Germanwings Airbus Crash: Possible Motivations

Brainiachick

Active Member
I had a similar opinion of myself, in that I deluded myself that I was indispensable and irreplaceable and having accrued a large EOD and CIED database in my head, truly felt that 'going sick' would let everyone down.

Regardless of PR campaigns, there remains a stigma attached to mental health issues in the British Military, and I assume this is common in other cliquey professions. I needed a couple of near-misses for me to seek help, and it was actually of great relief that I could stop pretending.

Whilst at the time my future looked bleak, as I felt my value was entirely my experience and the contents of my head, I have since had assistance in raising my 'share-price' in other areas, so there ARE alternative if you look hard enough.

We actually know not much about Mr Lubitz, some details that point to explanations, but if he was secretly on medication, these can have unpleasant side effects, especially if he sourced them by dubious means.

I must say your post has been very enlightening.

I think it is ignorant and unfair to stigmatise mental health issues. Like a close friend of mine with whom I do some family law case would always say to me on receipt of yet another appalling and soul-destroying psych report "Ain't we all crazy?". We are human and subject to emotional difficulties - how we handle it and treat others who may have difficulties is what makes the difference. I am pretty sure if this young man felt he could still have his job despite his mental health issues, he'd probably have been more open with his difficulties and received better support and perhaps avert this tragedy. Like they say, a problem shared is a problem half solved. Having to hide mental health difficulties or any difficulties for that matter only further compounds the underlying problem! On the flip side, what is the aviation industry or any other industry to do? If someone is truly unwell to the point of incapacitation whether physical or mental that would impact on their ability to do their job, the question would be, like you rightly pointed out - "Am I that indispensable, irreplaceable?" The reality is, no one is. The world will go on with or without us - and I learnt that the hard way, as I progressed through my career.

The added pressure brought on Lubitz from his perceived need to hide his issues from his employers could have been an added catalyst. I see this a lot in court proceedings where good, normal parents come into litigation regarding their children and a few years or months down the line having being subjected to unjust scrutiny, innumerable assessments, and unbelievable violation of their human rights, we start to see these hitherto perfectly normal folks break down and disintegrate and have mental health issues that they never had before they were shoved into the pressure cooker of the family court. In these fragile states, these parents will either have to learn to hide their anxiety disorders, depression, PTSD etc which are brought on by constant harassment from Social Services etc - and this includes hiding these symptoms from their doctors which means no treatment or medication is ever prescribed and therefore no evidence of mental health issue is ever recorded in order not to lose custody of their children or tell the truth to the family court and they will immediately be punished by the permanent removal of their children for adoption! In the end, if the litigation is protracted, something always, always gives! We have as a result had very avoidable tragic outcomes where murder/suicide involving infanticide becomes the outcome in a handful of these cases. If the approach was less punitive and fairer, the outcome is always positive. I have had numerous uphill battles where I successfully argued in order to differentiate between psychological/emotional difficulties brought on as a result of vexatious/malicious litigation and underlying serious psychiatric conditions that may undermine good parenting. In each case, the problems are magnified with the inability to openly share one's difficulties fearing that what one loves the most (in this case children) would be removed as a result of this difficulty. So this problem is not restricted to professions only, it spans through the various spheres of human life, societal expectations/misgivings and it all boils down to lack of knowledge/understanding of mental illnesses. It is a fine line and a balancing act but I hope some lessons can be learnt from this tragedy.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
added pressure brought on Lubitz from his perceived need to hide his issues from his employers could have been an added catalyst
it would IF he thought he had issues (that would affect his work). a pretty big IF.

While I absolutely agree with your post regarding stress from 'family services', it kinda seems like comparing apples and oranges. I think a better comparison might be not "normal parents before the scrutiny' but 'parents with mental health issues before the xtra scrutiny'. Because from what little I know, have read, the aviation industry didn't brow beat him into stress as per your example. (unless you think a pilot being able to SEE is an unnecessary criteria to place on pilots).

