic distortion of science to serve political ends. Words of Concern: Scientists, newspapers and policy ...
    Content from External Source
 

Attachments

  • upload_2013-7-26_22-0-4.jpeg
    upload_2013-7-26_22-0-4.jpeg
    1.9 KB · Views: 450
  • upload_2013-7-26_22-0-5.jpeg
    upload_2013-7-26_22-0-5.jpeg
    1.9 KB · Views: 480
  • upload_2013-7-26_22-0-5.jpeg
    upload_2013-7-26_22-0-5.jpeg
    2.1 KB · Views: 469
  • upload_2013-7-26_22-0-5.jpeg
    upload_2013-7-26_22-0-5.jpeg
    2 KB · Views: 412
  • upload_2013-7-26_22-0-5.jpeg
    upload_2013-7-26_22-0-5.jpeg
    1.9 KB · Views: 499
  • upload_2013-7-26_22-0-5.jpeg
    upload_2013-7-26_22-0-5.jpeg
    4.6 KB · Views: 440

lee h oswald

Banned
Banned
"like that".

Kennedy is basically flailing backwards, his arm raises up. A block of ballistics gel wobbling around is very different to a 170 pound dead man.

Flailing? Flailing?!

A block of ballistics gel wobbling around is very different to a 170 pound dead man.

What about a water melon on a shelf?
 
Last edited:

neverknwo

Member
You know what the point is? It's about illustrating the principle of kinetic energy of a .45 cal bullet hitting a block off gel on a table top a few yards away.
That block of gel could easily represent jfk's head on his shoulders being thrown around after he was hit and flailed backwards.
 
Last edited:

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
You know what the point is? It's about illustrating the principle of kinetic energy of a .45 cal bullet hitting a block off gel on a table top a few yards away.
That block of gel could easily represent jfk's head on his shoulders being thrown around after he was hit and flailed backwards.

And why not the Melon? Why not the dummy used in the proper test?

These things serve only to illustrate principles. The gel test does not seem to demonstrate anything related. The block does not moved backwards at all, it jerks vertically upwards, and wobbles around like crazy. Physically it's a radically different situation regarding the impact, as there's no skull, and no exit.
 

JeffreyNotGeoffrey

Active Member
This is circular. Mythbusters already showed getting shot does not move you around. A half gram bullet will not move a full sized man. That is regular physics.
 

lee h oswald

Banned
Banned
Yes, flailing. Arm swinging.


Also different. But illustrates a principle. I was asking what what the point of the gel was. What was it supposed to illustrate?

The 'principle' that says it's 'quite likely' a thing that gets shot will fly back in the direction the bullet arrived from?
Or is it 'very likely', or 'not very likely', or '50-50'? Or 'other'? Still waiting on that estimate (I did ask) because it matters how many times these 'experiments' were done, doesn't it? If we're going to call it 'scientific' it needs to be repeated, say, 500 times (for starters), yes? And observations made and recorded, etc. etc., ie. science. Log results and compare - and repeat - - good, honest science; man, it's good! But I can't help the sneaking feeling, and it's just a feeling, that if someone aimed a gun in my face and pulled - my face would go with the flow (scientific equivocation: more often than not).


[edit: and please line up the zap vid to the 'flailing backwards' arms section - ta.]
 
Last edited:

Cairenn

Senior Member.
But the gel is not attached to a spine and muscles and ligaments and a nervous system.

Try reading this.


Now you are ready. The next step is the important one. This is the kill. You want to do it properly and with conviction. If you mess up now then the animal will suffer. You don't want it to suffer and neither do I. If you don't think that you can go through with it then just put the bird down and go and seek help from someone else. If you think you can do it:

  • Raise the bird up with your right hand and gripping tightly pull down with the left hand. You will feel a sort of pop and the head will no longer be connected to the spine. Pull down a bit more but not so much as you are pulling the head off the bird...that is messy.
At this point the chicken will start thrashing about. This is quite normal. This nerves. The birds eyes may even be open and it is blinking and tongue moving. Don't look at that end. Hold the bird still suspended in close to your body. You will feel the neck engorge with blood and within two minutes it will stop moving completely.

