1. Joe

    Joe Senior Member

    Thats Alabama Im no where near that . Your closer being in Clinton country why dont you go Jay ? :)
     
  2. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    From where I am I would have to swim over 200 miles. Too cold this time of year for such a long swim.:D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Joe

    Joe Senior Member

    ╭⌒╮~ ╭⌒╮ ╭⌒╮~ ╭⌒╮ ~
    FLY ==============================✈ :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    That was my point also.

    Looks like it's already out of the shop:
    http://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/Boeing/737/25052,N448KA-Kahala-Aviation-Leasing.php

    Two of these are the ones that I listed in my previous post as 'suspects'.

    The third went to the new operator already:
    http://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/Boeing/737/25261,EI-STE-Air-Contractors.php

    Indeed several more candidates, unfortunately no serial no. or registration given ...
    No 'Africa' connection, though.
     
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  5. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    One more candidate:
    http://www.aeronautical-engineers.com/Kahala Converts One AEI B737-400SF Option to Firm Order 12-5-2013.pdf
    (addition and emphasis by me)

    So this is in the shop right now, plus it sounds like they started converting without having the final order.
    Just the plane that you could play around with, trying unusual equipment.

    kahala.
    The Kahala conversions do in fact have those two emergency exits over the wing, like on the leaked photos. The name "Kahala" might lead people to believe it's an African operator - even when it is based in Ireland.

    If the "planespotters" database is correct, the registration for this plane would be N431LF (formerly TC-SKD).
     
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  6. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I don't have a chopper at my disposal, Joe, only a helipad
     
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  7. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    This helped with an update on "Kahala 3" (MSN 25372).
    wdhn_still.
    In the video (shot on Dec. 4th), there is this view of one hangar with a color-stripped plane; however, the remaining livery on the rudder is consistent with the one from Sky Airlines, the previous operator of TC-SKD.
    http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=1213768
    Very likely that this is the plane in the hangar.

    The state of the conversion is obviously not consistent with what we are seeing on the leaked photos, moving this plane down in the plausibility ranking.

    After "Kahala 1" (MSN 25052) having been completed by Oct. 7th, there is one more plane left unaccounted for: "Kahala 2", for which we don't have any ID yet.
    Unfortunately, the "planespotters" site is down ATM - it has been very useful so far.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
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  8. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
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  9. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    Isn't the equipment claimed to be in Miami tho - hence all these planes in Dothan are definitively NOT it??
     
  10. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    The original blog entry doesn't mention a specific place.

    The "Commercial Jet" tractor had pointed to Miami because their headquarter is there. However, they are obviously branching out.

    The structure of the hangar framework in the leaked photos looks identical to the one in the AEI press release describing the conversion of ZS-JRC, which was completed in Dothan (see previous post by A380).
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
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  11. A380

    A380 Member

    And in the video from Joe can be seen:

    https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ex...f-chemtrail-dispersal-system.2772/#post-78557

    That's why I was fixated on Pemco because the hangars look elsewhere otherwise. Slim windows under the roof, inclined stanchions - that was Pemco. And since April, it is Commercial Jet.

    BTW I have written to Commercial Jet.
     
  12. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    Ah- OK - thanks I missed the last post on the previous page where that was all outlined.

    TBH tho I have seen hangers that look pretty identical & are hundreds of miles apart - especially those of ex-military construction from wartime (WW2 in my case - yes they were cold and draughty and creaked!!) - so some comparison with available Miami hangers would help make the point.
     
  13. Joe

    Joe Senior Member

    Google earth the building it does say Pemco above the doors
     
  14. Hingefactor

    Hingefactor Member

    So, the website that started this discussion is spreading among my local conspiracy theory community. I got into a Facebook conversation about it, which resulted in me being ridiculed and dismissed. I was entirely polite in the conversation. I just presented facts, and logic. I felt like I was talking in circles while being attacked.

    I presented logical arguments, such as that you can now get smart phone apps that will identify every airplane you see in your airspace. You can find out where they originated from, and where they are going. You can differentiate between cargo, and passenger. I pointed out that if you really wanted to put in a bit of hard work, you could identify an airplane that you think is "spraying", find a friend in the airport where it's going to land, and get visual confirmation that it's just a passenger plane etc. Of course, that kind of thinking is completely ignored.

    I pointed out that if chemtrails are daily, high volume occurance, then where are they being refilled with the chemicals? Why are there no reports from passengers, ground crew and pilots. No matter how logical my questions are, they are dismissed and ridiculed. I have no problem with that.

