How did NIST calculate that the dynamic amplification factor for a suddenly applied load was 2 (FAQ 18)

Shani

New Member
Hi all,

I have been reading through some threads here for a while and the one thing i do not really understand is how NIST calculated the dynamic amplification factor.

They fully explain the static calculation but after watching the Mick West video below (that i really enjoy by the way) that crushed the can so would that be a dynamic amplification factor of 10 as the can could support 10x the static mass but was crushed by dropping it 2ft?


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZCFo3Lcbx8


If so when the top of WTC1 fell around 12ft ( it would be roughly double the velocity the hammer was going when can was hit) would that not be double the velocity of the hammer so 4x the dynamic amplification factor makig it 40 not 2?

Sorry if its a stupid question i just do not get how they calculated it as 2.
 
Sorry if its a stupid question i just do not get how they calculated it as 2.
They didn't calculate it. It's the standard value from the scaling of force for a suddenly applied load, calculated decades earlier.

It's the theoretical maximum, and assumes an ideal undamped spring (which a building is not), so the real value will be less. You can see this experimentally here.



A weight, statically applied, is about 1.3 pounds. I raise it so it's still touching, but not loading, and release it. The peak weight (i.e., downward force) is somewhere over 2 pounds (about 2.3 pounds; it's hard to see with the motion blur). So about 1.77x, a bit less than 2x due to the damping in the scale.

2x is used conservatively large for safety reasons in design. But in the WTC analysis, it's conservatively small. The weight of a falling floor is NOT suddenly applied from 0.0", it's falling. It's also not falling attached to a spring, or landing on a spring. The real forces involved are many times greater, and applied to floors that can't really deflect very much without failing.

The small 2x simply shows that global collapse was inevitable. The details of the collapse are more complicated.
 
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2x is used conservatively large for safety reasons in design. But in this analysis, it's conservatively small. The weight of a falling floor is NOT suddenly applied from 0.0", it's falling. It's also not falling attached to a spring, or landing on a spring. The real forces involved are many times greater, and applied to floors that can't really deflect very much without failing.

Hi Mick,

Thank you for the detailed explanation it has certainly cleared up why that always confused me.

Also i would like to apologize to you and everybody else for failing to post a linked reference to some of the claims in my post, i have not felt qualified to comment on anything so have spent my time here just reading (although not always fully understanding) other peoples work.

I would edit my post to include where i got my information from but (again feeling a bit stupid) i cannot find the edit button.

So i will add them here and move them once i locate the edit function.

https://www.nist.gov/world-trade-center-investigation/study-faqs/wtc-towers-investigation#Results

External Quote:

This simplified and conservative analysis indicates that the floor connections could have carried only a maximum of about 11 additional floors if the load from these floors were applied statically. Even this number is (conservatively) high, since the load from above the collapsing floor is being applied suddenly. Since the dynamic amplification factor for a suddenly applied load is 2, an intact floor below the level of collapse initiation could not have supported more than six floors.
I got the floor height from here:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...WTC_North_Tower_using_computer_simulation#pf3

External Quote:

WTC1 consisted of 110 floors above ground with a roof height of 417 m and a ceiling height of 3.65
m for each occupied floor [10]
After reading through my post again i also made the claim that the upper section of WTC1 12ft and would have double the velocity of the hammer upon impact (I based this on the top section falling at 2/3g). I checked that claim and realised the roughly 2/3g is probably not correct for the initial part of the collapse, i am not sure exactly what it was as there seems to be a lot of differing opinions on that detail.
 
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I would edit my post to include where i got my information from but (again feeling a bit stupid) i cannot find the edit button.

So i will add them here and move them once i locate the edit function.
Hi Shani. welcome.

you should be able to decode "econ41" to my real name I use on the other forum.

This forum has a time limit "edit window". I think it is one hour after posting. Then "edit" is no longer available.

No point me adding more on the topic - the key simple point is that the NIST report refers to "suddenly applied load" which is what occurs when an object is held above and in contact with a lower structure but not applying any load to the structure.

Then, released from support, it applies load to the lower structure without falling and gathering impact velocity.