In a field like aviation, or child protection, a 'let's be more lenient and accepting' (i'm ok, you're ok) attitude can have serious serious drawbacks.

In jobs like aviation I don't think its even "mental health' per se. Any form of stress (or sleep deprivation even) can cause mistakes. and mistakes in a plane can be disastrous.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
In the recent CVR transcript it states that Lubitz put on his O2 mask, which is why they could hear him breathing above the noise of the captain trying to gain entry.

Can you please cite that reference? Because as an airline pilot, I am interested in these sorts of details.
Thanks in advance.

(EDIT to add: I need to include that there is a bit of outrage amongst pilots in the German association about the CVR details being "leaked" so early into any investigation. As a pilot in the United States, where the NTSB has jurisdiction? It is a common-place tradition that the CVR ('Cockpit Voice Recorder') is NEVER made public...the actual audio recordings, that is.

The CVR can be made into a transcript, of course....and released to the public, but ONLY after the full investigation is completed. Normally (under NTSB rules) only certain individuals, which will include certain parties such as family members, and of course NTSB representatives will be able to hear the actual audio.

But....we now live in a world where....do I have to mention it? Very little is "private" anymore.).

No editorial comment, just stating the facts, in 2015.....
 
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Brainiachick

Active Member
In a field like aviation, or child protection, a 'let's be more lenient and accepting' (i'm ok, you're ok) attitude can have serious serious drawbacks.

No one is disputing that severe problems need addressing to avert disasters and tragedies - and my point was certainly not in any way suggesting that aviation did this to Lubitz - and I think that much is clear from the available evidence. However, my point was on the openness with which an individual can expect to discuss their problems without the fear of retribution, stigmatisation, or losing what they hold dear (but to know that they can actually receive support) and the increased risk that need to hide this problem presents to the situation. The benefit of great eyesight is clearly required for most jobs, piloting being one - but a man who is already in a dark place and has suffered serious depressive episode may not immediately evaluate the benefit of laser eye surgery, contact lens, or indeed glasses to restore his eyesight/vision (depending on the type of eye trouble that he had). When an individual has reached rock bottom mentally, it is difficult for an observer who isn't feeling these deep waves of emotions to completely understand the overwhelming power this can have over a person and how it can severely cloud their judgement at that precise moment. I have seen time and time again how easily a mentally vulnerable person's outlook can become so bleak to the point of completely losing perspective - and this is not a question of 'I am OK, you are OK' let's sweep everything under the carpet and then your decision comes back and bites you in the backside. It is a question of commitment and support for a situation and person that has not yet (but has the potential to) crossed the point of no return. My approach is never to mollycoddle but to be practical, pragmatic and bring things back into perspective for that vulnerable individual. Clearly, the best interest of the child must be the paramount consideration of the court and if parenting abilities are severely impaired for whatever reason, that consideration must take precedence - sadly, this isn't usually the case. I am thankful that I have never had suicide or murder happen on my watch in any of my cases and that is partly because I am unafraid to confront the erring party no matter how unpopular my position may be. For that I am thankful, but it takes understanding, putting things back into perspective, and balancing the risks. For parents to be before a family court there are usually precursors which may or may not have anything to do with mental health - though the parents may be perfectly normal parents there might or might not be underlying problems - so I do not believe that I am comparing apples with oranges in this instance. In the end, the needlessly added pressure always adds a catastrophic dimension with disastrous outcomes. Clearly, it is a question of balance and understanding. This or not, Luditz could still very well have done what he has did. I do not condone what he's done - there is a clear difference between suicide and murder.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
In the end, the needlessly added pressure always adds a catastrophic dimension with disastrous outcomes.
i guess its this that i'm having trouble with. none of us have any real facts about Luditz. But we do not know there was any "needlessly added pressure". He wasn't going through the process these parents you have dealings with are already being exposed to. (hence the apples and oranges)

People tend to (in my experience) take that pressure on themselves. Often, it is THEIR own personal issues with thinking of themselves as mentally ill, not pressure from society. Esp. from men. (which is probably gonna get a lot of blowback on a male dominated site : ), but from women also. I think they see it, personally, as a sign of 'weakness'. And I don't think society adapting whole heartedly an "I'm ok, youre ok' attitude is ever going to change that for certain individuals.