    I pointed out that I'm well aware of commercial and military operations that could be considered "spraying", such as cloud seeding, oil dispersant spraying, sky writers, forest fire air drops. All presented for balance. None of it mattered. I offered contact info for a professor of aeronautics at MIT, and suggested that they contact him and ask about chemtrails. Nothing. I was ridiculed for that too, because apparently every professor is a government shill.

    I mentioned that the photos on the website have no context. It's all speculation. Nothing showed the inside of the airplane, and there's no proof that the collection of photos is actually related. Dismissed.

    I researched the domain of the website, which is anonymously registered. The author of the article is also anonymous - Grimnir Freeman. Grimnir actually means "Masked One", and his only web presence is on CT websites, particularly ones that mention "liberty".

    So, I have a question - how do you deal with people that are convinced? Is it simply impossible? Some of the folks in the conversation kept googling things to prove they are right, including adding in the "What are they spraying" video, and I pointed out that Google only shows you what you want to see based on your past searches. Silence.

    One of the participants, who lives in San Francisco mentions that he's spent countless hours observing "spraying":

    " I live on the top of one of the tallest hills in San Francisco and from my bedroom have a full view of the sky. And on hundreds of occasions, with my own two eyes have watched planes systematically white out the sky with whatever the hell they are spraying. I've seen planes turn on and off the spray. I've seen planes flying at 30k do 180 degree turns (with full spray) and go back and fill in the spots that they have missed. I watched two planes laying down trails almost collide in the sky over San Francisco (I have the video to prove it.) All you have to do is watch them turn a blue sky to a milky white metallic sludge and I guarantee that most doubters (with just a little bit of basic observation) will be able to see that something is off."

    That person then stormed off with an "I don't give a shit" after I mentioned contrails. That person is also a fan of Dutchsince.

    The common thread in my local CT community is that they are all musicians, mostly brilliant. I've read a bunch of papers concerning the psychology of CT'ers, and a common thread is that highly creative, talented people engage in them. The people I deal with are not stupid, quite the opposite. But, a common thing that's been observed in highly creative people is a form of schizophrenia. Is that what's going on here?

    In conclusion, should I just ignore CT'ers, no matter how hard it is to listen to them infect others with their BS? Is there a better way to use logic and reasoning in conversations? Or, is it just a huge waste of time?


     
  15. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Be polite. Be patient. Focus on demonstrating their mistakes. Think of it as contributing a gradual overall cooling, rather than putting out the fire. You can't just instantly fix people, but you can help on average, over time.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. Hingefactor

    Hingefactor Member

    That's great advice, but, it seems to me that CT'ers are so in love with their theories that they refuse to consider the possibility that they are wrong. I always challenge them to prove to me that they are right, but, that goes nowhere.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It can take years.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Hingefactor

    Hingefactor Member

  19. Strawman

    Strawman Active Member

    Yes, usually they will not admit defeat. It all takes time and distance. But I've seen a committed chemtrailer reevaluate the evidence. Not publicly, at first. She just disappeared for a while. Then, a few months later, she was back again, with open questions and eager to listen to answers. Now she knows she has been misled by chemtrail activists. And boy, is she pissed.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  20. Joe

    Joe Senior Member

    Or you may never convince them at all . I have the same problem convincing people on the other side of the political spectrum that they have it wrong . Will I change them ? Maybe some but some people regardless of the beliefs will never change . Its their right as free thinking human beings . Their is no proof that that aircraft is being used for chemtrails but no one has proven what it is for . I called them myself they told me it was for oil dispersant that doest mean I was told the truth because afterwards he wouldnt have asked me for the plane number unless they do many of the same retrofits .
     
  21. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I've noticed he same thing about creative people. Creativity is partly the ability or even enjoyment of finding pleasing patterns in an artistic way.
    Conspiracy thinking is exactly that.

    It might help for you to read some success stories from people who came "out of the rabbit hole", plus how and why they got there.
    Here is a link:
    https://www.metabunk.org/forums/out-of-the-rabbit-hole.29/
     
  22. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    Update on location and plane identification, just for completeness sake:

    The conversion of MSN 25181 was finished; however, it was done in Miami according to AEI's press release:
    http://www.aeronautical-engineers.c... B737-400SF 11 Pallet Conversion 12-10-13.pdf

    That reduces the list of 'suspects' to two planes:
    • N287AL (serial no. 25184), for ASL
    • N451KA (serial no. 24903), for Kahala
    Regarding the hangars in Dothan and Miami:
    The buildings of "Commercial Jet" at Miami Intl. are very large concrete structures (as seen on Google Earth and StreetView) - whereas the largest hangar at Dothan looks just like what we would expect from the various indoor photos:
    dothan_hangar_sv.
    (StreetView with some distortions, from Hayes Drive looking NW)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Joe

    Joe Senior Member

    http://www.planespotters.net/search.php?q=N451KA http://www.planespotters.net/search.php?q=N287AL
     
  24. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

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  25. A380

    A380 Member

  26. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    if chemicals are sprayed out of an airplane that high up where its so windy, are those tanks big enough to do anything? I would think an airplane that big would hold bigger tanks. helicopters can hold 500-1500 liters it says.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  27. Hingefactor

    Hingefactor Member

    Here's a good question to ask the chemtrail believers - why dont "they" just "spray" at night, instead of during the day? Hmmm....
     