If you were to have chosen to decapitate the bird instead of pulling the neck then the bird would be thrashing or even running around spraying blood everywhere 'like a headless chicken' (another distinctive English phrase) for a couple of minutes. If you had decided to 'wring the neck' then the chances are the bird would still not be dead and would be suffering.
Content from External Source
http://peterdickinson.hubpages.com/hub/How-To-Kill-A-Chicken
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The 'principle' that says it's 'quite likely' a thing that gets shot will fly back in the direction the bullet arrived from?
Or is it 'very likely', or 'not very likely', or '50-50'? Or 'other'? Still waiting on that estimate (I did ask) because it matters how many times these 'experiments' were done, doesn't it? If we're going to call it 'scientific' it needs to be repeated, say, 500 times (for starters), yes? And observations made and recorded, etc. etc., ie. science. Log results and compare - and repeat - - good, honest science; man, it's good! But I can't help the sneaking feeling, and it's just a feeling, that if someone aimed a gun in my face and pulled - my face would go with the flow (scientific equivocation: more often than not).

Depends on the thing, and the bullet type. But with the bullet used by LHO here I don't there would be much movement either way. The melon moved back towards the gun because it was not attached to anything. A human head would likely not move much.

There's some research into blood and brains backspattering, see:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=head++backspatter

There's some very complex physics going on, and I think it would be a mistake to try to simplify it.
 

JeffreyNotGeoffrey

Active Member
Seriosly did you never see the episide OR the clips posted here?
Well to rehash they placed apig carcass (about the weight of an average man) on some sort of loose rigging. The pig was meant to fall off with minimal force. The crew shot at various distances and with various weapons. The only time the pig moved I think was with a 50 cal when the pig had a metal plate reinforcing it. Simple physics. Something that weighs 1/1000 of your weight will have a near impossible time moving you almost no matter the force.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
A think a key point here (which was brought up earlier), is that it is impossible for the bullet to impart more force than the kickback of the gun. And since it's not hitting something solid, then only a fraction of that force is imparted, and then given the explosion of matter in all directions, it's clearly not all imparted in the direction of travel.
 

JeffreyNotGeoffrey

Active Member
A think a key point here (which was brought up earlier), is that it is impossible for the bullet to impart more force than the kickback of the gun. And since it's not hitting something solid, then only a fraction of that force is imparted, and then given the explosion of matter in all directions, it's clearly not all imparted in the direction of travel.


Thank you Mick x 10. I was about to say kick back is always greater than the force imparted to the target barring elaborate recoil reduction systems. Basically if the target gets lifted up and thrown a foot, the shooter would be kicked back more than a foot. Equal and opposite reactions minus force depletion from friction/air resistance.
 

JeffreyNotGeoffrey

Active Member
Also to give a hint about proportions involved the bullet is roughly 1/48 of a pound (10g=1/3 an oz approx and there are 16 oz/lb). So an object equal to .0208lb versus 170 lb. The bullet was less than .0001 as a fraction of JFK's weigh. Or verbally it was one ten thousandth of JFK. To significantly move JFK it would need force not available to guns then or now. We are talking physics possible maybe in the Mass Effect universe (sci fi videogame)
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Also to give a hint about proportions involved the bullet is roughly 1/48 of a pound (10g=1/3 an oz approx and there are 16 oz/lb). So an object equal to .0208lb versus 170 lb. The bullet was less than .0001 as a fraction of JFK's weigh. Or verbally it was one ten thousandth of JFK. To significantly move JFK it would need force not available to guns then or now. We are talking physics possible maybe in the Mass Effect universe (sci fi videogame)

It's not that simple, but you can use the simple Newtonian calculations to get an outside figure for the maximum amount of momentum imparted if the bullet were to have cleanly stopped inside the head. It will not tell you what happened, but can tell you absolute limits of what would be possible.

A 10g bullet hits something, let's say at its muzzle velocity of about 2000 feet/second.

If it hit a 77kg (170 pound) human, hanging from a rope, the resultant imparted velocity would be /7700 the speed of the bullet, or 2000/7700 = about 0.25 feet per second.

If it were a human head, about 5kg, again hanging from a rope, then it would accelerate the head at 2000/500 = 4 feet per second - about walking speed.

Remember these are absolute maximum speeds, under perfect conditions.

But of course the head is attached to the body, and the body was sat in a seat, and the bullet did not stop in the head. So really we are talking about a very small fraction of these numbers.
 

neverknwo

Member
If this was the specs for the bullets LHO used they produced 95 pounds of Kinetic Energy.
Win .270
grains 160
velocity 3060
Energy 3325.95 ft.lbs
Power Factor 489.60 /1000 weight*velocity

Kinetic Energy Animation
Content from External Source
Formula used:
Energy = .5 * weight * velocity^2 / 7000 / 32.175

Where weight is in grains, and velocity is in feet/second.