Even when workers go out of their way to assure them over and over, that their feelings and stresses (and actions) are normal under the circumstances and temporary and not a stigma, they themselves don't agree. if I'm making any sense< not sure I'm explaining to you correctly.

Anyway, those are my observations in the field.

But ultimately I think this whole conversation silly. Depression, pressure and stress, is not murder of 150 strangers. It's not 8 minutes sitting there, waiting and hearing and watching your murder unfold.

apples and oranges.
 

Seeker

New Member
N
Lubitz's breathing was steady and controlled the entire time. Does that not suggest that he had mentally prepared himself?

Not necessarily. Other factors could be in play. One can breathe calmly and quite steadily in a number of scenarios like unconsciousness or medication induced sleep though I am not saying he was unconscious or sleeping.
 

Seeker

New Member
Initially I was inclined to believe the murder/suicide theory. Nearly all of the facts released so far point to this.
There's one thing nagging at me though. In the recent CVR transcript it states that Lubitz put on his O2 mask, which is why they could hear him breathing above the noise of the captain trying to gain entry.

I'm wondering why, if he was in a controlled decent with no depressurisation, knowing what was about to happen, did he put on the oxygen mask? I'm Hoping some of the pilots here can offer an opinion? I know its only a tiny detail but it seems rather odd. Or does it? Obviously none of his behaviour in the final 15 mins was 'normal'.

Again, I'm still leaning towards murder/suicide, not trying to fuel any conspiracy. Just made me think that maybe, just maybe, Lubitz was confused?

Could you provide a link to this source please?
 

Brainiachick

Active Member
Even when workers go out of their way to assure them over and over, that their feelings and stresses (and actions) are normal under the circumstances and temporary and not a stigma, they themselves don't agree. if I'm making any sense< not sure I'm explaining to you correctly.

No, you are not, but I am not seeking any clarifications please :).

But ultimately I think this whole conversation silly. Depression, pressure and stress, is not murder of 150 strangers. It's not 8 minutes sitting there, waiting and hearing and watching your murder unfold.
apples and oranges.

Massive difference between suicide and murder - I think a lot of us here have made that point pretty clearly; if you find your conversation silly, you are entitled to your own opinion. But thanks for attempting to explain your point of view.
 

Psychic

Senior Member
In the recent CVR transcript it states that Lubitz put on his O2 mask, which is why they could hear him breathing above the noise of the captain trying to gain entry.

I'm wondering why, if he was in a controlled decent with no depressurisation, knowing what was about to happen, did he put on the oxygen mask?
Maybe he was trying to sound like Darth Vader
 

Psychic

Senior Member
Massive difference between suicide and murder
This case involves both murder and suicide - I don't know what the expert opinion is on this sort of thing, but it seems reasonable to expect that it's:

a. The tragic suicide of a severly depressed man, combined with

b. A sociopathic personality.
 

Brainiachick

Active Member
This case involves both murder and suicide - I don't know what the expert opinion is on this sort of thing, but it seems reasonable to expect that it's:

a. The tragic suicide of a severly depressed man, combined with

b. A sociopathic personality.

b. Could be psychopathic rather than sociopathic personality - but I think you've summed it up nicely.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
b. Could be psychopathic rather than sociopathic personality - but I think you've summed it up nicely.
I think SRI drugs are likely to blame. If he was under treatment for depression, he'll have been prescribed SRI's. They are present in basically every mass murder. But the big networks don't discuss it because of their sponsorship arrangements. I think that makes those networks "whores" by definition. But whatever. My bet is SRI's did it.
 

occams rusty scissor

Senior Member.
I think SRI drugs are likely to blame. If he was under treatment for depression, he'll have been prescribed SRI's. ... My bet is SRI's did it.

