90 Degree plane trail?

Trailspotter

Senior Member
That is extremely close, but I am not convinced.

I think the red path is lined up, but not the green one. What were the differences in altitude? In the video, it appears that the corner of the trail disappears around the same time. If this trail were two planes crossing, I would expect to see more dispersion and more differences. This trail is nearly equal in width on both lines. What kind of planes were the one's flying?
I think they both aligned pretty well. The trails had spread out before you captured them and both lines are within the spread. Both planes past the crossing point at practically the same altitude of 37,000 feet. The "green" plane was still ascending at this point, but its trail was formed first and may have sunken a bit before the "red" trail was formed, therefore this trail appears lower, as I pointed out yesterday. The trails were similarly dispersed because they were in the same atmospheric conditions.
The "green" plane was B757, and the "red" one was A320.
 
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Marine0811

Active Member
The trails did not make a near perfect 90 degree angle. It was just illusion. The trails were carried by wind across the sky so their mutual orientations changed over the time. If you had spotted them a few minutes earlier, when they just formed, you probably would see them shaped like V but with a wide angle. They looked like a mirrored L with a right angle between them only for a short time and then became like > sign with an acute angle between them as seen in your movie.
If you line the green arrow up with the center of the trail, it is a near perfect 90 degree angle. You lined the green arrow directed towards the upper part of the trail instead of center. The trail existed and disappeared at equal times as seen from it's width and dispersion. How far apart in time and altitude were those two planes that crossed?
 

deirdre

Moderator
Staff member
If you line the green arrow up with the center of the trail, it is a near perfect 90 degree angle. You lined the green arrow directed towards the upper part of the trail instead of center. The trail existed and disappeared at equal times as seen from it's width and dispersion. How far apart in time and altitude were those two planes that crossed?
plane contrails exist ALL THE TIME. if you don't see them, its because the atmospheric conditions aren't right.

these contrails 'look' the same because the same atmospheric conditions are working on them.
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member
If you line the green arrow up with the center of the trail, it is a near perfect 90 degree angle. You lined the green arrow directed towards the upper part of the trail instead of center. The trail existed and disappeared at equal times as seen from it's width and dispersion. How far apart in time and altitude were those two planes that crossed?
I did not align green and red lines separately. These are actual flightpaths and they do not necessarily coincide with the trails because of the wind, but they are reasonable approximations of the trails.

I've just selected a viewpoint on the ground and looked at the angle between the flightpaths. I could refine the viewpoint position by moving it around a bit to make a perfect 90 degree angle, but this would be an overkill.

The planes passed the crossing point at about the same altitude of 37,000 feet 3-4 minutes apart; first the "green" going to the left, then the "red" going up (that is, toward you).
 
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Marine0811

Active Member
I did not align green and red lines separately. These are actual flightpaths and they do not necessarily coincide with the trails because of the wind, but they are reasonable approximations of the trails.

I've just selected a viewpoint on the ground and looked at the angle between the flightpaths. I could refine the viewpoint position by moving it around a bit to make a perfect 90 degree angle, but this would be an overkill.

The planes passed the crossing point at about the same altitude of 37,000 feet 3-4 minutes apart; first the "green" going to the left, then the "red" going up (that is, toward you).
The wind seems to be stronger as it blows the lower portion of the trail away faster. At the same time, it blows away the lower portion of the upward trail.
Do you know the altitude of the other plane in the video leaving it's trail? I am not convinced that the trail in question is as high as 37,000 ft. Do you have specific numbers from the flight radar showing these planes crossed paths in my area 3-4 minutes apart?
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member
Can it be determined whether or not this plane/object was going upwards or level with the horizon?
The plane that left "vertical" trail was in completely level flight at 37,000 ft. The other flight that left "horizontal" trail was ascending from 36,000 ft to above 38,000 ft at very shallow angle, so it was practically level too.

Your photos and video actually prove that these were level flights, because we can see how the angles between the two trails and between each trail and the horizon change with the time as the trails are carried away by the wind.