Falling through any distance results in acceleration, increasing velocity and adding impact loading. Then the other complicating factors especially elasticity of both falling weight and underlying structure come into play.

After reading through my post again i also made the claim that the upper section of WTC1 12ft and would have double the velocity of the hammer upon impact (I based this on the top section falling at 2/3g). I checked that claim and realised the roughly 2/3g is probably not correct for the initial part of the collapse, i am not sure exactly what it was as there seems to be a lot of differing opinions on that detail.
Let me suggest caution if you want to comprehend that critical stage of collapse. It is a topic which saw much misunderstanding in discussions from early days about 2006-7 through to at least 2010-12.

There are many threads here and elsewhere discussing the complexities of the real collapse. The key mistake was that some early papers postulated that the Top Block "dropped" through a one storey gap to impact on the lower structure. The Top Block certainly did not do so. And understanding where any such drop occurred later in the collapse progression needs a comprehensive understanding of the total four stages of the actual collapse mechanism if confusion is to be avoided.

A topic for another thread. I can provide links if you need assistance.
 
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I'll try a verbal explanation of the "factor 2", if y'all don't mind. Numbered list of steps, so you can refer to a number if you have questions:

  1. The thing that's getting loaded is a "floor below". It's carrying itself already, plus any design live load (furniture, people, carpets, cubicle walls...), and probably built such that it's level throughout under that load. Let's define this situation as the null load.
  2. If, hypothetically, you now put another, identical floor on that "floor below", carefully, and wait a bit until everything has settled, you will find that the "floor below" now is sagging a bit - the floor surface is 1 mm or so lower than at null load. That is because the load (the stress) is causing an elastic response, a downward deflection in this case, called "strain". The higher the stress, the higher the strain.
  3. When a steel-supported structure is still well inside its load capacity, you roughly expect stress and strain to be proportional: You double the stress, you double the strain
  4. Ok, so we had loaded the "floor below" with 1 more floor, and observed a deflection of 1 mm. We also observe - because the load is static, so this is practically by definition - that the floors are not moving. Velocity 0. It's static, after all!
  5. Now let's do the dynamic loading instead! Preparation: We place the additional floor juuuuuuuuuuust above the "floor below" - with essentially 0 (unmeasurable) vertical distance, a nanometer or whatever, or juuuuust touching, but we are still holding it up with the exact amount of upward force that gravity pulls the additional floor downward. So the "floor below" experiences 0 stress and reacts with 0 strain.
  6. Then we let go! We suddenly cut all supports of the additional floor, so it starts loading the "floor below". The immediate stress is the weight of the entire floor - but as there is, at t=0, no strain yet, the floor below exerts 0 force - the additional floor falls at gravitational acceleration g
  7. But immediately, because the floors have moved down by an infinitesimally little bit, the floor below goes into tension, it starts to develop strain (deflects downward elastically), and thus starts to excert a force upward. That force at first is mininal and not enough to stop the floors from accelerating, however acceleration decreases a bit, it is no longer at g, it's just below g.
  8. Okay, so the floors keep dropping, strain keeps increasing, upward force from elastic resistance keeps increasing, downwarf acceleration keeps decreasing
  9. Now here comes the clou: at 1 mm deflection, so the value at which the statically loaded system was in equilibrium and didn't move, didn't accelerate or decelerate in any direction, the strain results in an upward force that is equal to the weight of the additional floor - and so the weight is exactly counterbalanced, net force becomes zero, acceleration becomes zero - and velocity reaches its maximum value. Notice: Stress and strain are now the same as in the static scenario - only difference is that the floors are still moving down at some v(max).
  10. And so, the deflection overshoots the 1 mm mark, strain keeps increasing and with it the elastic force response - upward force surpasses static weight, floors start to decelerate, and deceleration increases and increases...
  11. ...until velocity reaches zero, and the floors have reached a maximum downward deflection
  12. Here should go some rigid argument why, but I have none, so you just have to believe me that the plots of motion during the deceleration phase are symmetrical to acceleration phase, i.e. maximum deflection was 2 mm, and the time to get there was twice the time to reach 1 mm. The stress on the floor below, which started at 0, was 1 m*g at 1 mm (in both the static and dynamic case), increased by another 1 m*g at max. deflection - hence a load of 2 m*g - twice the static load.
I hope that makes sense!