You've obviously just decided to parrot CT's again, Lib,without bothering to look into it. There are more than just one type of antidepressant drugs given to those with depression, MOAI, Tricyclic, SNRI - SSRI's are but one form and can be used in conjunction with one another. Depression, as with all mental illness, is a complex disorder and not everyone can be treated with the same meds, nor do all meds work for some people for a variety of reasons.
 

occams rusty scissor

Senior Member.
It's a bit hard to speculate without knowing to what level his depression was, and whether it was compounded by other mental illness also. Sometimes depression is a symptom of other, undiagnosed or undiscovered disorders (i.e. Bipolar, Schizophrenia) where the patient keeps it under control to a degree, and the only time they seek help, or treatment is forced upon them, is when they are extremely low and depressed. In this case, it might be that the main cause of the depression is missed and treated solely as depression.

There is the possibility that Lubitz may have been psychotic, which can occur with those who suffer bipolar and other similar illness. That word, psychotic, conjures up all kinds of images of crazed, out of control people who are visibly affected but it's not always so.

I found an article that suggests he'd been treated with Olanzapine in the past few years. Olanzapine is an anti-psychotic but is often used to treat other symptoms and disorders such as anxiety, so it's not conclusive.


In 2010, Lubitz received Olanzpine injections (an antipsychotic medication) "to treat OCD," according to Le Perisien. Doctors advised Lubitz to be more active, practice a new sport and regain self-confidence.

"This is a powerful medication," said Gupta. "If this is true, it sort of reads into the severity of just how bad the psychosis was, at least at one point in his life."

There are other things besides psychosis for which the drug may be administered, but that's the most common use. One of the side effects is blurred vision.

Citing two officials with knowledge of the investigation, The New York Times Saturday reported that Lubitz sought treatment for vision problems that might have put his career at risk.
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I have seen and dealt with a LOT of mental illness in my career. Much of it triggered from substance abuse, but thats not relevant here. However I've seen a lot of seemingly "normal" and successful people suddenly struck down with this illness that noone can see, noone can really understand it and it's not always as simple as throwing some pills at it and it'll go away. And it's often the "normal" people that have become so good at hiding it, that noone suspects anything is wrong until one day something triggers an episode, and the facade comes down. Those are often the hardest situations to deal with because that person is now forced to deal with their disorder in a very public and raw way. It seems compounded by their perceived "loss of face" in front of family and friends, most of whom just want to help this person and make things better.

However it's not that simple to someone who's just had their self image torn away like that, so they can sometimes become spiteful, hateful and start lashing out in a big way. I wonder if this is something that occurred with Lubitz on a grand scale?

Im sure he justified it in his head, he was sick and irrational and that was what drove him to this. Maybe it was a case of he wanted to suicide and didn't care or didn't give any thought to those he was taking with him. When someone has been sucked down to that level of depression enough so that they don't care about what happens to themselves, I imagine it would be hard to give a damn about anyone else.
 

JFDee

Senior Member.
New revelations point to a not-so-spontaneous decision by Mr. Lubitz.

The tablet computer from his home was analyzed and revealed past search queries about both methods for suicide and technical details about cockpit doors ("in the week before the crash", as the district attourney from Düsseldorf stated).
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
Depression, as with all mental illness, is a complex disorder and not everyone can be treated with the same meds, nor do all meds work for some people for a variety of reasons.
Agreed, I went through 4 different types of anti-d's before it was discovered that Amitriptyline was the best one for me, even then I was only on it for about 2 years until the side effects began to out weigh the benefits and I was switched again, to Fluoxetine, that wasn't working to well, but by that time I was developing, with help from my shrink, coping strategies that didn't require meds, so was taken off them.
 