Do you know the altitude of the other plane in the video leaving it's trail? I am not convinced that the trail in question is as high as 37,000 ft. Do you have specific numbers from the flight radar showing these planes crossed paths in my area 3-4 minutes apart?
Yes, all data I have used in my analysis are available from FlightAware:

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL2100/history/20141028/2259Z/KATL/KBOS
[correction: it was DAL1200 flight]:
https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL1200/history/20141028/1522Z/KATL/KBOS

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT1121/history/20141028/1430Z/KRSW/KCLE
 
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Marine0811

Active Member
The plane that left "vertical" trail was in completely level flight at 37,000 ft. The other flight that left "horizontal" trail was ascending from 36,000 ft to above 38,000 ft at very shallow angle, so it was practically level too.

Your photos and video actually prove that these were level flights, because we can see how the angles between the two trails and between each trail and the horizon change with the time as the trails are carried away by the wind.



Yes, all data I have used in my analysis are available from FlightAware:

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL2100/history/20141028/2259Z/KATL/KBOS
https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT1121/history/20141028/1430Z/KRSW/KCLE

Those flight lines look extremely different than the ones shown earlier. I don't know how long 2 separate plane trails would hold together at that angle for an extended period of time when part of the trail was blown apart in just a few minutes.

The Atlanta plane took off at 7:12pm and landed at 9:15pm. https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL2100/history/20141028/2259Z/KATL/KBOS/tracklog

The Cleveland plane was at the Indianapolis center by 12:14. https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT1121/history/20141028/1430Z/KRSW/KCLE/tracklog

How are these the right planes?
 

solrey

Senior Member
Those flight lines look extremely different than the ones shown earlier. I don't know how long 2 separate plane trails would hold together at that angle for an extended period of time when part of the trail was blown apart in just a few minutes.

The Atlanta plane took off at 7:12pm and landed at 9:15pm. https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL2100/history/20141028/2259Z/KATL/KBOS/tracklog

The Cleveland plane was at the Indianapolis center by 12:14. https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT1121/history/20141028/1430Z/KRSW/KCLE/tracklog

How are these the right planes?
Trailspotter originally wrote DAL1200, then in the next paragraph transposed the 1 and 2 so from then on it's been written as DAL2100.

Playing back FR24 on October 28 at around 12 noon EDT (16:00 UTC), I've identified two possible candidate flights: DAL1200 (ATL->BOS) and FFR(FFT)1121 (RSW->CLE). I have downloaded KML files with their flightpaths from Flightaware and displayed them at Google Earth:
View attachment 9937

FFT1121 (red) crossed the path of DL2100 (green) at essentially the same altitude at 16:00 UTC, about 18 minutes before the first photo. To model view of the trail in this photo I moved the camera viewpoint under the read path some 18 km east of Boiling spring:
View attachment 9938
DAL1200 is the correct flight and the timing is right.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL1200/history/20141028/1522Z/KATL/KBOS
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member
Those flight lines look extremely different than the ones shown earlier. I don't know how long 2 separate plane trails would hold together at that angle for an extended period of time when part of the trail was blown apart in just a few minutes.

The Atlanta plane took off at 7:12pm and landed at 9:15pm. https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL2100/history/20141028/2259Z/KATL/KBOS/tracklog
Sorry, it was my mistake (I was halfway to bed when I wrote this and did not check the link):oops:
Sorley (thanks!) has already pointed out that the correct flight is DAL1200. I have corrected this in my previous posts.


The Cleveland plane was at the Indianapolis center by 12:14. https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT1121/history/20141028/1430Z/KRSW/KCLE/tracklog

How are these the right planes?
The Indianapolis center is a Reporting facility that covers a large area. It is not a particular location or destination.

PS Here, for comparison, are the data from the track logs near the crossing point:

Flight Time(UTC) Latitude Longitude Course Direction KTS MPH Altitude(feet) Rate Reporting Facility
DAL1200 15:55 34.8233 -82.1561 63° Northeast 488 562 37,000 180 Atlanta Center
FFT1121 16:01 34.8339 -82.1711 359° North 452 520 37,000 _ Atlanta Center

The two flights passed through practically the same point in 3D just a few minutes apart. It just happened that their contrails began to persist right at this point and joined together after having spread out a bit.
 
