Acetaminophen (Tylenol) and Autism
- Thread starter JMartJr
- Start date
MonkeeSage
Senior Member.
That seems like a motte and bailey. Motte: FDA says be aware that there is ongoing study and there is currently no evidence of a causal relationship. Bailey: Trump tells the world that pregnant women should fight like hell not to take it and White House press release says the evidence currently shows it may cause long-term neurological effects in children. When challenged on the unsupported stronger statements from Trump/White House, fall back to the defensible FDA statement.
FatPhil
Senior Member.
There's a pre-existing route for the word to get out - it's called publishing. And there's a mechanism to let physicians and women make their own decisions - it's called, erm, having the government do precisely nothing, as that's what physicians and women can already do.
The word, or words, they actually got out in their official getting-the-word-out performance were "don't take Tylenol" 11 times. That's quite different.
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
This seems over-blown.
Nearly everything Trump utters is exaggerated to some degree. So, with this kind of stuff, I ignore what he says and I look at what they're actually doing about it. And all they've done is released a statement to physicians with accurate information on it and requiring a label change on acetaminophen products.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pre...autism-and-acetaminophen-use-during-pregnancyExternal Quote:
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
If you take issue with the government making public health announcements/recommendations/warnings, then we live in two totally different worlds of thought.
You have seen the quotes from Trump. Would you really characterize that as just getting the word out?
You've gotta be trolling
Straw man of @FatPhil 's argument
JMartJr
Senior Member.
I gotta disagree with that to some extent.
One of the things a President DOES is to wield the "bully pulpit" to guide public opinion The President of the United States saying you should fight like Hell to avoid taking a pain releiver, and labeling a specific brand product as "not good" and saying that taking it is "dangerous to the woman's health" (which is arrant nonsense unless he thinks pregnant women are getting autism when they take Tylenol during pregnancy) is a few steps beyond "exaggerated to some degree." It is an action that has consequences, for good or bad.
deirdre
Senior Member
you do realize the number of future pregnant women that would have listened to that press conference or go on the gov website to read newsflashes (<i mean i havent ever ever done that unless im looking something up for MB) are minimal at best. Thanks to the media for pumping out the news in a responsible manner lol.
it's like "drink bleach".. virtually noone would have even known Trump asked if there was a way to disinfect the lungs if the media didnt go whole hog.
not excusing Trump for his well known NY style bombasticsy (is that a word?), just saying.
deirdre
Senior Member
technically we should all fight like hell to avoid pain relievers. even my dentist told me to tough it out as much as i could. americans are pill popping happy.
the issue really is fevers.. not pain. maybe migraines if migraines cause stress on the body (assume tehy do) and stress isnt good for babies in utero either.
fizzBuzz
Senior Member
Yes. And as I stated earlier:
Jesus Christ, you people act like they're forcing physicians to withhold Tylenol and they're raiding women's medicine cabinets.
deirdre
Senior Member
there are alot of autism quacks that will use this information to sell their bs holistic wares to women. just like there have been for decades now, but when Jenny McCarthy does it she gets a job with the View.
again ...not dismissing Trumps hyperbolic tendencies. you'd be surprised how often Trump ticks off Republicans too!
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John J.
Senior Member.
Yes, but it wasn't me who used the Amish as an example of people who don't use Tylenol/ vaccines and who don't have children with autism.
It was Robert F. Kennedy Junior.
If he has evidence that only Amish mothers who used Tylenol (or were vaccinated) during pregnancy have autistic children, he should share it.
deirdre
Senior Member
unfortunately noone ever is gonna have evidence of anything regarding autism because they are throwing too many kids into "the spectrum", so there will always be the "not otherwise specified"s ruining the data.
You've gotta be trolling x2
C'mon man!! THINK
Why would these two statements be ironic to be said about Republicans?
Ann K
Senior Member.
I don't take issue with the government making factual public health announcements.
OMG that makes so much more sense. I copy and pasted that section using Google Lens on my phone (the usual option to copy was not coming up), and the version from @John J. has a line break "cau-tion", and that led to the wrong word when I pasted. My fault for not double checking. Thank you!!!!
@Mendel you were right to ask about this!
FatPhil
Senior Member.
I'm all for evidence-based medicine, evidence-based science, and evidence-based rhetoric. I can see no evidence for the premise that I take issue with the government making public health announcements. What took place was not one of those, it was a scare based on a hastily-cobbled-together paper which has its intended conclusions baked into its design (the down-rating of papers that show no increased hazard specifically *because* they show no increased hazard).
Mendel
Senior Member.
Press conference:
https://www.rev.com/transcripts/autism-link-press-conference
HHS statement:External Quote:
Article: While promising, it is important to note that leucovorin is not a cure for ASD and may only lead to improvements in speech-related deficits for a subset of children with ASD. Furthermore, this treatment must be administered under close medical supervision and in conjunction with other non-pharmacological approaches for children with ASD (e.g., behavioral therapy).