Efftup

Senior Member.
I don't know an awful lot about depression, but from people I have know or people who have posted here as well, it;s very possible that instead of being psychopathic or sociopathic, it;s more that he was so withdrawn he just didn't even think about the other 149 people. MAYBE if someone had suspected what he was planning, and said what about the other 149 people on the plane? he might have thought "SHIT!" I can't do that!! That's horrible!" and stopped as he was only thinking about killing himself and literally FORGOT there were loads of other people on board.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
But to me a main feature of suicide is the thought of how it will affect others, and in a lot of cases that is the reason to do it, because you want to affect them by your action.
(And that thought of how it affects others can be a good demotivator because it's going to be causing someone a hell of a lot of inconvenience at the least, and usually the thought of causing anyone unnecessary emotional trauma is a good reason not to take the idea any further)

Yes I can imagine a misery so deep that it eclipses all consideration for others. But his motivations seem to be along the lines of 'they'll regret it/they'll remember me now'. As deirdre's said
Depression, pressure and stress, is not murder of 150 strangers. It's not 8 minutes sitting there, waiting and hearing and watching your murder unfold.
 

Brainiachick

Active Member
New revelations point to a not-so-spontaneous decision by Mr. Lubitz.

The tablet computer from his home was analyzed and revealed past search queries about both methods for suicide and technical details about cockpit doors ("in the week before the crash", as the district attourney from Düsseldorf stated).

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/04/02/germanwings-crash-black-box_n_6992564.html?icid=maing-grid7|uk|dl1|sec1_lnk3&pLid=341174


I did see that earlier today and whilst it sadly confirms the earlier suspected pre-meditation, it also raises questions as to why a pilot who has been flying with this particular carrier and who should be familiar with a task he would ordinarily be required to perform in an emergency against external risks from hijackers should have to rely on an internet search to recall how to perform that task. This also raises questions as to the state of his mind - was he in such a state of funk, he honestly couldn't remember or was he just leaving clues for the rest of the world to deal with knowing his computer would likely be seized and analysed after the fact?
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
Agreed, I went through 4 different types of anti-d's before it was discovered that Amitriptyline was the best one for me, even then I was only on it for about 2 years until the side effects began to out weigh the benefits and I was switched again, to Fluoxetine, that wasn't working to well, but by that time I was developing, with help from my shrink, coping strategies that didn't require meds, so was taken off them.
I was on both of those, and others, and now on Mertazipine, which has the unwelcome side-effect of an increased appetite. The other side effect that I had is memory problems - which can be a blessing sometimes!

But on a serious point, these types of drugs can have all sorts of side-effects that are not conducive to aviation.

(EDIT to add: I need to include that there is a bit of outrage amongst pilots in the German association about the CVR details being "leaked" so early into any investigation. As a pilot in the United States, where the NTSB has jurisdiction? It is a common-place tradition that the CVR ('Cockpit Voice Recorder') is NEVER made public...the actual audio recordings, that is

I agree completely. I don't think the CAA and the AAIB would release would drip feed the media with tit-bits of information until a full investigation has concluded, and certainly there would be no leaks at all from the CVR.
 

occams rusty scissor

Senior Member.
But to me a main feature of suicide is the thought of how it will affect others, and in a lot of cases that is the reason to do it, because you want to affect them by your action.

Sometimes that might be a reason I would think, revenge or causing guilt. But many people that are suicidal are at that point because they don't have the mental stamina to continue dealing with their illness/voices/paranoia. Others are so numb they just don't care anymore and so how it affects other people doesn't factor in as to the how and why of their method. This is especially apparent in those who crash their vehicles into others and such - sometimes other people don't make it into their calculation.

And then there are those that you can talk around by bringing into the equation "what if you hurt someone else?" And that sometimes can help bring a person back, or it could just get a shrug and a comment like "they will get over it". Everyone is different I guess.

