Questions about the chemtrail theory

[secretschizoid23]

Hello, this is my first post. While I have to admit that over the past two or so years I have been taken in somewhat by the subject of chemtrails, stratospheric aerosol spraying and large-scale geoengineering I still have lots of questions regarding this matter which keeps me very skeptical. I have watched both of Murphy's films and listened to his two hour interview he did on Red Ice radio.

This looks like a good place to come to get a decent debate on some of the questions I have about this issue. People here seem to be quite knowledgeable about the atmospheric physics which is obviously of fundamental importance when trying to understand the variables involved in producing the different types of vapour trails we see in the sky.

I have quite a few questions which I would like to propose over time and I hope to get some helpful responses.

The first one is to do with this idea that the appearance of persistent contrails is a fairly recent phenomenon. I am aware of the photographs from the 40's which show the sky covered in vapor trails produced by the aircraft of the time but at that time the engines were radically different from the ones we have today.

How has the fuel that is used for jet aircraft changed over the passed 60 or so years?

Does anyone know if the different types of fuel used by different jet aircraft determine (obviously along with other factors) whether a plane will produce temporary or persistent contrails? And also is there any information available on the different types of fuel being used by different planes?

 

[Mick West]

Welcome!

The fuel for jet/turbine engines has not really changed. It's just kerosene, a straightforward hydrocarbon. Propellor engines use AVGas, which is basically leaded gasoline.

The thing is that that's seeking to explain something that has not really happened. Contrails have NOT changed. Jet engines are more efficient now, so form contrails in a slightly wider range of operating conditions, and they are also bigger and more powerful, so make bigger contrails. And there's a lot more air traffic at contrail altitude now, both because of there being more flights, and because of changes in the routes and altitudes at which those flights operate in.

 

[Belfrey]

Secretschizoid, you might want to take some time to click through the Pre-1995 Persistent Contrail thread.

 

[Jay Reynolds]

It is very satisfyng to see someone coming here looking for more info after watching Michael J. Murphy's videos. The OP seeks information which was not actually discussed in those videos, even though it underpins the whole premise of chemtrails. It might interest you to know that a close personal friend of Murphy's disagreed with about this premise. Murphy recorded hours of debunking chemtrails, but rejected everything his friend told him and omitted it all from his so-called "documentary". A well-made documentary faces up to criticism and shows opposing viewpoints in a balanced way. WITWATS was a 'mockumentary' meant to persuade and designed to create an emotional response.

 

[TWCobra]

Here is some information about Jet fuel you might find interesting.

http://www.trencome.com/aviationfuelindustry.htm

 

[secretschizoid23]

Thank you everybody, there are some excellent links and threads posted in reply which I will take the time to read properly and understand.

I enjoyed the photographs from pre-1995, they were a real eye opener and a useful resource for showing others that I know who have maybe let their beliefs cloud (sorry!) their critical thinking and investigative motivations.

I am very interested in fully understanding the science behind the formation of contrails and am determined to get a decent grasp of this in order to discuss the subject of geoengineering (which I am fascinated by) sensibly. I do however feel the technical nature of the explanations are a challenge which will lose many early on, especially those who have already made up their minds about chemtrails etc. The photos really do speak for themselves.

This is a very broad question but what do people think Michael J Murphy's motivations really are for producing these films? I get the impression he is ultimately someone who believes in what he is doing (it also seemed to me from some of the language in his interviews that he is quietly devoutly christian - not that I have anything against this but it may be an influence on his worldview in terms of good & evil etc).

There are many interviewees and 'expert' witnesses in the films who are just as convinced that this aerosol spraying is really occuring. They don't come across as either ignorant people or have invested interests in promoting the idea.

How has this meme of chemtrails taken on such momentum over the last decade or so?

It is the kind of thing that now labelled with that talismanic term 'conspiracy theory' which makes it off limits for open, mainstream debate for anybody with a reputation to uphold.

One thing that I think is often overlooked when talking about the conspiracy is that maybe the chemtrail meme was the conspiracy in the first place! It has turned into a monster trap for those who are willing to give the so called New World Order/Illuminati elite global controllers all the omnipotent power they require. I get the feeling that chemtrails themselves are the psy-op and all that needed to be done was sow the seed of the idea and let the internet do the rest. Either way it would confirm to the conspiracy crowd that the NWO exist!