--------------

As for the "2/3 g" or whatever acceleration:
As econ41 said, much confusion reigns. Let me add to that confusion!

A value of "2/3 g" was the result of David Chandler, when he did a motion analysis for the first few stories that a tower collapsed - until his reference point (something on the roofline? The North Tower antenna? I don't even remember) disappeared behind dust. That "2/3 g" was essentially an average acceleration for that phase of collapse. Chandler's plot looked a bit like that's a constant value, but there was noise in the data, and the deduction of velocity and then acceleration is very sensitive to imprecision in grainy data.

Several people, myself included, have modelled the tower undergoing collapse progression as a stack of floors, each 0 mm thick, without any columns whatsoever, suspended up in the air by magic, separated by 12 feet of vacuum, and the collapse starting at floor 95 or 82 or whatever with 15 or 28 floors already lumped together. These lumped floors now start falling freely through the first 12 ft of vacuum, then hit a single floor below inelastically, so that floor below is accrued to the falling lump, and momentum is transfered between the lump and the floor below. At the exact same time, the floor below is released from its magical suspension, so it can fall in unison with the lump without any additional structural resistance.

In such a model, acceleration is always = g between any two floors, and negative infinity at the precise impact time between lump and floor below. If you take each floor - the combination of 12 feet of vacuum freefall and instant velocity reduction by momentum transfer, that takes time t and changes velocity by a value v, such that the average acceleration for that floor is v/t.

It turns out that this acceleration is something like 94% of g for the first floor, 80-something % for the second, and it decreases such that after something like 10 floors it is around 2/3 of g, and or after 15 or 20 floors averaged about 2/3 of g. The acceleration continues to decrease - but at long last it asymptotically approaches a value that appears to be 1/3 of g.

A Czech engineering professor, Ivan Nemec, did an analytical model, which he smoothed by, conceptually having infinitel many floors of 0 thickness spaced 0 apart from one another, and with that model, he rigorously showed that indeed the limit value is 1/3 of g - and because his model is smooth and already has infinitely many drop-collision cycles through the first 0.00000001 s, his model would predict 1/3 of g from the start.
And because that is only half of Chandler's observed 2/3 of g, they argue that the collapse was way faster than possible if pancaking was the driver.
But, of course, the towers did not have infinitely many floors, and thus the discrete model with 12 ft spacings gives the better idea of what would happen.

Now, why is this model at all of interest?
Because, as econ41 never tires to point out, the Bazant-model, where column-crush is the dominant mode of resistance, is not what happened in reality. The ends of columns falling from above did not realistically hit the ends of standing columns below - mostly, columns bypassed one another. And thus, pancaking was a dominating mechanism of collapse progression at least in the early stages. We can observe on some videos how floor after floor collapsed, making dust shoot out many windows on the same floors, while the walls were still standing many stories higher. In severalinstances, it is rather obvious that big, tall pieces of wall simple toppled over/outward as a result of all the floors connected to them having first pancaked down, deleting lateral support.

The model with the magically floating pancakes results in accelerations and total collapse times reasonably in line with what was observed from collapse videos: 2/3 g average early on, but then slowing behind dust clouds to explain collapse times of 12 to 15 seconds or thereabouts.
 
I'll try a verbal explanation of the "factor 2", if y'all don't mind. Numbered list of steps, so you can refer to a number if you have questions:
I won't offer detailed comments on your 12 steps at this stage.
The "factor 2" arises from aspects of fundamental physics that are independent of any specific application to the WTC collapses.
SuddenAppliedLoad3.png


There are many explanations of the maths accessible by Google.


So your 12 steps represent an explanation of the fundamental generic issue as applied to WTC specifics.

I want to raise a couple of disclaimer aspects first - I can return to discuss the 12 step specifics later if it is appropriate.