I know Lubitz was quoted by his ex as saying he was going to do something that would change the industry, which sounds ominous. Does anyone know how long ago that was said? I'm just thinking that if he was bipolar perhaps he was manic (high) and said that in a positive manner, as in contribute something big to aviation, which has now been taken out of context.

Mania can make some people very energetic and give them an unstoppable enthusiasm.
 

Brainiachick

Active Member
But to me a main feature of suicide is the thought of how it will affect others, and in a lot of cases that is the reason to do it, because you want to affect them by your action.
(And that thought of how it affects others can be a good demotivator because it's going to be causing someone a hell of a lot of inconvenience at the least, and usually the thought of causing anyone unnecessary emotional trauma is a good reason not to take the idea any further)

Yes I can imagine a misery so deep that it eclipses all consideration for others. But his motivations seem to be along the lines of 'they'll regret it/they'll remember me now'. As deirdre's said


You are right that Lubitz's apparent motivation seems to include the need to be known and remembered, and it is not beyond the realm of possibility that he wanted to punish his employers by his act, but a main feature of suicide thoughts or attempts isn't usually how it will affect others. If that features into it, it mostly likely serves as a deterrent as you'd rightly identified. Suicide is more to do with a very subjective view of how terrible life is at that point in time or over a period of time and the conviction that it would not change for the better for the subject of the suicide thought, act, or attempt. The thought that life is no longer worth living or indeed that the world would be better off without them in it can be so blinding in these cases, that it almost completely blinds them to how it will (adversely) affect others. At that deeply dark place, it is all about them, it is deep, desperate, single-minded, focused, negative and potent. And it will be about easing their painful existence by ending their lives. Some who think of the impact actually think that the people they are involved with will be better off with them gone and of course in some cases, the thought of how much suffering their loved one would have to endure does deter them from doing it. I deal with these sort of cases quite regularly. I have just finished a very long conference with a grandmother who has been caught in this horror with regards to her daughter and grandchildren - she is much better and hopefully it all ends well for the entire family.

Of course in some instances, it does involve how it will affect others with a punitive/revenge element attached to it. But sadly, these are the more dangerous ones because if the thoughts translate to action, it almost always goes beyond just suicide. If their goal is to punish someone, it will most likely involve taking or destroying something or someone that means a lot to the target of their punishment. These sort of punitive thoughts are frequently featured in murder/suicides and family annihilators. In Lubitz case, it maybe to punish Germanwings for reasons best known to him. In the case of the family annihilator, it is usually about revenge - to punish their target by taking away whom they cherish the most knowing that that would destroy them very slowly. It involves a total lack of empathy for the victims (usually their children or their partner's children) whose lives they are extinguishing, and with a complete focus on the secondary victim, who is in their mind their primary target. They want that person to suffer and die slowly mourning the sudden and tragic murder of their children, the way they believe that person has made them suffer. This does involve some elements of psychopathy or sociopathy and deeply seated sense of being wronged. The underlying mental difficulties usually go beyond depression or PTSD though depression, pressure, stress, divorce, separation, the fear of losing their child, and the high level of 'anguish' the perpetrator feels that he/she is suffering as a result.

In other cases, a twisted belief that that victim is better off dead so they can be together and be protected from the 'hurtful' world because they 'love' that person (mostly children in this respect as well) so much does exist. In most infanticide cases where the parent is the perpetrator and has also committed or attempted suicide, the belief that the child(ren) can only best be cared for by them albeit that they have taken a decision to exit this world, is usually evident. In these cases, there are usually serious pre-existing mental health issues - which are sometimes misdiagnosed or undetected and can be triggered by pressure, stress or the fear of losing that person in addition to the underlying medical problems.
 

Brainiachick

Active Member
I don't know an awful lot about depression, but from people I have know or people who have posted here as well, it;s very possible that instead of being psychopathic or sociopathic, it;s more that he was so withdrawn he just didn't even think about the other 149 people. MAYBE if someone had suspected what he was planning, and said what about the other 149 people on the plane? he might have thought "SHIT!" I can't do that!! That's horrible!" and stopped as he was only thinking about killing himself and literally FORGOT there were loads of other people on board.