7000 is grains per pound, and 32.175 is acceleration due to gravity.

It can be re-written:
Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450

Power = weight * velocity / 1000
 
Last edited by a moderator:

lee h oswald

Banned
Banned
Before the kill shot, has he already been hit, as he's slumped over and Jackie looks concerned?

Looks very likely, doesn't it.

Wiki page on this isn't bad, actually. Here's a bit:

Acoustical evidence
According to the House Select Committee on Assassinations, a Dictabelt recording of the Dallas Police Department radio dispatch transmissions from November 22, 1963 was analyzed to "resolve questions concerning the number, timing, and origin of the shots fired in Dealey Plaza".[112] The Committee concluded that the source of the recording was from an open microphone on the motorcycle of H.B. McLain escorting the motorcade[113] and that "the scientific acoustical evidence established a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy."[114]

The acoustical analysis firm hired by the Committee recommended that the Committee conduct an acoustical reconstruction of the assassination in Dealey Plaza to determine if any of the six impulse patterns on the dispatch tape were fired from the Texas School Book Depository or the grassy knoll. The reconstruction would entail firing from two locations in Dealey Plaza—the depository and the knoll—at particular target locations and recording the sounds through numerous microphones. The purpose was to determine if the sequences of impulses recorded during the reconstruction would match any of those on the dispatch tape. If so, it would be possible to determine if the impulse patterns on the dispatch tape were caused by shots fired during the assassination from shooter locations in the depository and on the knoll.[115]

In 1978, at the behest of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, members of the Dallas Police Pistol Team participated in an acoustical reconstruction by firing both rifles and pistols from the locations selected by the researchers. During the acoustical reconstruction, the Dallas Police marksmen had no difficulty hitting the targets. The House Select Committee's firearms experts "...testified that given the distance and angle from the sixth floor window to the location of the President's limousine, it would have been easier to use the open iron sights." The Warren Commission tests had been carried out on the assumption that Oswald, who they and the Committee concluded fired the shots, used the telescopic sight.[115]

An article which appeared in Science & Justice, a quarterly publication of Britain's Forensic Science Society, found there was a 96% certainty, based on analysis of audio recordings made during the assassination, that a shot was fired from "the grassy knoll" in front of and to the right of the President's limousine.[116][117]

Medical evidence
Some assassination researchers have pointed to testimony or medical evidence suggesting that at least one of the shots fired at President Kennedy came from a location other than the Book Depository.[118][119] Roy Kellerman, the Secret Service agent seated next to the driver in the presidential limousine, testified that he saw a 5-inch-diameter (130 mm) hole in the back right-hand side of the President's head.[120] Clint Hill, the Secret Service agent who sheltered the President with his body on the way to the hospital, said: "The right rear portion of his head was missing."[121] Later, in a National Geographic Channel documentary, Hill described the wound as a "gaping hole above his right ear, about the size of my palm."[122]

Robert McClelland, one of the Parkland Hospital doctors who attended to Kennedy, testified to the Warren Commission that the back right part of Kennedy's head was blown out, with posterior cerebral tissue and some cerebellar tissue missing.[123][124]

Some critics skeptical of the official "single bullet theory" state that the trajectory of the bullet, which hit Kennedy above the right shoulder blade and passed through his neck (according to the autopsy), would have had to change course to pass through Connally's rib cage and wrist.[125][126][page needed] Kennedy's death certificate, signed by his personal physician Dr. George Burkley, locates the bullet at the third thoracic vertebra—which some claim is too low to have exited his throat.[127][128] Moreover, the bullet was traveling downward, since the shooter was in a sixth floor window. The autopsy descriptive sheet displays a diagram of Kennedy's body with the same low placement at the third thoracic vertebra.[129] The hole in back of Kennedy's shirt and jacket are also claimed to support a wound too low to be consistent with the "single bullet theory".[130][better source needed][131][132][better source needed]

On the day of the assassination, Nellie Connally was seated in the presidential car next to her husband, Governor John Connally. In her book From Love Field: Our Final Hours, Nellie Connally said that she believed that her husband was hit by a bullet that was separate from the two that hit Kennedy.[133]