Independent journalism (excerpts):
Article: "We have nothing resembling even moderate evidence that leucovorin is an effective treatment for autism symptoms," said David Mandell, a psychiatrist at the University of Pennsylvania.
Many researchers agree the drug warrants additional study, particularly for patients with a deficiency of folate, or vitamin B9, in the brain that may play a role in autism. But for now, they say, it should only be taken in carefully controlled clinical trials.
"We often say our job is to stay between the yellow lines," said Dr. Lawrence Gray, a pediatric developmental specialist at Northwestern University. "When people just decide to go outside of current guidelines, then they're outside of that. And nobody knows what's going to happen out there."
The issue caught the attention of Frye and others more than 20 years ago, when research suggested some people with autism had low levels of folate in the brain due to antibodies blocking the vitamin's absorption.
The theory linking autism to folate levels was mostly abandoned, however, after research showed that the siblings of people with autism can also have low folates without any symptoms of the condition.
Gray recalls other experimental treatments that initially looked promising only to fail in larger studies.
"Small studies often find populations that are very motivated," Gray said. "But when those therapies are moved into larger studies, the initial positive findings often disappear."
Among the challenges facing leucovorin: There isn't agreement about what portion of autism patients have the folate-blocking antibodies supposedly targeted by the drug.
FatPhil
Senior Member.
Has Dr. Oz fully divested from iHerb yet? The autism quacks are the folinate pushers, and iHerb are folinate pushers. And...
-- https://www.newsweek.com/ftc-called-investigate-dr-oz-1995333External Quote:
Mendel
Senior Member.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/fact-check-dr-oz-not-031716632.html
"Fact Check: Dr. Oz Will NOT Profit From iHerb When Trump FDA Recommends Leucovorin For Treatment Of Autism - Oz Sold Shares, Resigned Paid Post"
We're getting a bit off topic, though.
Gary C
Senior Member.
Now the courts have chimed in -
source - https://www.statnews.com/2025/09/23/researcher-behind-trump-tylenol-autism-expert-testimony-tossed/External Quote:
deirdre
Senior Member
and bold "his causation thesis". sounds like he does believe that.
deirdre
Senior Member
ah an example of actual responsible journalism! article very nicely written!
https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-adm...ancy-increased-risk-autism/story?id=125802080
Article: But Trump went further, directly addressing pregnant women during the press conference, stating, "Don't take Tylenol. There's no downside. Don't take it."
"You'll be uncomfortable," he added. "It won't be as easy, maybe. But don't take it if you're pregnant. Don't take Tylenol, and don't give it to the baby after the baby is born."
At one point, Trump acknowledged that his remarks were based less on scientific evidence and more on his own life experiences and "common sense."
"You know, I'm just making these statements from me," he said. "I'm not making them from these doctors, because when they talk about, you know, different results, different studies, I talk about a lot of common sense. And they have that too. They have that too, a lot."
a bit off topic but the article also says:
mostly bringing it up because it reminded me, trump said "18 years ago" "1 in 10,000" which isnt true. we could be ok with "1 in 1,000 25 years ago".External Quote:
He was almost correct in his first line "10,000 a few decades ago".. 1970/80 was 4 in 10,000.
Article: 1:57
Just a few decades ago, 1 in 10,000 children had autism, so that's
2:03
not a long time and I've always heard, you know, they sell a few, but I think it's
2:08
a lot less time than that. Uh, it used to be 1 in 20,000.
2:13
than 1 in 10,000. And I would say that's probably 18 years ago.
2:19
And now it's 1 in 31. But in some areas it's much worse than that if you can believe it,
revised 1999 NewYork Public Health
Article: How Common is Autism?
Autism may be more common than previously realized, particularly if the broader definition of autism as a spectrum disorder is used to determine the number of cases. Earlier studies suggested that about three to four children in 10,000 have autism, but more recent studies have suggested higher rates, up to greater than 20 in 10,000. A range of 10-15 per 10,000 is a commonly accepted "middle range" estimate. The higher estimated rates probably reflect inclusion of the broader range of autism, including milder subtypes on the spectrum (PDD-NOS and Asperger disorder). The apparent increase may also be a result of improved diagnosis, but a real increase in prevalence cannot be absolutely ruled out.
https://archive.md/KXhOC
LA Times 1999
Article: Between 1975 and 1985 studies showed the worldwide rate of autism to be about 4 cases per 10,000. Between 1985 and 1995, the numbers tripled to 12 per 10,000. But researchers believe that the actual rate may be much higher, on the order of one in 500 children.
FatPhil
Senior Member.