It is normal to want to believe the best before conceding the worst and your post would have been plausible or would even have made a beautiful defence if the evidence wasn't pointing in the opposite direction. It appears, there was no "shit!" moment in this case, rather it appears to be that of pre-meditation. It is sad and hard to concede to.

German prosecutors say the co-pilot of Germanwings Flight 9525 appears to have researched suicide methods and cockpit door security in the days before he allegedly crashed the plane on purpose last week.

Investigators found a tablet computer at Andreas Lubitz's apartment. They said they were able to reconstruct searches from March 16 to March 23, just before the A320 crashed in the French Alps killing all 150 people on board.

Andreas Lubitz is believed to have deliberately crashed Germanwings flight A320 last week

Prosecutors' spokesman Ralf Herrenbrueck said in a statement that search terms included medical treatment and suicide methods. On at least one day, the co-pilot looked at search terms involving cockpit doors and their security methods.

The news came as prosecutors said the second black box from the Germanwings crash has been found in the remote mountains, where pieces of the plane are scattered around a wide area.

The first black box was found early on in the search, and held voice recordings which led to prosecutors concluding that co-pilot Lubitz locked the captain out of the cockpit before deliberately crashing the plane. According to prosecutors, he was heard to be breathing "normally" as the plane went down.

The box is now being examined, prosecutors reported.
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Brainiachick

Active Member
I know Lubitz was quoted by his ex as saying he was going to do something that would change the industry, which sounds ominous. Does anyone know how long ago that was said? I'm just thinking that if he was bipolar perhaps he was manic (high) and said that in a positive manner, as in contribute something big to aviation, which has now been taken out of context.

Mania can make some people very energetic and give them an unstoppable enthusiasm.

You are quite right there.

I understand he had a 7-year on-off relationship with his long term girlfriend who subsequently became his fiancee and he was with this particular ex-girlfriend (who was a stewardess with Germanwings) for about 5 months possibly when he was on a cooling curve with his fiancee. At the time he made that comment about planning to do something that would change the industry and make him to be remembered, he was reported to have been suffering with frequent nightmares that appeared to involve plane crashing as he would be heard screaming "We are going down! We are going down!" and then awake. These nightmares could be a manifestation of unexpressed fear of crashing - pilots are only human. It could be that he was indeed as a result thinking of doing something positive for the aviation industry - he was certainly a driven person as he wanted to fly larger planes and he had set his sights on long haul flights - the difficulty is, so far there is no evidence to support this possibility, but who knows what they might find in the coming days or weeks?
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
I admit I Didn't read all....(because some of my earlier posts were not taken seriously).

But, I am not "petty" here.

Tragically? The First-Officer (also called a 'co-pilot') was responsible.

AS A PILOT? This simply "blows my mind"....meaning, I CANNOT contemplate such an action.....it just beggars belief and understanding for ALL of us in the piloting/aviation community.

It TRULY breaks my heart....(cannot emphasize how much).......
 

Efftup

Senior Member.
It is normal to want to believe the best before conceding the worst and your post would have been plausible or would even have made a beautiful defence if the evidence wasn't pointing in the opposite direction. It appears, there was no "shit!" moment in this case, rather it appears to be that of pre-meditation. It is sad and hard to concede to.
The point is we DON'T know what was going through his mind. It;s all speculation. The fact he was planning in advance does not necessarily mean he was thinking about the further consequences.
I'm not ready to talk about my own suicidal thoughts in public but I can tell you for definite that something happened that literally shocked me out of the state I was in and if it hadn't, I wouldn't be here now. This whole event is extremely sad and shocking and at the end of the day, I STILL don;t think there is any real way to prevent this sort of thing because you can't know what;s going on in people;s minds. I suspect the 2 people to a cockpit rule, already in some countries, will be rolled out worldwide, but you literally can't prepare for any eventuality.
 

