1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    IMG_3028 copy.
    Public Law 105-85 (U.S. Code Title 50, Chapter 32, § 1520a) came into effect in 1997. It makes it illegal for the military to test biological and chemical weapons on people, and also makes it illegal to conduct peaceful experiments on people without their informed consent. It reads:
    That's a bit of a wall of text, so let's break it down:
    (a) The military can not test chemical or biological things on people
    (c) Unless they have the informed consent of each individual in advance
    (d) AND notice has been given to congress
    (b) AND only if it's for peaceful purposes, defenses against weapons, or for purposes related to riot control​

    Notice I changed the order there. It does not change the meaning at all, I just wanted people to focus on (c) Informed consent required. Meaning they can only do it if they have your informed consent.

    Nevertheless, you see things like this passed around on Facebook.

    This is totally backwards. The law very specifically forbids the testing of biological weapons in any circumstances whatsoever. They can't do it even if they get your consent.

    No only does it forbid the testing of biological and chemical weapons, it also forbids the testing of anything else at all, unless you've given your informed consent.

    The worst thing that this law allows would be the testing of things like tear gas on you, but only if you specifically agree to let them do it, and congress has been notified of the study.

    Various sites try to force their own interpretation of this law:
    Again this is backwards. Firstly it's not for "nearly any purpose", it quite specifically excludes chemical and biological weapons in any circumstance. And while (b) does give exceptions for (a) they have totally ignored that part (c) applies to part (b). Hence informed consent is always required.

    But they go on to suggest that this is "just a trick"
    They arrive at this backwards conclusion by basically making up their own definition of "informed consent". They make the rather head-spinningly circular claim that adding a clause requiring consent means you don't actually have to get consent as the subject should know that you are supposed to have consent. But what is the actual definition and usage in law?

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Informed Consent
    So besides the actual obvious step to giving agreement, you've also got to be told everything about the study. If there are any secrets, then you can't even give consent. Informed consent is not about being told something will be done. It's being told everything about that thing, and then specifically agreeing to it.

    The legality of informed consent is quite well studied, and nowhere does the backwards and circular usage of "awareness of the law requiring consent being equal to the consent that is required" even make an appearance.
    So even if you have explicitly given your fully informed consent, if the test affects anyone who hasn't, or cannot (like children, or the mentally ill) then it is illegal.

    And remember this is a law prohibiting testing on human subjects. Even if you gave your fully informed consent, and even if the test did not affect anyone else, then the test STILL has to satisfy all the other laws that govern such things.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2014
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  2. KAT

    KAT Active Member

    This would be based on the general principle that "ignorance of the law is no defence", ie a law applies to you even if you don't know about it, as long as it has been properly published. In practice, serious laws about serious matters that apply to everyone usually get widespread publicity, eg if they change what side of the road to drive on, or prohibit watering at certain hours in times of drought.

    They DID expose people to atomic bomb tests without consent, and a lot of experiments, military and medical both, used to be done on prisoners. I believe for dangerous ones they chose people on death row. I can check this tomorrow if it's relevant.
  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    That's what they are trying to argue, but it does not apply here, as it's not about ignorance of the law, it's about ignorance of the full details of the study (as well as actually having to give consent).

    The atomic bomb tests were probably legal at the time. This law came into effect in 1997. There is some discussion of the change in the law here:
  4. jonnyH

    jonnyH Active Member

    This law only applies to the Secretary of Defence and I would hope he knows about it.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Yeah, you'd have to argue that the Secretary of Defense knows that you should know that he knows he needs to get your informed consent, therefore he does not need to, because knowing someone knows you know you need to do something is the same as actually doing that thing, hence all laws are invalid, or some such.
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  6. jonnyH

    jonnyH Active Member

    Its not going to fly, it being something he is expected to know about due to his position it would be imputed i.e. the court will pass judgement on the basis that he did know without regard to whether or not he actually did. As KAT pointed out,
    Its probably on a list of do's and don'ts in the Secretary of Defence induction pack.
  7. KAT

    KAT Active Member

    Ignorance of law doesn't even apply to YOU and ME (tho in minor matters they might let us off).. The Secretary of Defence has a whole huge multi trillion dollar department that includes lawyers to make sure he does it right, (or at least doesn't get caught).
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  8. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's not a serious argument. :) The "ignorance of the law" discussion really has no relevance here at all, except that it was brought up in on of the conspiracy theory articles in an obviously specious way.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2014
  9. D3FC0NZ3R0

    D3FC0NZ3R0 Member

    "The Secretary of Defense may not conduct (directly or by contract)—
    (1) any test or experiment involving the use of a chemical agent or biological agent on a civilian population; or
    (2) any other testing of a chemical agent or biological agent on human subjects."

