Why bother debunking when... [believers won't change their minds]

[Cairenn]

It is like folks saying that they hate politics. Politics are a fact of life, in any group of more than 2 people. Kids do it, without thinking. Johnny will get Sally to agree that she wants pizza, so they can tag team mom. Politics is what keeps us from getting into more physical violence when we disagree with someone, we see if we can get something we need or want from them.

'Conspiracies' are often the same way. Parents will conspire together to get their children to do their homework and chores.

 

[SeanDWalker]

It's all institutionalised selfishness and fear to me I think, but I see how you can define it as a conspiracy. Humanity conspires and colludes, and that's one of the disconnects I didn't grasp for a long time, that common-garden conspiracy theorist often sees themselves as above this, and usually ends up participating in another form of it.

Self delusion and justification are two of my favourite reading topics at the moment.

I'd say one thing though, I don't define a person who goes along with something because they'd starve if they didn't as 'stupid' necessarily. I USED to, but I don't any more. I see a lot more shades to that kind of thing these days.

I do not mean the individual is stupid, but collectively we are stupid - the individual will starve if they let go of the banking system, the collective wouldn't if they chose to opt out....or at-least stand a better chance against the siege like conditions which would develop.

Find it interesting that you all agree conspiracy is nearly at the core of things in one way or the other; be it little or big, makes me wonder why spend so much time de-bunking the unreal and not highlighting the actual conspiracies? not really a dig, because i'm here reading up on all your de-bunking, rather than plotting my revolution..haha.

 

[Cairenn]

Because the unreal conspiracies have a negative effect. First they undermine the trust that folks have in organizations. While these organizations may have individuals that do wrong, and sometimes they lose their way, it is these same organizations that we need to provide us with what we need, from protection, to the goods and services.

Sometimes the conspiracies can have even worse effects, like the folks that believed the nonsense about the oil spill and that fled the gulf coast, abandoning homes and jobs. There are folks that undergo needless 'detoxing' treatments, and that included children.

 

[Grieves]

I personally think the trust Americans have in some of their security and intelligence organizations is in very dire need of undermining, given the propaganda machines they've got working in their favor.

 

[Mick West]

I personally think the trust Americans have in some of their security and intelligence organizations is in very dire need of undermining, given the propaganda machines they've got working in their favor.

I somewhat agree, but I'd prefer to do it with facts, not bunk and speculation.

 

[Mick West]

I think you're being quite deliberate here, as you know full well of that 6,000 only 100 or so, probably less come from a 'political' background.

I was not being 'deliberate' in the sense of ignoring that. It never occurred to me.

I imagine people are more likely to be politicians if their parents are politicians - but what percentage of MPs have parents who are MPs? Is it higher than the percentage of teachers who have parents that are teachers?

 

[Jazzy]

Find it interesting that you all agree conspiracy is nearly at the core of things in one way or the other.

Conspirators and conspiracy theorists both suffer from trust issues. This makes them less productive in an open society. Those neither committing nor theorizing conspiracy get more work done.

The trick is to get to a stable open society and maintain it - and keep it open. The more open (and well-informed!*) it becomes, the less leverage either of these groups will possess.

* Bunk being misinformation and the antithesis of what is good.

Conspiracy theorists unwittingly** help conspirators by burying the truth within misinformation, and/or missing it entirely. Eroding trust suits the interests of both groups, but not of the rest of us.

** Or maybe not.

 

[JRBids]

Because the unreal conspiracies have a negative effect. First they undermine the trust that folks have in organizations. While these organizations may have individuals that do wrong, and sometimes they lose their way, it is these same organizations that we need to provide us with what we need, from protection, to the goods and services.

Sometimes the conspiracies can have even worse effects, like the folks that believed the nonsense about the oil spill and that fled the gulf coast, abandoning homes and jobs. There are folks that undergo needless 'detoxing' treatments, and that included children.

Effects like this? Our old chemtrail friend and her cronies are getting into ingesting essential oils to purge the Morgellons. I'd like to say "hilarity ensued". . .

 

[Mick West]

Rather more horrific than anything. Unfortunately the type of person who self-diagnoses with Morgellons is also very likely to self treat in extreme ways. You hear about them bathing in bleach, and spending hours picking at their skin. It's very sad.