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Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
It is impossible by our public knowledge of what technology our government does or doesn't have. It could also be a possible alien ufo, but both are speculation lacking evidence.
I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me of this being 2 trails from 2 separate planes, the chances of them lining up or appearing at a 90 degree angle seem very small to me.
If you have two straight lines crossing each other, they are going to make some kind of angle. And, as your two photos prove, they didn't make a 90 degree angle, they just appeared that way from a certain perspective.

I think @Trailspotter has done a pretty thorough job of explaining these trails - in fact I am surprised they line up as well as they do, given that the contrails were quite old and dispersing by the time you took the photos.

You seem to be desperate for there to be an extraordinary explanation, rather than being pleased that the planes have been identified. Your alternative theory would have to involve a mystery craft making manoeuvred unlike any aircraft we know about, in virtually the exact same place as two planes crossed paths, in broad daylight, with nobody on the ground or in radar facilities noticing. Is that really more likely than two planes leaving contrails in the sky that happen to line up when viewed from a particular spot on the ground?
 

Efftup

Senior Member
Yes, you really DO seem to be trying extra hard not to be convinced.

I would have thought the very detailed explanation given would at least be a POSSIBLE explanation for what you saw, and as you have already pointed out, alien craft or secret govt craft we don't know about is baseless speculation, so applying Occam's Razor, you would go with the 2 plane explanation. Unless there was ANY other evidence that might help you lean towards an extraordinary explanation, I don;t see why you would still be looking for one.
 

Marine0811

Active Member
Sorry, it was my mistake (I was halfway to bed when I wrote this and did not check the link):oops:
Sorley (thanks!) has already pointed out that the correct flight is DAL1200. I have corrected this in my previous posts.




The Indianapolis center is a Reporting facility that covers a large area. It is not a particular location or destination.

PS Here, for comparison, are the data from the track logs near the crossing point:

Flight Time(UTC) Latitude Longitude Course Direction KTS MPH Altitude(feet) Rate Reporting Facility
DAL1200 15:55 34.8233 -82.1561 63° Northeast 488 562 37,000 180 Atlanta Center
FFT1121 16:01 34.8339 -82.1711 359° North 452 520 37,000 _ Atlanta Center

The two flights passed through practically the same point in 3D just a few minutes apart. It just happened that their contrails began to persist right at this point and joined together after having spread out a bit.

Why are your times and the other times so different and how do I see their locations on a map?

The time posted for the FFT1121 is 12:01. It was out of the Atlanta Center range by 12:12.
12:01 34.8339 -82.1711 359° North 452 520 37,000 Atlanta Center

The time posted for the DAL1200 is 11:55am.
11:55AM 34.8233 -82.1561 63° Northeast 488 562 37,000 180 Atlanta Center
It was out of the Atlanta Center range by 12:07 pm.

How long would these trails supposedly have been in the air before my pictures were taken?
Is there anything exact to show on a map of their paths directly crossing around boiling springs?
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member
Why are your times and the other times so different and how do I see their locations on a map?

The time posted for the FFT1121 is 12:01. It was out of the Atlanta Center range by 12:12.
12:01 34.8339 -82.1711 359° North 452 520 37,000 Atlanta Center

The time posted for the DAL1200 is 11:55am.
11:55AM 34.8233 -82.1561 63° Northeast 488 562 37,000 180 Atlanta Center
It was out of the Atlanta Center range by 12:07 pm.

How long would these trails supposedly have been in the air before my pictures were taken?
Is there anything exact to show on a map of their paths directly crossing around boiling springs?
The times are the same, my times are in UTC and yours are in EDT (UTC -4h). FlightAware displays data in the user's local time. If you check the times at the FlightAware site now, you probably will see them in EST (UTC -5h) after your local time has been switched back to Eastern Standard Time.

You can display and explore the trails on Google Earth; the flight tracks are available in KML format from the the FlightAware site. To download click on the Google Earth link (encircled in purple) near the bottom right corner of the map:
Screen shot 2014-11-02 at 10.14.53.png

I've also attached the KML files for both flights to this post.

As you can see, the trails crossed at about 12:01 EDT, 16 minutes before your first pictures were taken. In that period of time they moved east so that the FFT1121 trail was pointing right toward you and appeared 'vertical'. Note that the high altitude wind normally moves a vast layer of air in the same direction with the same speed and carries the embedded trails across the sky parallel to their original orientations. By the time you set up your video, the trails were even further east and continued their movement in easterly direction during filming.