There is conflicting testimony about the autopsy performed on Kennedy's body, particularly as to when the examination of his brain took place, who was present, and whether or not the photos submitted as evidence are the same as those taken during the examination.[134] Douglas Horne, the Assassination Record Review Board's chief analyst for military records, said he was "90 to 95% certain" that the photographs in the National Archives are not of President Kennedy's brain. Supporting Horne was Dr. Gary Aguilar who stated: "According to Horne’s findings, the second brain—which showed an exit wound in the front—allegedly replaced Kennedy's real brain—which revealed much greater damage to the rear, consistent with an exit wound and thus evidence of a shot from the front."[135]

Paul O'Connor, a laboratory technologist who assisted in the autopsy of President Kennedy, claimed that the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital was conducted in obedience to a high command.[136][137]

In his book JFK and the Unspeakable, James Douglass cites Dr. Pierre Finck’s testimony at the trial of Clay Shaw as evidence that Finck was "...a reluctant witness to the military control over the doctors' examination of the president's body".[138][139]

Oswald's marksmanship
The Warren Commission examined the capabilities of the Carcano rifle and ammunition, as well as Oswald's military training and post-military experience, and determined that Oswald had the ability to fire three shots within a time span of 4.8 to 5.6 seconds.[140] According to their report, an army specialist using Oswald's rifle was able to duplicate the feat and even improved on the time. The report also states that the Army Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch test fired Oswald's rifle 47 times and found that it was "quite accurate", comparing it to the accuracy of an M-14 rifle. Also contained in the Commission report is testimony by Marine Corps Major Eugene Anderson confirming that Oswald's military records show that he qualified as "sharpshooter" in 1956. But this is confronted with more detailed record of his shooting abilities. According to official Marine Corps records Oswald was tested in shooting, scoring 212 in December 1956 (slightly above the minimum for qualification as a sharpshooter - the intermediate category), but in May 1959 scoring only 191 (barely earning the lower designation of marksman - the lowest category of skilled shooter, but still above undesignated shooters). He never approached the highest marksmanship category in the Marine Corps - the Expert. Conspiracy theorists such as Walt Brown and authors such as Richard H. Popkin contend that Oswald was a notoriously poor shot, his rifle was inaccurate, and that no one has ever been able to duplicate his ability to fire three shots within the time frame given by the Warren Commission.[141][142] FBI marksman Robert Frazier who tested the rifle in two sets of tests testified to the Warren Commission that he could not reach the 5.6 second mark for firing three shots and all his shots fired five inches high and five inches to the right due to an uncorrectable deficiency in the telescopic sight.[143]
Content from External Source
Not to mention that after I went to Russia and came back 'an avowed communist', The State Dept. (ahem) helped me out with a 'repatriation grant' - and yeah, I was a bit of 'a loner'....apart from being married with two kids.....I could've explained it all at trial - if only they hadn't let that nasty Jack....y'know....and then all those other witnesses who came to premature ends, even including Jack himself and four of his dancing girls from his nightclub.... etc. etc. etc.....

To suggest - and promote evidence Oswald 'could' have acted alone - that there was no conspiracy is quite mind boggling - 'lawyers' and their advocate positions, eh? What can you do?
 

lee h oswald

Banned
Banned
I'm not trying to simplify it. I'm trying to explain a complex situation.

You seem to be simplifying it into "if you hit something it will go in the direction you hit it", which is the over-simplification here.

The over-simplification here is putting up a video of a melon being shot once and a video of a dummy being shot once. Then making a case around it. Like said, let's see some proper scientific studies - not selected one-off stunts designed for what exactly? To bolster the debunker's pre-existing position; to get the unwary to come wade in The Swamp of Naysay. I don't want to 'over simplify', but think Jackie was telling Jack a joke, and when she delivered the punchline at the exact same moment I pulled the trigger - Jack threw his head back, laughing and head-butted my bullet coming the other way - which obviously made matters worse. Seems plausible. I wonder what the joke was?
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Before the kill shot, has he already been hit, as he's slumped over and Jackie looks concerned?
Yes, in the Zapruder film the shot that hits both Kennedy and the Governor ("magic bullet") happens when Kennedy is just emerging from behind the street sign.
 