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1102402

For 4 days I am spitting small specks of wet white crystals, red glitter, pepper corns, tiny crescent worms. I know this is morgellons purging bui I need to know if this is good, how long will this continue, and will I be rid of the worms or are new ones forming as well? Every day for the past week I have been eating about 5-6 navel and clementine oranges, and eating alfalpha sprouts. Also I took 6 combantrim 360 mg pyrantel pamote tablets. Now my hair is spewing wet spits and itching like mad. I used Lyson 4 in 1 and poured hair spray and wore a hat for 2 days. Now After 2 days they are back and busy webbing my hair. I bought R&C shampoo to rid them as lice and nits. I have bathed and sprayed my self with lysol, pine sol, peroxide, undiluted, bleach, ammonia, bathed in pure table salt and rubbed it into my skin, along with Lysol, man does that ever sting. Last night I put Kwellada for scabies and crabs on my skin. I know this is crazy and dangerous, but I am willing to put anything on me to rid the worms. The whole house is covered with the various ever changing wads of hair, coloured cotton balls, white and black carpe loom threads.

 

[Cairenn]

It sounds like that lady needs to clean the house instead of spending her time on her 'disease'. I would expect that all those CHEMICALS she is using are doing a lot of damage to her skin and her body. Taking a pet dewormer--

 

[JRBids]

Rather more horrific than anything. Unfortunately the type of person who self-diagnoses with Morgellons is also very likely to self treat in extreme ways. You hear about them bathing in bleach, and spending hours picking at their skin. It's very sad.

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1102402

For 4 days I am spitting small specks of wet white crystals, red glitter, pepper corns, tiny crescent worms. I know this is morgellons purging bui I need to know if this is good, how long will this continue, and will I be rid of the worms or are new ones forming as well? Every day for the past week I have been eating about 5-6 navel and clementine oranges, and eating alfalpha sprouts. Also I took 6 combantrim 360 mg pyrantel pamote tablets. Now my hair is spewing wet spits and itching like mad. I used Lyson 4 in 1 and poured hair spray and wore a hat for 2 days. Now After 2 days they are back and busy webbing my hair. I bought R&C shampoo to rid them as lice and nits. I have bathed and sprayed my self with lysol, pine sol, peroxide, undiluted, bleach, ammonia, bathed in pure table salt and rubbed it into my skin, along with Lysol, man does that ever sting. Last night I put Kwellada for scabies and crabs on my skin. I know this is crazy and dangerous, but I am willing to put anything on me to rid the worms. The whole house is covered with the various ever changing wads of hair, coloured cotton balls, white and black carpe loom threads.

Gnarly has purchased a microscope and is now filming the "lizard like worms" that are growing out of her skin. When a friend suggesting "scrubbing with borax" she said she tried but they grow from inside the skin and come back. Combine that with a desire to get a missile and shoot down a plane, and people have the nerve to say comments like that aren't dangerous.

 

[Cairenn]

This is a good example of a lie/hoax causeing damage. This is about a teenager Destin Fl, whose family fell victim to the fears about the Corexit poisoning of the Gulf.
Last Oct, a year after the spill, he was healthy enough to compete and win in jet skiing.

Then this shows up

My son is currently detoxing at the Environment Health Center in Dallas. The drs told us yesterday that if we went back to Destin (FL) he would continue to be sick. So when we leave here Thursday we are headed to central Florida with the clothes on our back. They said to take absolutely nothing that it would all have toxins. I am walking away from my life of 45 years living in what I thought was paradise raising 3 kids! Just devastated( ~ Kim Hohnadell

Kim Hohnadell

The doctor doing the 'detox' has lost his license in a couple of states and been repremanded in others

There is a lot more info on this here

https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Gulf-Oil-Spill-Disinformation-Buster-Alliance/202770319832700

It turns out that boy had a Chiari malformation of the brain

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chiari-malformation/DS00839

In spite of that the mom continued believing in the fiction that her son had been 'poisoned'.

 

[Jazzy]

Unfortunately the type of person who self-diagnoses with Morgellons is also very likely to self treat in extreme ways.

I find it difficult to bear reading about it, or even think about M. It's a mind out of control intervening with its body's immune responses, I suppose. Or maybe the very reverse. Or both. Initiated by an unknown stimulus?