Your video actually allows identification of the location of the trails at a known moment of time. Using provided information, the camera location and orientation can be deduced and added to Google Earth with a high precision. After that the trails can be modelled and positioned so to match their image in the video frame. The timing of video also can be deduced due to an accidental capture of a plane flying across the frame (entering at 2:40 at the right hand side). This flight, AAL1114 (from Dallas to New York), has deviated from its usual route presumably to avoid bad weather, or, possibly, to appear in your video to allow me its identification:cool:. The KML file with its track is also attached. (Note that AAL1114 had flown at 39,000 ft, a few miles further south and 2000 ft higher than the two other planes, so it should not be surprising that it had not left a persistent trail).

Here is a fit of your camera frame on Google Earth with the added model of the trails and AAL1114 track:
Castleton Crl #1.jpg
The AAL1114 track is shown in a default view, extended to the ground. The junction between the transparent and opaque panes corresponds to the plane position at 16:31:34 UTC (12:31:34 EDT). The purple angled line represents the position of the trails at about the same time.

A view from the above shows all three tracks: the FTT1121 track goes S-N, whereas the other two tracks go SW-NE at about 60° to it. The yellow pin marks the AAL1114 plane position at 12:31:34 EDT. (The plane markers can be moved along the tracks to a different time by the slider tool in the upper left corner of Google Earth window.) The FTT1121 and DAL1200 trails at the above time are modelled in the same orientations as their tracks at the original junction but are displaced to the east along the yellow line by about 45 km (28 miles):
GE elbow trail.jpg
(Note: this gives an estimate of the wind speed of 90 km/h or 55 mph, which is in the middle of the range of speed values for high altitude winds.)

Again, the times and locations are in a good agreement. In 30 minutes after the the trails made the crossing they moved twice the distance they did by the time of the first photos.

And the last evidence for two planes. In your video, there are similarly shaped trails on the left. The longer trail (red arrow) is parallel to the longer 'vertical' trail on the right, whereas a shorter faint trail (green arrow) is parallel to the shorter trail on the right. Unlike the trails on the right, the trails on the left are not joint together.
Screen shot 2014-10-31 at 13.58.55.png
This is fully consistent with the FR24 playback showing the planes in your area flying along the two major routes: N-S and NE-SW. Also, as seen in your video, the non-persistent trail of AAL1114 on a parallel route to DAL1200 is parallel to both shorter trails.
 

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Marine0811

Active Member
The times are the same, my times are in UTC and yours are in EDT (UTC -4h). FlightAware displays data in the user's local time. If you check the times at Aware site now, you probably will see them in EST (5h) after you local time has been switched back to Eastern Standard Time.

You can display and explore the trails on Google Earth; the flight tracks are available in KML format from the the FlightAware site. To download click on the Google Earth link (encircled in purple) near the bottom right corner of the map:
View attachment 9984

I've also attached the KML files for both flights to this post.

As you can see, the trails crossed at about 12:01 EDT, 16 minutes before your first pictures were taken. In that period of time they moved east so that the FFT1121 trail was pointing right toward you and appeared 'vertical'. Note that the high altitude wind normally moves a vast layer of air in the same direction with the same speed and carries the embedded trails across the sky parallel to their original orientations. By the time you set up your video, the trails were even further east and continued their movement in easterly direction during filming.

Your video actually allows identification of the location of the trails at a known moment of time. Using provided information, the camera location and orientation can be deduced and added to Google Earth with a high precision. After that the trails can be modelled and positioned so to match their image in the video frame. The timing of video also can be deduced due to an accidental capture of a plane flying across the frame (entering at 2:40 at the right hand side). This flight, AAL1114 (from Dallas to New York), has deviated from its usual route presumably to avoid bad weather, or, possibly, to appear in your video to allow me its identification:cool:. The KML file with its track is also attached. (Note that AAL1114 had flown at 39,000 ft, a few miles further south and 2000 ft higher than the two other planes, so it should not be surprising that it had not left a persistent trail).