vooke

Active Member
WeedWhacker,
The idea that a seasoned pilot was fooled and that cost 150 lives. Please remember we are looking at this with the benefit of hindsight; what is obvious now may not have been obvious to the pilot. And if there is any consolation, there is a lot to learn from it
 

Brainiachick

Active Member
The point is we DON'T know what was going through his mind. It;s all speculation. The fact he was planning in advance does not necessarily mean he was thinking about the further consequences.
I'm not ready to talk about my own suicidal thoughts in public but I can tell you for definite that something happened that literally shocked me out of the state I was in and if it hadn't, I wouldn't be here now. This whole event is extremely sad and shocking and at the end of the day, I STILL don;t think there is any real way to prevent this sort of thing because you can't know what;s going on in people;s minds. I suspect the 2 people to a cockpit rule, already in some countries, will be rolled out worldwide, but you literally can't prepare for any eventuality.


You are right, the fact is we don't know all the facts and even when all the hard facts are in, there's no way to accurately know what was on his mind. And neither can there be a full-proof preventative measure to these sort of tragic incidents.

A very balanced view from Professor Adam Lankford below:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/04/03/germanwings-black-box-andreas-lubitz-suicide_n_6998838.html?icid=maing-grid7|uk|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=341312
 

munchie

Member
Yes, its from a Paris Match article. The reference to the mask is at 10:38 (it features a timeline)
http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774

10:28
Noise can be heard coming from a seat: the captain removes his seatbelt. The door is opened. The captain says to Lubitz: “You are in control now.”

Lubitz answers with a seemingly light tone of voice: “I hope so.”

That answer really creeps me out.

According to several news sources he was treated for depression, anxiety and panic attacks. The last one is something I know first hand and might this give an explanation to the use of oxygen mask? The symptoms of a panic attack often include dizziness, feeling of choking and shortness of breath. The "I hope so" answer also would point to this, people having a panic attack usually fear losing control or going crazy. The sensation is very very real.
 

tadaaa

Senior Member
I admit I Didn't read all....(because some of my earlier posts were not taken seriously).

But, I am not "petty" here.

Tragically? The First-Officer (also called a 'co-pilot') was responsible.

AS A PILOT? This simply "blows my mind"....meaning, I CANNOT contemplate such an action.....it just beggars belief and understanding for ALL of us in the piloting/aviation community.

It TRULY breaks my heart....(cannot emphasize how much).......
I am pretty sure everyone is with you on this weedwhacker
 

derwoodii

Senior Member.
Understanding mental health issues is not my strong card .
What i struggle to comprehend is that his actions were perhaps spontaneous or beyond his own state of mind control. To undertake all required to drive the aircraft to the ground needs thinking planning (as so far media claimed by his home computer logs) the forethought for timing and then concentration to readjust flight controls & ignore knocking & calls. I guess its a small relief he took just his passengers souls and not aimed the plane at a City

High functioning psychos by nature are near impossible to predict or manage within balanced civil liberty context.

Motivation,,, was Mh 370 a possible trigger for 9525 to copy cat.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
What i struggle to comprehend is that his actions were perhaps spontaneous or beyond his own state of mind control.

They could have been the culmination of a plan over a long period of time. If he was indeed unbalanced, had a personality disorder or depressed then this starts him off in a bad place. I do not know what medications he was prescribed, but I have had some that made me worse rather than better. Anti-psychotics or anti-depressants have an eye-watering amount of warnings in the literature of side effects. In my darkest hours I planned my own demise quite thoroughly. It is possible that he worked on this in his head and once he locked the door behind the Captain, there was no going back.
High functioning psychos by nature are near impossible to predict or manage within balanced civil liberty context.

Psycho is a unhelpful word, as its open to interpretation to what it means.
 
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