I hope that makes sense!
Sufficient for this stage of discussion - I'm leaving detailed comments on the 'back burner' for now.

This second part of your post raises another issue which I suggest needs clarification to avoid an ambiguity.
As for the "2/3 g" or whatever acceleration:
As econ41 said, much confusion reigns. Let me add to that confusion!
Let me address one issue of potential confusion:
A value of "2/3 g" was the result of David Chandler, when he did a motion analysis for the first few stories that a tower collapsed - until his reference point (something on the roofline? The North Tower antenna? I don't even remember) disappeared behind dust. That "2/3 g" was essentially an average acceleration for that phase of collapse.
There are two relevant aspects involving "2/3 g".
First the Chandler version which you identify. And it was Chandler's assessment at the start of motion. Not clearly identified as to "stage" by Chandler - it predates efforts to attempt rigorous definition of "stages". It is actually the first sub-stage of "Progression".

I have previously suggested reasons why the second "major" stage - Progression - needs to be subdivided into "Early Progression" and "Established Progression". Set aside that distinction for now - I will probably make a separate observation later in this post.

The point of ambiguity I'm drawing attention to here is that "2/3 g" also is (sort of) accepted as the average "rate" of the progression stage. It is not the same "2/3 g" that Chandler identified.

That "2/3 g" during progression arose from multiple early efforts to understand Twin Towers collapse from assessments of momentum. (From memory F Greening was one prominent pioneer.) (I Nemec was a later contributor - he identified "1/3 g" but the difference is not relevant to my points viz the "Chandler 2/3 g" is not the Progression stage "2/3 g" AND the "Progression 2/3 g" is consistent with - bridges the two separate paths - between "columns missing AKA 'ROOSD'" and momentum assessments.

Those momentum based efforts ran in parallel and disconnected from all the column crushing analyses and debate including "Missing Jolt".
Nobody put the two together. It must have been about 2012 before my own "eureka" point when I recognised the interrelationship.

Several people, myself included, have modelled the tower undergoing collapse progression as a stack of floors, each 0 mm thick, without any columns whatsoever, suspended up in the air by magic, separated by 12 feet of vacuum, and the collapse starting at floor 95 or 82 or whatever with 15 or 28 floors already lumped together.
Agreed and the point I've already referenced.

Here is where our interpretations differ.

Note I identify "early progression" as distinct from "established progression".

Because the momentum based analyses - all I recall seeing - all assume "established progression" i.e. "pancaking" floor on floor (or floor debris on floor). That clarity of floor on floor was (IMNSHO) not established in "early progression". There were undemolished perimeter column sheets imposing both downwards force on lower tower floors and upwards force on Top Block floors. A period of mutual destruction of Top Block and upper levels of lower tower.

ArrowedROOSD.jpg

Credit "Achimspok" - my blue lines and yellow arrows.

(And, dare I mention,...Nah. Leave it for now)

Now, why is this model at all of interest?
Because, as econ41 never tires to point out, the Bazant-model, where column-crush is the dominant mode of resistance, is not what happened in reality.
I've just about given up. I thought it was accepted but I'm seeing regression.

But here is the relevant bit:
The ends of columns falling from above did not realistically hit the ends of standing columns below - mostly, columns bypassed one another. And thus, pancaking was a dominating mechanism of collapse progression at least in the early stages.
I disagree "early stages" - pancaking was dominant in "established progression". (Tho I prefer to not use the term "pancaking" because of historic confusions it has caused. No problem here - among friends.)

So there are a couple of nuances in this next bit:
We can observe on some videos how floor after floor collapsed, making dust shoot out many windows on the same floors, while the walls were still standing many stories higher. In severalinstances, it is rather obvious that big, tall pieces of wall simple toppled over/outward as a result of all the floors connected to them having first pancaked down, deleting lateral support.

The model with the magically floating pancakes results in accelerations and total collapse times reasonably in line with what was observed from collapse videos: 2/3 g average early on, but then slowing behind dust clouds to explain collapse times of 12 to 15 seconds or thereabouts.
...which we can discuss if necessary.
 
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