Here is a fit of your camera frame on Google Earth with the added model of the trails and AAL1114 track:
View attachment 9988
The AAL1114 track is shown in a default view, extended to the ground. The junction between the transparent and opaque panes corresponds to the plane position at 16:31:34 UTC (12:31:34 EDT). The purple angled line represents the position of the trails at about the same time.

A view from the above shows all three tracks: the FTT1121 track goes S-N, whereas the other two tracks go SW-NE at about 60° to it. The yellow pin marks the AAL1114 plane position at 12:31:34 EDT. (The plane markers can be moved along the tracks to a different time by the slider tool in the upper left corner of Google Earth window.) The FTT1121 and DAL1200 trails at the above time are modelled in the same orientations as their tracks at the original junction but are displaced to the east along the yellow line by about 45 km (28 miles):
View attachment 9990
(Note: this gives an estimate of the wind speed of 90 km/h or 55 mph, which is in the middle of the range of speed values for high altitude winds.)

Again, the times and locations are in a good agreement. In 30 minutes after the the trails made the crossing they moved twice the distance they did by the time of the first photos.

And the last evidence for two planes. In your video, there are similarly shaped trails on the left. The longer trail (red arrow) is parallel to the longer 'vertical' trail on the right, whereas a shorter faint trail (green arrow) is parallel to the shorter trail on the right. Unlike the trails on the right, the trails on the left are not joint together.
View attachment 9991
This is fully consistent with the FR24 playback showing the planes in your area flying along the two major routes: N-S and NE-SW. Also, as seen in your video, the non-persistent trail of AAL1114 on a parallel route to DAL1200 is parallel to both shorter trails.
Thanks, I will look at your post again tomorrow on my computer.
When changing the colors on my pics, it appeared to be one trail because of it's curvy appearance. There is a distinct line within the trail that appears connected around the turn. I have pics I will post tomorrow. Orher trails that seem to meet usually don't have an in tact appearance, they usually have a smeared or blurry appearance.
How can you be sure that the non persistant trails aren't the ones you are referencing?
 

deirdre

Moderator
Staff member
There is a distinct line within the trail that appears connected around the turn.
yea I noticed that too. but the plane would have had to barrel roll around the very sharp turn and be upside down for the second half, if the heavier edge of the trails were all one trail, no?. (at least in the OP pic)
 

Marine0811

Active Member
yea I noticed that too. but the plane would have had to barrel roll around the very sharp turn and be upside down for the second half, if the heavier edge of the trails were all one trail, no?. (at least in the OP pic)
That is what it looks like to me. Could a stunt plane or something else make a turn like that?
 

NoParty

Senior Member
That is what it looks like to me. Could a stunt plane or something else make a turn like that?
Well, we've got lots of pilots on here, better qualified to answer that than me,
but even my limited grasp of physics says "90 degrees? No way in Hell"...
 

captfitch

Active Member
Well, we've got lots of pilots on here, better qualified to answer that than me,
but even my limited grasp of physics says "90 degrees? No way in Hell"...
No for a number of reasons.... It's hard to describe but at that altitude any plane (including high performance jet aircraft like military fighter jets) are going both very fast and very slow at the same time. I say that because the air density at high altitudes results in a very high ground speed and a low indicated airspeed. If an aircraft attempted a very sharp turn it would easily stall due to it's already low airspeed and now increased g-load.
So in order to stay flying at that altitude, any turn you make needs to be relatively "calm" or shallow. Which means the radius will be resultantly large. Add to that the fact that the ground speed will be high which means from the ground the turn will appear huge. No aircraft can escape these problems no matter what type of thrust vectoring or advance maneuvering capabilities it might have.

So no, no 90 degree turns at altitude. Sorry.
 

Rico

Senior Member
Yeah, an aircraft would practically have to stall (more or less when the wings stop producing lift) in order to produce a 90 degree turn. If it's traveling at a generous speed too, particularly at a high altitude, making a turn like that would black the pilot out if the plane doesn't break apart first due to g-loading. Some planes can technically do a full 180 if it's slow enough to the point where it stops flying, but that's the catch, and has no practical purpose outside of an airshow or a WWII dogfight, and yeah altitudes won't be maintained. VTOLS might be able to swing it's nose around like a helicopter, but you definitely won't be seeing aircraft like those in contrail altitudes trying to pull a 90 degree turn.