Now again I am sitting on the fence with these ideas because I do not want to invest in any beliefs. I just welcome healthy skepticism and dialectical conversation. Interesting times indeed!

 

[TWCobra]

How has this meme of chemtrails taken on such momentum over the last decade or so?

The Internet. Very few conspiracy theories lend themselves so readily to the visuals you can see on the web.

Most CT believers I have talked to believe they are trying to stop something bad. They believe they are the good guys in a struggle of good v Evil which is a very immersive belief. I have one or two friendships with them. Most are people I could be friends with in real life. The overwhelming trait I find common to most is ignorance of aviation. There are very good simple reasons for everything they see that have nothing to do with a monstrous conspiracy... well I find them simple because aviation is my livelihood. I have to accept though that others find it baffling.

The idea for instance, that jets may need to dump fuel in order to land safely. The ideas some people have about that amaze me. Some find it absolutely inconceivable, where to me it is something I may have to do as a matter of course.

You have to be patient.

 

[HappyMonday]

The Internet. Very few conspiracy theories lend themselves so readily to the visuals you can see on the web.

Most CT believers I have talked to believe they are trying to stop something bad. They believe they are the good guys in a struggle of good v Evil which is a very immersive belief. I have one or two friendships with them. Most are people I could be friends with in real life. The overwhelming trait I find common to most is ignorance of aviation. There are very good simple reasons for everything they see that have nothing to do with a monstrous conspiracy... well I find them simple because aviation is my livelihood. I have to accept though that others find it baffling.

The idea for instance, that jets may need to dump fuel in order to land safely. The ideas some people have about that amaze me. Some find it absolutely inconceivable, where to me it is something I may have to do as a matter of course.

You have to be patient.

I'd go a step further and say it's also fuelled by the fact that you can 'look up' and see it.Research chemtrails online,get scared,look up and see what you believe are chemtrails,get more scared,return to internet.

Self reinforcing.

 

[Jay Reynolds]

This is a very broad question but what do people think Michael J Murphy's motivations really are for producing these films? I get the impression he is ultimately someone who believes in what he is doing (it also seemed to me from some of the language in his interviews that he is quietly devoutly christian - not that I have anything against this but it may be an influence on his worldview in terms of good & evil etc).

I've looked into this question.

On three occasions, the last of which was at the conference during the WHYWATS Q&A, Murphy has gone through a discussion which boils down to:
I am limited in what I can say, because if I told people the whole truth, it would scare them away. I don't tell them everything I know because they need to be introduced to "deeper truths" gradually

He has used the words "infiltrate" and "gateway" in these comments. At the Q&A he was responding to an alien believer question, and I listened to a radio interview with Kerry Cassidy which was referred to and he said the same thing. He also has used this rhetoric when speaking about deceiving public officials to get his 'ordinances' passed. I don't like this sort of ends justifies the means behavior and have found that those who use it have little regard for either the truth or for those they lie to.
It gets to being a habit for them, especially if it works, and corrupts them.

Where is he going with this?
Now that the ball is rolling, is this about a way to make a living?
Is it a WACLA cult thing, or is this just coming from him,from the heart?
Does it go into anti-semitism or alien stuff?
Is he just pandering to the fringe because he needs their support?
Is this a personal agenda, a WACLA group agenda, or is there someone unknown pulling his strings?

You need to hear what he says about a conspiracy thousands of years long in close company with the newagers, and why he can't get into it yet:
listen from 43:25 to 50:36
http://projectcamelotportal.com/inte...ard-price.html

The Q&A where he answers the 'alien' question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoRYdLianiY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoRYdLianiY

Much of the backbone of these various conspiracy concepts come from the belief that the ancient aliens of Sumer are somehow still in control. This is clearly demonstrated by how revered David Icke is to these people. They believe that the Rothschild international banking cartel knows this secret hidden alien agenda and that they use it to their advantage to control the world.

This belief also makes hyper competent secret conspiracies very plausible because "They" can do anything they want since they naturally have the latest advance technology.
At public demonstrations the alien agenda program is never brought up because they know that the regular Sheeple aren't ready for it yet and think it will undercut their credibility. So they keep their focus on global banking leaders and keep the alien thing secret for more advance esoteric discussions.