Whatever it is, I find it creepy and difficult to deal with. I never wrote much about it, except to observe that the disease history precedes the history of aviation.

I admire you for having addressed it. Euch.

 

[Dog Rescuer]

What is the point of debunking a conspiracy theory when the believer of such conspiracy will not change his mind on the subject? This was a harsh realization for me, and made me wonder what the heck am I doing on such a website like this.

Anyone have any ideas?

I'm certainly a good example of why. I'm not interested in arguments. I have an open mind. I'm well-educated but always did better at writing and math than the hard sciences. I really want to know about chemtrails.

 

[Jazzy]

I'm not interested in arguments. I have an open mind.

Really?

 

[Dog Rescuer]

Really?

ha ha ha. Really.

Throw it at me. I'm interested in the truth. I am as perfectly capable of being invested in being "right" as the next human being. But I am aware of the human nature to stick to an idea no matter what, so I try to be conscious of and mitigate for that.

My goal is to get help discerning information that scares me, not to be "right."

 

[nanotchi]

My goal is to get help discerning information that scares me, not to be "right."

I can agree with this^

I want things to be debunked, so we can have some kind of proof "no, this is wrong." I want that, so I feel more easy around people who believe it.

 

[Jazzy]

Throw it at me.

All you've heard concerns some of the physical properties of water, of which you are unaware. When you become aware of them you will see that chemtrails are pure bunkum.

Becoming aware of them is an effort only you can make. You have already missed being educated during childhood about the physical properties of water, and the atmosphere.

Try not to miss these topics a second time.

 

[Dog Rescuer]

All you've heard concerns some of the physical properties of water, of which you are unaware. When you become aware of them you will see that chemtrails are pure bunkum.

Becoming aware of them is an effort only you can make. You have already missed being educated during childhood about the physical properties of water, and the atmosphere.

Try not to miss these topics a second time.

While I do very much appreciate that you posted for my benefit, I'm not really understanding what you're trying to say to me.

 

[Pete Tar]

While I do very much appreciate that you posted for my benefit, I'm not really understanding what you're trying to say to me.

I think he's saying it requires a reciprocal effort on your part to understand what you're offered.
It can't be a passive thing, and you may have to confirm the truth of what someone says by going to other sources, looking to established peer-research, understanding the accepted basics, etc.

eg, you complained in the other thread about Ross's 'appeal to authority' when he mentioned being a meteorologist, but if you were familiar with the concepts involved you would'nt need to dismiss that but would understand he's just establishing a reference point. To be suspicious without checking out the truth of his statements is a passivity on your part rather than choosing to engage with the evidence, and gives the impression that you don't really want to know. (Just an impression, hopefully that is not so.)

 

[Dog Rescuer]

I think he's saying it requires a reciprocal effort on your part to understand what you're offered.
It can't be a passive thing, and you may have to confirm the truth of what someone says by going to other sources, looking to established peer-research, understanding the accepted basics, etc.

eg, you complained in the other thread about Ross's 'appeal to authority' when he mentioned being a meteorologist, but if you were familiar with the concepts involved you would'nt need to dismiss that but would understand he's just establishing a reference point. To be suspicious without checking out the truth of his statements is a passivity on your part rather than choosing to engage with the evidence, and gives the impression that you don't really want to know. (Just an impression, hopefully that is not so.)

Reciprocal? Perhaps we're only dealing with the idea that your side can't prove a negative. I don't feel anyone's offered me anything that is better than what the believer side has offered. Everything here is an opinion. The pilot says the plane would be too heavy, the weatherman says the dispersal wouldn't work... these are opinions. Where's the data?

I'm not suspicious without checking the truth. I'm here to ask for the same level of certainty that you are asking for. There's no data here. Just opinion. It's no more compelling than the other side's argument.

 

[Dog Rescuer]

All you've heard concerns some of the physical properties of water, of which you are unaware. When you become aware of them you will see that chemtrails are pure bunkum.

Becoming aware of them is an effort only you can make. You have already missed being educated during childhood about the physical properties of water, and the atmosphere.

Try not to miss these topics a second time.

Pete Tar -- like this post -- how is a post about the physical properties of water, that states none of these properties, an argument?

This is just one example of many.

I'm only getting opinions and admonishments to try harder in school 40 years ago.