    I'm curious about the redundancy here; why not just replace 'civilian population' with 'human subject' and get rid of '2'?...Oh, wait...this is a product of Washington D.C.
    • Like Like x 1
  10. KAT

    KAT Active Member

    Essentially, this safeguards all humans, and CIVILIAN aliens (ET variety). There is also a subtle difference between experiment and testing. Testing implies seeing if it's safe, experiment implies let's see what happens if....
  11. D3FC0NZ3R0

    D3FC0NZ3R0 Member

    ...so non-"civillian" Humans CAN be chemically experimented on, I knew those crafty Mengele-wannabees would leave themselves a loop-hole.
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  12. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    A little OT... I love "informed consent", it is the basis of the libertarian view of the world. Unfortunately there are free market libertarians that think you can have informed consent without enforcement. Just like the government mandated info on your food packaging: "each 100g contains 1000 Kcals, 1 g of asbestos, and a lethal dose of arsenic" might make you buy a competitor's product. But the free market types hate that.
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  13. Quantumbeliever

    Quantumbeliever Banned Banned

    Except the one tiny issue with your assertion; the exemption clause which makes it legal for "law enforcement" to conduct such testing WITHOUT informed consent if such testing pertains to "riot control". Wow. Mick. I feel SO much better! The police state we now live under would NEVER abuse it's power and test things that might be harmful to the populace, would they? After all, they only use tear gas, rubber bullets and the like. They would NEVER abuse their authority, would they?
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2014
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  14. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    No - you didn't read it correctly.

    The exceptions in section (b) are still subject to informed consent as per section (c) - section (b) lists exceptions to the TOTAL prohibition in section (a)

    So it actually means:

    (a) SecDef cannot do any experiments at all.
    (b) EXCEPT - he can do experiments in these areas subject to section (c)
    (c) Informed consent is always required for all experiments.
    (and he also has to notify congress)

    sorry about that.
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  15. Quantumbeliever

    Quantumbeliever Banned Banned

    Mike, If you notice section ONLY speaks to the Secretary of Defense. It mentions NOTHING about law enforcement, period. Therefore, section C (informed consent) can not and does not apply to law enforcement. In addition, it does't have to! Section A only prohibits the Defense department. The exemption for law enforcement listed under section B for law enforcement shouldn't even be in this legislation.
    Even Mick confirms this in the original post saying and I quote: "Public Law 105-85 (U.S. Code Title 50, Chapter 32, § 1520a) came into effect in 1997. It makes it illegal for the military to test biological and chemical weapons on people,..."
    Nowhere do you see the word(s) "law enforcement". It ONLY speaks to the military and vis a vis the Defense department. The language is unambiguous and the law was clearly meant to keep the military from doing what they have done in the past; use innocent, uninformed human subjects for testing without informed consent. This has been time and time again in US history.
    The ONLY reason a "law enforcement" exemption was even IN the law was to paint a very clear picture to the police of our nation. That is, they needn't worry about this law. They can continue to do as they wish.
    It seems very clear to me what it says, but I had a lawyer friend read it as well and he confirmed what I clearly read and what is actually stated in the law.

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  16. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    There's just all the other laws they have to worry about. One law not applying to someone does not mean they can do whatever they wish.

    The law does not apply to you. Does that mean you can legally test drugs and chemical weapons on your neighbor without his agreement?
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  17. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    that is probably because US Code title 50 is U.S. Code: Title 50 - WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE, and the title of 50 U.S. Code Chapter 32 is CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE PROGRAM

    So none of it actually aplies to law enforcement.

    Look to other laws for what law enforcement can and cannot do.

    As you should be for wasting everyone's time (including your own) by not understanding what you are talking about.
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  18. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    So. Is now your claim that the many and varied police organizations of the United States of America are "tasked" with....the testing of biological and chemical weapons on unsuspecting civilians?

    If so, then please show some evidence of this. Merely "inferring" based on a mis-interpretation of this enacted law is NOT "proof"...of anything.
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  19. Trista Aquino

    Trista Aquino New Member

    Ok so is there a site where i can go to to view these reports that they were required to send to Congress and the House of Reps? Because ive seen a lot of chemtrails throughout the years and surely no one has ever knocked on my door or sent me a postcard regarding what or why, or mlore importantly, if i consent to, the aerial spraying i witness regularly.
    I am not here to argue, even when the idea and feasablity of someone actually informing every human subject (or human 'being' as i would prefer to be called) and get the permission of 100% of the entire population in the area is completely absurd. But i will keep an open mind, if you could just point the way to the records for the last decade, i will be more than happy to change my way of thinking.
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  20. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The fact that you have not been notified of any test probably indicates there is no test. It seems most likely you've been seeing contrails. There's a lot of misinformation about how contrails can't persist.
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  21. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Should I assume you don't live in farming country where crop dusting is taking place?
  22. Marin B

    Marin B Active Member

    Sounds like a question for your congress person. Go to his/her house.gov website and send an email asking if there have ever been any notices under 50 USC Sec 1520(a)(d), and if so, if they are available to the public.
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