Oh yeah, and to translate the above to layman's terms, the thing about high ground speed and low indicated airspeed basically means that because air is less dense up at altitude, a conventional fixed wing aircraft would have to travel a bit faster to maintain flight because of the air required for the wings to produce lift. Ground speed is how fast you are traveling across the ground. Indicated airspeed is just what the pilot reads on his gauge, and is derived from air pressure via a little tube sticking of the aircraft fuselage or wing. If an aircraft is traveling at the same ground speed at 0 feet and 30,000 ft, the indicated airspeed would still be less at 30,000 feet because there is less air going into that little tube. That's why an aircraft is traveling fast and slow at the same time. Consequently, you still need a fixed minimal amount of that air flowing across the wings to produce lift. The end result is that it's easier to stall an airplane at altitude, particularly with sharp maneuvers.

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything though, it's been a few years since I actually cracked open an aerodynamics textbook :D.
 
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Trailspotter

Senior Member
Thanks, I will look at your post again tomorrow on my computer.
When changing the colors on my pics, it appeared to be one trail because of it's curvy appearance. There is a distinct line within the trail that appears connected around the turn. I have pics I will post tomorrow. Orher trails that seem to meet usually don't have an in tact appearance, they usually have a smeared or blurry appearance.
How can you be sure that the non persistant trails aren't the ones you are referencing?
I do not see your new pics, but they probably will not matter anyway. There is no need to be sure about the flights in question leaving persistent trails. You asked to explain the apparently persistent trail that you observed for 20+ minutes and got a detailed explanation of how two planes that crossed their paths could have produced it. I elaborated this further and identified two possible flights that happened to be in a right place at a right time. The more information you have provided since, the more confident has become this identification. It gives us the location of the trails when they crossed each other at about 12:01 EDT, whereas from your video it can be deduced where they were half an hour later, at about 12:32. The locations of trails at other times can be calculated from these data. Also, by taking the wind factor into account the directions of the trails can be refined.

The direction of high altitude wind and its speed, as estimated in my previous post, are 80° and 55 mph, respectively. For DAL1200, heading 63° at 562 mph, it will deflect the trail from the plane course by about 2°, so the trail direction will be 61°. For FTT1121, heading 359° at 510 mph, the trail will deviate from the course by 6°, so its direction will be 353°.

In some of your photos, the trails are above the roof of a house with one of them pointing vertically, that is, directly toward the camera. This house can be readily identified on Google Earth. The (green) line drawn through it at 353° crosses the (yellow) line connecting the two "known" locations of the trails almost exactly in the middle, where the trails are calculated to be at the time of these photos, 12:17 EDT (red line).
Elbow trail viewline.jpg
Elbow trail wind movement.jpg
Calculated positions of the trails at the time of the other photo (12:24 EDT) and at the end of the video (about 12:37 EDT) are shown with cyan and blue lines, respectively. The trails modelled in all calculated positions perfectly match their images your photos and video:
Elbow trail from viepoint.jpg
As you can see, the shapes and positions of the calculated trails are very close to the shapes and positions of the actual trails you have observed and filmed.

The trails that you have observed are not only persistent but also well spread out. You can easily see the difference between them and a short non-persistent trail in your video. These trails are probably hundreds meters wide, much wider than any known aircraft. There is a pattern of more and less dense parts in them, but it has nothing to do with the aircraft original path, it is a random result of spreading process caused by local turbulence. After this pattern formed in first few minutes, it changed very slowly, so it can be used to align the same trail parts observed at different times. Just like I've done in #17 to present evidence for the two separate trails.

And one final point: yes, the faint protrusion below the corner is a part of the trail and it probably is about half mile long. It is there in all photographs and in the video, it is apparent when viewed full screen at 1080p HD ;)
 
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Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
I took this photo this afternoon over London. It was definitely just a coincidental lining up of two contrail segments.

 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Looks like it. The relative position of the other trail looks to match my picture. And I took my photo from central London, facing east; the Twitter poster is from Maidstone, east of London.