 

[Jazzy]

Where's the data?

"All you've heard concerns some of the physical properties of water, of which you are unaware."

The above is your "data". Your unawareness of water's physical properties* has allowed you to be led astray. Begin there.

* With respect to its presence in earth's atmosphere, its solubility in air, its high specific heat, its "super" properties. The effects of these properties account for all false "chemtrail" claims.

 

[Jazzy]

Pete Tar -- like this post -- how is a post about the physical properties of water, that states none of these properties, an argument? This is just one example of many.

Wiki can give you the properties. If you don't like Wiki then follow the references.

I'm only getting opinions and admonishments to try harder in school 40 years ago.

And so you should have. (I should have too ! ).

All human beings are intelligent. Not all of them make an effort. Why do you think you can understand something you have never really studied?

 

[Ron J]

ya... I was some sort of a conspiracy theorist at the time, such as believing Climate Change is false and is a natural cycle and all of that stuff. In my 2nd and 3rd year of High School my science teachers (they changed every year) convinced me that 9/11 was made by the government. I know that they were bit out there (if you know what I mean) but the fact they taught us this is bad for the future of society.

Climate does change.

The global warming alarmists coined a new phrase, climate change, when the temperature stopped warming in accordance with their models. The real issue of climate change is political, not scientific. Carbon dioxide is called a pollutant. Plants cannot live without carbon dioxide, thus it is no more a pollutant than oxygen is. Carbon tax. Money for the government to spend, just like the Social Security trust fund is money for the government to spend, beyond what was needed for current benefits. It is about socialism. "Climate change is real and it is dangerous" says the President. The climate has always been dangerous. Hurricanes are not a recent invention. Soldiers nearly froze to death at Valley Forge and Marie Antoinette let them eat cake. 45 straight days of rain in California in 1861. Imagine the flooding. 2013, lowest calendar year rainfall on record in Los Angeles. Currently, warmest winter i recall in the 30+ years i have lived here. A few years ago we had the coolest summer on record.

I saw a video of author Michael Crighton (sp?) on Cspan around the time he died. He said that if he dropped a ball, that a group of scientists would all have essentially the same answer at to how long it would take to hit the floor, but that no one could answer uniformly, what the temperature would be in the year 2100.

In the same year, there was record low sea ice ice in the Arctic, while there was record high sea ice in the Antarctic.

What is science and what is bunk? As Dr. Jones wrote, "where's the warming?" Things were not according to model.

"In an interview with Business Insider from his office in Tennessee, Laffer admitted that he was wrong. The old maxim that dictates increasing the availability of cash through lower interest rates will lead to higher prices, he said, may need to be reexamined.

"Usually when you find the model this far off, you've probably got something wrong with the model, not that the world has changed," he said. "Inflation does not appear to be monetary base driven," he said."

 

[JRBids]

I think he's saying it requires a reciprocal effort on your part to understand what you're offered.
It can't be a passive thing, and you may have to confirm the truth of what someone says by going to other sources, looking to established peer-research, understanding the accepted basics, etc.

eg, you complained in the other thread about Ross's 'appeal to authority' when he mentioned being a meteorologist, but if you were familiar with the concepts involved you would'nt need to dismiss that but would understand he's just establishing a reference point. To be suspicious without checking out the truth of his statements is a passivity on your part rather than choosing to engage with the evidence, and gives the impression that you don't really want to know. (Just an impression, hopefully that is not so.)

Exactly. It's like when I comment on a real estate matter and say "I'm a real estate agent". It's not an appeal to authority, it's pointing out that I have studied the field and know what I'm talking about in that regard.

 

[JRBids]

Reciprocal? Perhaps we're only dealing with the idea that your side can't prove a negative. I don't feel anyone's offered me anything that is better than what the believer side has offered. Everything here is an opinion. The pilot says the plane would be too heavy, the weatherman says the dispersal wouldn't work... these are opinions. Where's the data?

I'm not suspicious without checking the truth. I'm here to ask for the same level of certainty that you are asking for. There's no data here. Just opinion. It's no more compelling than the other side's argument.

There has been MUCH MORE than opinion posted here. That you deny that is saying the facts just don't jibe with what you expect to find.

 

[Ron J]

I didn't know of the existence of bunk till 2007.