  28. Hingefactor

    Hingefactor Member

    Here's an even simpler question. None of the photos in the article show the interior of the airplane, so there's zero proof that the pump or tanks are even inside of it. Also, isn't it possible that something is either being pumped into the airplane, like insulation? Or, being pumped out of it during interior construction?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    Simple . . . if I believed they existed . . . the injected material could be activated by visible light and night applications would be useless. . . or the powers doing the dirty deed wants the public to know they are being sprayed and have no power to stop it . . . or simply the wind vectors are better a night than during the day . . . less mixing of thermal layers, etc. . .
     
  30. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    They say they're spraying at night also.
     
  31. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    Who is to say there are not multiple objectives or even multiple players . . . using different injection materials and techniques . . . there is no monolithic or unified Chemtrail theory out there . . .
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  32. Hingefactor

    Hingefactor Member

    If one of my chemtrail believer friends said any of that, my response would be 1) what expertise do you have to make those claims. And 2) Prove it, either night or day. Trace the route of the airplane you believe you saw sprayed anything, and show me how it's being refilled, without anybody on the ground, at any airport ever seeing anything.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  33. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    Well, you will normally get
    1) I can see with my own eyes, the chemtrails sometimes fill the skies . . .
    2) You need to prove to me that they are not doing the spraying, and all the operations are covert just like the Manhattan Project, underground bases, Area 51, the secret space program, organized crime, the free masons, the majestic 12, bases on the moon and Mars . . . Big Foot, etc. . .
     
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  34. Hingefactor

    Hingefactor Member

    Of course, but isn't the burden of proof on those making the claims? If so, the believers have failed miserably. They believe for the sake of believing.
     
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  35. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    Bingo!!! . . . a belief doesn't rely on data or facts or the scientific method . . . it is intuition at best and simply emotional reaction at the worst . . . it is like trying to convince a Christian that Buddhism is a better belief system . . . that does not mean Chemtrail believers are hopelessly naive or bad people but they many times are not serious concrete thinkers and are subjective in their world view . . .
     
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  36. Pete

    Pete Member

    Long shot, but if its a diesel pump, is one an air intake, and the other an exhaust? The pump would need to draw air from outside the fuselage... Sorry to pee on anyone's bonfire.
     
  37. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I'm still thinking west nile spray. although i have no idea if a 737 can do that.

    it looks like the c130s MASS set ups almost exactly.
    palletized Modular Aerial Spray System.

    I lost the pdf link but they use a plug for the spray arms through some door thing. and when I looked up oil dispersant they are trying to replace the Hercules (Harp..no kidding..Hercules replacement program or something like that) suggested 727s or 737s. they picked 727s for oil cause they are bigger apparently (never would have guessed that!). anyway the nozzle is a bit different but the old MASS nozzles are apparently all breaking and hard to replace. Not sure how efficient a 737 would be for west nile but you spray it 'lighter' then say putting out fires?

    this link isn't a good one (im so bad at saving links then can never find them again, PDFs don't save in history apparently.) but kinda shows how you put the arm through a plug.

    http://www.google.com/patents/WO2002024529A1?cl=en


    c1302.JPG c130.JPG 2012 report.JPG reort2.JPG arm.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  38. Joe

    Joe Senior Member

    Sure looks like the same type of nozzle in bottom right picture
     
  39. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    it was bigger pic in the PDF I cant find. the nozzle in that pic is metal looking. it was a military pdf on 'modifiable? planes' ?
     
  40. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    Final (?) update on the 'suspects':
    • N287AL (serial no. 25184) is now F-GIXU, ferry flight date given as 18-12-2013 at planespotters
    • N451KA (serial no. 24903) is now G-JMCS, delivery date given as 15-01-2014 at planespotters
    Both aircrafts seem to have spent a long time at Dothan which is about the only remarkable point in comparison to other conversion projects there.

    My (totally unproven) guess is that the plane on which the pump integration was tested is actually MSN 24903. It must have been in Dothan for more than eight months, with the freight conversion obviously not being rushed.

    As said before, the statement "going to Africa" in the original story might refer to an assumption based on the name of the owning company "Kahala". It might also have been a mix-up with the conversions for Safair.