1. EricL

    EricL Member

    I would add to that idea something that would be a totally expected consequence of the presence of stairwells and ventilation equipment. As to the stairwells, pressurized air from a currently-collapsing floor would naturally enter a stairwell at its interface with that floor, and this process would continue as successive floors collapsed. Compressed air pushed into the stairwell would naturally make its way to lower floors, since any substantial pressure increase in the stairway would simply blow open the stairwell doors on lower floors (stairwell doors normally do not latch, and they open only outward, away from the stairwell). The same would apply to ventilation structures, but without having one-way doors to push open. You would expect that if the effect of this sort of thing became visible at all, it would be more apparent near the end of the collapse, because there'd be less reserve volume for the air to be driven into within the floors below near the end of the event than near the beginning. To me, the bottom line here is that there's nothing about a few squibs popping out from weak points on lower floors that strikes me as being unexpected, from a physics standpoint.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  2. Jeffrey Orling

    Jeffrey Orling Active Member

    It makes more sense to me.... that the pressure build up and subsequent release we see as the puffed ejections are related to the elevator shafts. Stairwells have ventilation openings/shafts and lots of doors... though most would open in and not be easily blown out.

    All the elevator shafts are terminated at a pit... the shafts contain multiple elevators. It seems more likely to me that some slabs above the shafts may have been released-broken free and began to plunge down into the shaft acting like a piston... compressing the air in the shaft. The weakest place opened up and the pressurized air escaped.... probably elevator doors. Or maybe HVAC riser shafts?
     
  3. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    unless firefighters opened it.
     
  4. Jeffrey Orling

    Jeffrey Orling Active Member

    Maybe... but why would they force elevators open? To remove people stuck in the cab? Were there reports of this on those upper floors?
     
  5. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    the stairwell doors.
     
  6. Nada Truther

    Nada Truther Active Member

    I am pretty sure that there might have been other channels for air to pass. Stairwells, perhaps? I am pretty sure that here were ways to get out, and if the elevator shafts "ended" you weren't just stuck there. There were elevator shafts that stretched the entire length. The doors could have been open or blown off. Maybe the elevators were at the floor just below and when the air blast hit the elevator, it evacuated out of the floor above. Do we know where each elevator was at the time of collapse? I know that some hit the ground floor, but were they all accounted for? Just a piece of a theory...
     
  7. EricL

    EricL Member

    I think you are right about the direction that the doors open. I'm not sure why I momentarily pictured the opposite. In any case, we both agree that there are passageways between floors, and air that's compressed on any particular floor has no reason not to flow toward the floors below.
     
  8. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    Wrong way round - what he's saying is that controlled demolition uses the weight and speed of falling structure to demolish a building without needing anything else once movement has started.
     
  9. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    Remember:

    There is, to date, not a single reason to believe the Plasco collapsed due to something other than fire-induced damage.

    The most reasonable reading of any puffs of smoke, whether near or far from the collapse front, ist that those are incidental to a fire-induced collapse, and thus a-priori possible in any other fire-induced collapse. This would include, by way of example, the WTC twin towers.

    Conversely, this debunks the old AE911Truth fairy tale that these puffs can only be explained as an effect of explosive demolition charges.

    To reverse this logic, Truthers would have to present actual evidence that explosive charges went off.
    There is plenty of evidence that none went off - the most obvious being the clear absence of any "bang" sounds consistent in timing, loudness, number and brisance with explosive CD charges.
    In particular, the puffs of smoke are ominously unaccompanied by any bang-sounds.
     
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  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Another example


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42B34bYwFBM

    https://france3-regions.francetvinf...nt-immeuble-charleville-mezieres-1571088.html
    Here's the video focussing just on the expulsion of air


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCRmLRMncxk


    Given that this is such a fundamental part of the 9/11 Controlled Demolition mythology, I think it probably would be a good subject for some more detailed investigation and explanation. Something along the same lines as the microspheres investigation.
     
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  11. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Looking at existing Truther literature on the topic, theres this older AE911 post:

    http://www1.ae911truth.org/news-section/41-articles/585-faq-8-squibs

    This newer AE911 page:
    https://www.ae911truth.org/evidence/explosive-features
    Which references this Kevin Ryan article:
    https://www.ae911truth.org/evidence...ris-from-point-like-sources-in-the-wtc-towers
    http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2007/Ryan_HVBD.pdf

    In which he engages in a lot of assertive reasoning. But perhaps key is:
    132 psi is a lot. The WTC windows were mostly narrow, just 18 inches wide by 86 inches high, so 1548 square inches. So 132 psi would create over 200,000 pounds of pressure pushing against the window. It seems like far less than that would be required, and vastly less if the window was already damaged.

    But Ryan's point is that high pressures could not have been achieved because A) the falling mass was not a flat surface, and B) the space it was falling into had holes (like stairwells and lift shafts) where the air would have escaped.

    Like many conspiracy theories, this bit of evidence survives because of a lack of understanding of the issues of scale. Besides the common square/cube misconception, a big point is that air molecules are of fixed size, and of limited velocity. It takes time for air pressure to move from one spot to another, especially through limited openings.

    Anyway, investigating and explaining these puffs will probably take quite a while, but I think it's worth doing, as it's just a cornerstone of the CD theory.
     
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  12. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member


    Source: https://youtu.be/IxTSKzQIsEs?t=141


    This video posted earlier is useful in identifying the most puzzling expulsions. There's one on the 35th floor of the South Tower that seemingly have been powered by air pressure (and debris) going down the elevator shafts. I suspect it also is a window that is broken by debris, and not simply air pressure.
    Metabunk 2018-11-08 12-40-17.

    If we are to explain all the expulsions, then we might as well start with this one.
     
  13. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    So a useful thing to determine would be if the window was broken before the expulsion. This is the South face of the South Tower. The same face that was hit by the plane. The window is about here:
    Metabunk 2018-11-08 12-48-44.

    Metabunk 2018-11-08 12-49-05.

    It seems plausible that IF the window was broken earlier, then this would show up in photos.

    Of course it's also possible that it was broken just before the expulsion, by relatively small bits of bouncing debris from the inside.
     
  14. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    the SH hook windows don't show up in photos from across the parking lot. I think unless you find closeup shot, the chances of seeing a broken or cracked window are going to be slim at best. and if your'e zoomed in that close, then will we know where exactly on the building it is?
     
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  15. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    My hope is that there would be large photo of sufficiently high resolution somewhere.
     
  16. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    From the same video at 27:40 the elevator operator describes how after the plane impacts some elevators fell, and some blasted their doors off.

    Source: https://youtu.be/Yo1WZ9g1IJ4

    Which might have led to some broken windows.
     
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  18. Nada Truther

    Nada Truther Active Member

    Is it possible that the windows were broken by people? I know that it is pretty low, and probably wouldn't show much on the floor for need to break a window, but I wasn't in there to speak to the need in the situation. Maybe there was some smoke, and a person broke it to vent the floor a little. Maybe the stairs were jammed on the way down, and someone was looking fro an alternative way out. Either way, these squibs do not look like sudden puffs from explosions, but more like streams of puffed air. I can't believe that this theory is still alive.
     
  19. Jeffrey Orling

    Jeffrey Orling Active Member

    several mistakes/misstatements in that film
     
  20. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's pretty old (2002). Some interesting reference video though.