You never watched Dragnet? "I was working the 5.30 shift out of bunko..."

 

[Dog Rescuer]

There has been MUCH MORE than opinion posted here. That you deny that is saying the facts just don't jibe with what you expect to find.

I didn't say it was all opinion. i said it was mostly opinion. Any post with data, I thanked the poster for their contribution. I don't trust anyone's opinions, and I have to vett the data, but I don't expect to find anything. I know you don't get people here who just want to know the truth, and I do get defensive like anyone else, but I don't have an agenda besides understanding whether or not my planet is being poisoned.

 

[JRBids]

I didn't say it was all opinion. i said it was mostly opinion. Any post with data, I thanked the poster for their contribution. I don't trust anyone's opinions, and I have to vett the data, but I don't expect to find anything. I know you don't get people here who just want to know the truth, and I do get defensive like anyone else, but I don't have an agenda besides understanding whether or not my planet is being poisoned.

So then what have you discerned from the data posted?

 

[hemi]

The global warming alarmists coined a new phrase, climate change, when the temperature stopped warming in accordance with their models.

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (est 1988).

 

[George B]

I didn't say it was all opinion. i said it was mostly opinion. Any post with data, I thanked the poster for their contribution. I don't trust anyone's opinions, and I have to vett the data, but I don't expect to find anything. I know you don't get people here who just want to know the truth, and I do get defensive like anyone else, but I don't have an agenda besides understanding whether or not my planet is being poisoned.

Hmmmm . . . there is evidence that we pollute every second of every day . . . the waste products of most all human activities including air transportation contribute to fouling our nest . . .

 

[Ron J]

What is the point of debunking a conspiracy theory when the believer of such conspiracy will not change his mind on the subject? This was a harsh realization for me, and made me wonder what the heck am I doing on such a website like this.

Anyone have any ideas?

You never know when someone will change their mind. There have been people who saw a conspiracy in the death of JFK, who have come around to realize there weren't multiple gunmen in Dealey Plaza.

Some have an unshakeable belief and others keep repeating mantras that have been debunked long ago, such as the route was changed, which leave me doubting how much they actually believe in a conspiracy. To them it may be nothing but a game.

Going round and round with the same person becomes kind of pointless after a while, but i think it important to stand up for what i see as being the truth.

 

[Jazzy]

You never watched Dragnet? "I was working the 5.30 shift out of bunko..."

No. I thought it was bunk. I liked the film "LA Confidential", though.

 

[iKnowWhoYouAre]

i love how this forum deletes absolutely everything that the mods disagree with! everything is completely steered to try ridicule anyone who dare speak from outside the metabunk herd of sheep.

 

[Dog Rescuer]

i love how this forum deletes absolutely everything that the mods disagree with! everything is completely steered to try ridicule anyone who dare speak from outside the metabunk herd of sheep.

Was any of my stuff deleted? What was deleted?

 

[iKnowWhoYouAre]

seriously. im happy for all you self righteous all knowing types that you have a place to come and kiss each others butts and put the world to rights.

i hope in your current various states that you are not suffering any financial hardship dished out by the ruling elites and administered by your self elected non representative puppet politicians. i hope that your health isnt suffering from the effects of regulated food and drugs that often serve no greater purpose than to attract you and then poison you. aspartame anyone?

oh-but thats all conspiracy theory isnt it? they dont put that shite in childrens foodstuffs... do they.

whoever you assholes are who run this page... you are a detriment to the common good. clearly you have succeeded in capturing a feeble minded misguided collective of chicken hats to support your cause.

i can assure you that you are very very wrong. you are an absolute minority and most free thinkers will have never even heard of this site.

i dont expect you to publish this post because thats one of the simple ways that you try to manage world opinion isnt it.

 

[iKnowWhoYouAre]

i cant find a single post of mine historically that hasnt been deleted! watch this space innnit : )

 

[Trigger Hippie]

Your post will most probably be deleted because it's rude. When you are posting comments here, try pretending like you're on television and everyone watching knows your name, then act accordingly.

 

[Trigger Hippie]

i cant find a single post of mine historically that hasnt been deleted! watch this space innnit : )

Try looking in your profile page.

https://www.metabunk.org/members/iknowwhoyouare.1495/#postings