Lining up the V shaped contrail with the buildings in London, the point would lie somewhere along this line (I took the photo from the 0km dot in central London). Maidstone is about 10 miles south of that line.

upload_2018-8-21_21-18-26.png
 
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Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Could be these planes:

upload_2018-8-21_21-26-28.png

upload_2018-8-21_21-27-14.png

Crossing point is near Rochester at 18:11 BST. My photo was at 18:27 BST, and the contrails look to be quite aged.

upload_2018-8-21_21-28-28.png



The crossing point is a little south of the line I plotted, and the upper-level winds are from the south which would have moved the trails north:

upload_2018-8-21_21-31-32.png
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
The parallel trail further away was probably FR9457, which passed by about 9 minutes earlier, on a slightly more northerly heading than AF1168:

upload_2018-8-21_22-3-6.png
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Wider view. Second photo is the full frame of the cropped one I posted above. Some of the white lines are reflections of office lights, but you can see other broken contrails.

EA14CB72-A4D0-42CF-8D4D-B03CC216C414.jpeg 9942DF27-161C-49A8-83B4-62CC0592D0AE.jpeg
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Maybe a third angle posted on Facebook. The time of the post fits but I don’t know where it was photographed. The other trail parallel to the longer side of the V doesn’t seem to be there, though.

upload_2018-8-22_11-4-6.png


Edit, the person who took these photos confirms it was over Kent.
28BC9C3C-B837-41A9-8EB9-20AD4421635D.jpeg

Looking at the flight tracks above, the eastbound flight was climbing and reached 34,000 feet just before crossing the other trail which was at that height, which might explain why it started to appear just before meeting that trail.
 
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BigJohnTX

New Member
This was taken Saturday, Nov 9, 2019, about 9am. I was driving north and saw this over to my left (pulled over and snapped some pics; the formation was WNW of me).
This was in Round Rock, Texas (just shy of the Gattis School Rd and A.W. Grimes intersection).
Albeit there is a major airport south of us in Austin, and we do normally have moderate air traffic above us, this 90° contrail shown has no other lines anywhere around it (making the theory of two intersecting lines not work) and, furthermore, the line starts out from a low position, rising, and then turns and shoots 90° and continues to rise in altitude.
This line had just been formed, very shortly before the pic was taken. As I stood there, it began to dissapate and was quickly gone. (The zoomed in pic was taken first; you can already see the dissapation effect taking place by the second image).
We don't buy the idea of this being two different contrails, but logic doesn't allow for this to be a 90° turn of a single aircraft! Planes can't do that, right?!
It still makes my hairs on the back of my neck standup.20191109_085917.jpg 20191109_085932.jpg
 

TEEJ

Senior Member
BigJohnTX,

It is just perspective playing tricks with you. The aircraft trail will be parallel and not really rising at that steep an angle. The turn will also not be that severe. Again it is just perspective deceiving you.

Perspective can be deceptive. This Father and Son were convinced that they were witnessing a missile launch in Florida during 2008. It was just an airliner flying parallel and vectoring onto a new heading.

 

Trailspotter

Senior Member
This was taken Saturday, Nov 9, 2019, about 9am. I was driving north and saw this over to my left (pulled over and snapped some pics; the formation was WNW of me).
This was in Round Rock, Texas (just shy of the Gattis School Rd and A.W. Grimes intersection).
View attachment 38873 View attachment 38874
Thanks for the time and the location of the photo. This allows the identification of the culprit as the Southwest flight 2894:
Screenshot 2019-11-19 at 19.05.18.png

It was just a small correction of the plane course that due to perspective shortening looked from the given location like a 90° turn. I downloaded the flight track in KML format from FlightAware (attached) and looked at it on Google Earth from your location:
Screenshot 2019-11-19 at 19.39.22.png
The track (red lines) matches your photo very well.
 

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Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
We don't buy the idea of this being two different contrails, but logic doesn't allow for this to be a 90° turn of a single aircraft! Planes can't do that, right?!
As the above post shows, minor course corrections can appear like sharp turns when viewed almost "end-on". I posted this photo I took from my office window on here a few years ago:



I took a screenshot of Flightradar24 at the time. (My position is just visible as the blue dot on the left, in London)

 
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