There are many interviewees and 'expert' witnesses in the films who are just as convinced that this aerosol spraying is really occuring. They don't come across as either ignorant people or have invested interests in promoting the idea.

How has this meme of chemtrails taken on such momentum over the last decade or so?[/QUOTE]

You need to carefully look at the vested interests of the individuals.

Original hoaxer Larry Wayne Harris- neo-nazi aryan nations sold book for profit
William Thomas-American AWOL vietnam era moved to Canada
Clifford Carnicom- adopted when military father abandoned him
Rosalind Peterson- disgruntled Federal Employee (filed lawsuit over employment issues)
Francis Mangels- ditto " " "

 

[secretschizoid23]

Thank you again for the useful replies. I think I need to go back and read through the past threads and posts on the main board in order to get up to speed a little. I'll undoubtedly return with more questions, just want to say I really value the responses.

I have recently discovered the online app at planefinder.net which allows you to locate and identify the planes that are flying in your immediate vicinity, regionally and globally. I have also used the app on a friends smartphone which allows you to point the phone at a particular plane, or area in the sky and it gives you all sorts of information on that particular aircraft.

It is a very good visual tool to give an idea of just how many planes are in the air at any one time - seems to be on average upwards of 6000 - and also where they are most concentrated. Is everyone familiar with this software? I feel it would be another thing to help people question the idea in an accessible and simple way.

I know the idea is that civilian and commercial flights rather than military air craft are being used to carry out this aerosol spraying but if this app is accurate it would enable each suspected plane to be fully tracked and identified. Any aircraft seen to be spraying but not identified by the software would;d immediately stand out.

That Project Camelot link didn't work btw, but I'm not sorry because I have difficultly lending credence to anything Cassidy says or does!

 

[Jay Reynolds]

That Project Camelot link didn't work btw, but I'm not sorry because I have difficultly lending credence to anything Cassidy says or does!

I guess they took it down. I have a copy, but his comments were very clse to what he said at the conference.

I know the idea is that civilian and commercial flights rather than military air craft are being used to carry out this aerosol spraying but if this app is accurate it would enable each suspected plane to be fully tracked and identified. Any aircraft seen to be spraying but not identified by the software would;d immediately stand out

.

Be aware that planefinder, flightradar and the phone pointing app have major faults. .
Those particular sites use ADS-B transmitter data which is not yet installed on all planes.
see:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/74...ightradar24-com-vs-Flightaware-for-US-traffic

Flightaware is good, for real research flight explorer requires a downloadable program but is much more functional.
Flight Explorer also offers for sale the archived flight data for any time or place from about 1999, so even old observations can be researched after the fact.

 

[Mick West]

I guess they took it down. I have a copy, but his comments were very clse to what he said at the conference.

You'd copied the shortened version of the link, and not the link itself:
http://projectcamelotportal.com/int...12-michael-murphy-and-paul-richard-price.html
They actually host on Youtube:
​

 

[MikeC]

One thing to remember about contails is that the chemistry that forms water vapour from combustion is the same for both jet fuel (JetA1/Kerosene) and Avgas (petrol) - and is the same for any other hydrocarbon fuel too.

Combusting any of these combines the carbon atoms with oxygen from the atmosphere forming Carbon Dioxide and Carbon Monoxide, and also combines the hydrogen atoms from the fuel with atmospheric oxygen to form water (H2O).

the wiki article on combustion has a bit more of the science - but it is basically CH4 + 2 O2 → CO2 + 2 H2O + energy (obviously for methane CH4, but scale up for any other hydrocarbon)

so the question "has the fuel changed?" or "the fuel isn't the same" is a red herring - any hydrocarbon fuel will make water vapour when burned.

 

[Mick West]

It is a very good visual tool to give an idea of just how many planes are in the air at any one time - seems to be on average upwards of 6000 - and also where they are most concentrated. Is everyone familiar with this software? I feel it would be another thing to help people question the idea in an accessible and simple way.

Also check out my flight visualizer, which shows traffic on a typical day in a nice graphical form:

http://contrailscience.com/interactive-flight-map-visualization/