From memory:
The 1970s was DSM-II, and DSM-II(R) (motivated by LGBTQ+ tweaks)
The 1980s was DSM-III and DSM-III(R) (motivated by LGBTQ+ tweaks)
The 1990s saw DSM-IV arrive
The 2000s was DSM-IV(TR), and that's where the whole ASD section was literally *completely* rewritten.
The 2010s saw DSM-5 arrive (motivated by the fact that they don't teach roman numerals in school any more)
The 2020s saw DSM-5(R) and I stopped following the changes over a decade ago, so no idea what actually changed.
Different diagnostic criteria will give different demographic proportions.
Wildly different diagnostic criteria, such as DSM-IV to DSM-IV(TR) will give wildly different - incomparable - demographic proportions.
deirdre
Senior Member
i know. im ok with saying 1 in 12 boys of our generation have ASD and just dont know it.
boguesuser
Active Member
Mendel
Senior Member.
deirdre
Senior Member
actually it pretty much says the same thing on the tylenol bottle.
boguesuser
Active Member
"DON'T USE TYLENOL UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY," and "DON'T GIVE TYLENOL TO YOUR YOUNG CHILD FOR VIRTUALLY ANY REASON" is very different from "If pregnant or breast-feeding, ask a health professional before use." and "under 18 years of age - ask a doctor"
One is consult with a healthcare professional as there may be health concerns or complications while the other is "HOLY SHIT YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE YOUR KIDS AUTISM"
deirdre
Senior Member
well if that is true, maybe we shouldnt be spreading a comment on a small forum like Truth Social, here on MB.
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deirdre
Senior Member
boguesuser
Active Member
Isnt the point of Metabunk to debunk conspiracies even if they come directly from the president? Or is this sarcasm and I'm completely missing it.
Mendel
Senior Member.
Yep. "Ask a doctor [for the correct dosage]." Quite a far cry from "DON'T GIVE TYLENOL TO YOUR YOUNG CHILD FOR VIRTUALLY ANY REASON,"
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deirdre
Senior Member
technically that would be debunking bunk. maybe. kinda.
but yea the point was more, dont spread information that could hurt babies more. (you can of course, its just a personal opinion)
Ann K
Senior Member.
Donald Trump has 8.6 million followers on that "small forum" Truth Social. Do you really think Metabunk is going to outnumber that?
deirdre
Senior Member
fine. help Trump spread his message to those not on Truth Social.
HIGHLY recommend this video from Hank Green. He dozens or hundreds of hours reading reports trying to find where specific claims came from. He also just ignores Trump's tendency to add his own flare to reports (he shows them as an example but doesn't bother treating them as something to debunk).
It's only 20 minutes so I highly recommend just watching the whole video. Basically, there are several reasons, some we know and some we don't, that account for the change. Quoting Green (4:29), "diagnostic expansion and diagnostic switching are part of the story. They are not whole story.... The bulk is from diagnostic expansion and switching."
Some portion of the increase is due to changes in diagnostic category.
@4:19 he shows the change in composition of diagnoses
@15:15. This plot shows proportions. The more people tested, the more autism, but also more people with higher IQ.
@8:03, Hank shows come clear intellectual dishonesty (though he doesn't call is that)
What the report shows:
What they excluded:
There was no justification provided for excluding that year.
Also, fixing the classic y axis trick, where the y axis is truncated to exaggerate changes. (Doesn't mean we shouldn't care though)
Lastly,
What's important here? The percent of "no tests" has exploded, while IQ<70 gone up and down over this time period. But, due to drop in no tests, it looks like <70 is going crazy.
Edit: fixed a caption. For the image at 15:15, I just recommend watching the video for a good explanation. I have really sucked lately at making easy mistakes.
It's only 20 minutes so I highly recommend just watching the whole video. Basically, there are several reasons, some we know and some we don't, that account for the change. Quoting Green (4:29), "diagnostic expansion and diagnostic switching are part of the story. They are not whole story.... The bulk is from diagnostic expansion and switching."
Some portion of the increase is due to changes in diagnostic category.
@4:19 he shows the change in composition of diagnoses
@15:15. This plot shows proportions. The more people tested, the more autism, but also more people with higher IQ.
@8:03, Hank shows come clear intellectual dishonesty (though he doesn't call is that)
What the report shows:
What they excluded:
There was no justification provided for excluding that year.
Also, fixing the classic y axis trick, where the y axis is truncated to exaggerate changes. (Doesn't mean we shouldn't care though)
Lastly,
What's important here? The percent of "no tests" has exploded, while IQ<70 gone up and down over this time period. But, due to drop in no tests, it looks like <70 is going crazy.
Edit: fixed a caption. For the image at 15:15, I just recommend watching the video for a good explanation. I have really sucked lately at making easy mistakes.
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