Timothy O'Brien

New Member
So why does the melon here not fly away from the shooter? Why does it move towards the shooter?
[imgsize=100]https://www.metabunk.org/files/JFK's-Head-Movement2.gif[/imgsize]
Simple physics answers why the melon moves backward. Newtonian Physics. The power from the bullet transfers to the table and bounces back into the melon, forcing it back.

Kennedy's head was on a pivot. The force of the round, if it came from the rear of the head, would have forced the head forward. But the force came from the front and forced the head rearward.
 

Inti

Senior Member.
Simple physics answers why the melon moves backward. Newtonian Physics. The power from the bullet transfers to the table and bounces back into the melon, forcing it back.

Kennedy's head was on a pivot. The force of the round, if it came from the rear of the head, would have forced the head forward. But the force came from the front and forced the head rearward.
Can I be clear what you are saying? I think it is that the force of the bullet hitting the melon is transmitted to the table on which it is resting. Somehow, although the melon is clearly not fixed to the table? How? And then you think the table bends back away from the gun a little, then recoils, presumably spring like, and somehow throws the melon forward.

How does that make any sense? You mention Newtonian physics. Well, the force transmitted backwards from bullet to the melon in your model must be similar and at least as great as that which is released as the kinetic energy of the springy forward rebound. So why does the backward force not move the melon back off the table at all? While the forward for , no greater, throws it violently forwards. It doesn't make any sense at all, does it? Is the friction between melon and table huge in the first phase, and magically much less in the second?

That's before we notice that there is no detectable movement of the table or its support in the video, in either direction.

So we have your nonphysical explanation, or the one above which explains what we see perfectly well. Which to believe?
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I'm going to guess that the melon expands a bit with the impact of the bullet and therefor pushes against the table a bit, which "pushes back", making a flat spot on the melon(and a tiny dent in the table?), which then reforms its roundness and 'springs" back against the table.... a bit. Hard to visualize, but there is a lot going on in a very short time.
 

Bfahome

Member
The bullet penetrating the melon doesn't impart much rightwards force to the melon, but in its journey through the melon it would cause a lot of internal pressure. Complicated ballistics aside, guts of the melon exploding towards the right would logically lead to the melon being pushed to the left a bit. Equal and opposite forces.
 

MicahJava

New Member
You are not seeing it snapped forward either.

Kennedy's "snapping back" is probably just a muscular spasm. Shooting things does not throw them around like that. Large animal jerk around after you shoot them because of their muscles.

Surprisingly, Kennedy did not actually die immediately from the head shot, therefore his head snap can not be a last dying spasm.
 

Nada Truther

Active Member
Could someone please explain how a shot fired from the front would make such an explosive entrance wound? I believe the documentary that Mick pulled the video of the test shot with the red skull and the green matter in post #92, traced the trajectory of the President's "grey matter" from inside his head in the direction away from LHO and in the direction of his bullet path. How can such an explosive force come from the front and make such a mess going in and not make a mess going out. What was the supposed angle of the bullet from the "conspiracy" path (i.e. grassy knoll, stockade fence, etc.)? Has anyone ever lined that up and seen if it would have hit the truck of the limo as it passed through JFK's head? I do not ever remember hearing anything about any damage to the trunk lid? To me that would be real proof of someone other that LHO from some other location.
 

iansnowboard

New Member
So why dheadhe melon here not fly away from the shooter? Why does it move towards the shooter?
[imgsize=100]https://www.metabunk.org/files/JFK's-Head-Movement2.gif[/imgsize]
A melon is not an accurate replacement for a human head (according to the mythbusters). The resistance, mass etc,etc do not reflect the physics. You would need a skull, ballistics gel and a neck/body analog to attach it to. In the high speed of the melon shot you can see the bullet pass through the melon withlittle resistance, then half of its' mass is ejected with the projectile, with the rear half of mass gone it rolls off the tiny pedastal where the only mass remaining causes the orb to roll in the direction of mass. Not at all an accurate analog for reality.
 
Last edited:

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
A melon is not an accurate replacement for a human head (according to the mythbusters). The resistance, mass etc,etc do not reflect the physics. You would need a skull, ballistics gel and a neck/body analog to attach it to. In the high speed of the melon shot you can see the bullet pass through the melon withlittle resistance, then half of its' mass is ejected with the projectile, with the rear half of mass gone it rolls off the tiny pedastal where the only mass remaining causes the orb to roll in the direction of mass. Not at all an accurate analog for reality.
And you base this on what evidence?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top