1. CapnPegleg

    CapnPegleg Member

    In her opening statement, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's attorney, Judy Clarke, admitted his responsibility:


    So. Is this likely to shut up the CTs? Somehow, I think it will just be added to the narrative, ie, the lawyer is in on it.
     
  2. Qualiall

    Qualiall Member

    probably explains why people like Folks are not concerned with proving he is innocent--instead they go after One Boston fund--he is someone playing the role
     
  3. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    Of course not, his Lawyer is a member of the Bar Association, which isn't a strictly government organization but does have some weight of law and has been the subject of conspiracy theories in the past. That only puts Clark one degree of separation away from "them."


    Seriously, though, I think it'll just shift people from some versions of the theory to others. Not every truther claims the whole thing was fake, some claim Tsarnaev was recruited by the CIA's fake terrorist groups and armed with a fake bomb, with the whole event being faked around what the attacker believed was a real attack, and others claim it was a real attack, but that Tsarnaev was similarly a government patsy. Then there's the versions where Tsarnaev is actually a government agent carrying out the (either real or faked) attack...

    Those versions are all compatible with the defense - for the patsy versions he actually believes he's responsible but is a fall guy, and for the agent versions he's confessing to sell the lie, and when he goes to jail they'll just quietly stage his death at the hands of other inmates and spring him.

    And, like I said, the one version (fake/innocent) that is incompatible with the defense's statements, there's the argument that his lawyer is too close to "them" to be trusted and is just ensuring her client can't defend himself properly. That's a pretty far fetched line, but with less believing truthers shifting to theories more compatible with real world events, the ones left still clinging to this version will be the more extreme ones who are less pursuaded by reality. Similar effect to purging the moderates from a religion or political party, the ones left behind are the most obstinate hardliners.
     
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  4. Pigeonkak

    Pigeonkak Member

    If CT's are going to claim that the lawyer is trying to ruin Dzokhar Tsarnaev's defense, they would be ignoring efforts to strike his hospital statements from the court record. In addition, and we'll have to wait and see on this, if Tsarnaev is spared the death penalty it will probably be because the defense made a strong case on his behalf that he was a follower, under the zealous spell of his brother Tamerlan, and not an architect of the attack.

    The case that the lawyer is somehow complicit in a conspiracy, would be plainly illogical. But that's never stopped a CT.
     
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  5. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    This is why I posted to "The Wrong Colored Backpack" thread yesterday, after Clarke's statement.
    https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-wrong-colored-backpack.1574/page-7#post-145410


    While the myriad of wacky theories and allegations range from easy to impossible to disprove
    (not impossible because they're true, but in the same way that disproving alleged "unicorns" is impossible)
    since even Dzhokhar's own lawyer was unwilling to dispute that he placed a bomb in a backpack at the scene,
    only the most unhinged would continue to maintain the discredited "wrong backpack" claim...

    but yes, other conspiracy theories (like about The One Fund) will not fall as quickly and obviously...
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
  6. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    It would also be ignoring a lot of things, like how courts even work. This particular defense leaves a defense incompetence appeal wide open - "My lawyer sold me down the river!" is basically why we allow that as grounds for appeal.

    That's not a bad door to leave open for a client, assuming you're actually trying to get him a reduced charge or commuted sentence. But that's kind of a gaping hole to leave open in a vast multinational conspiracy.

    But, like you said, when has that stopped anyone? And, like I said, if less believing CTs drift to versions of the theory compatible with an admission of guilt, the ones still clinging to the innocence theory will probably be the least reasonable lost causes among them.
     
  7. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    So what is the defence's case?
    Is the plea not guilty, and to what charge exactly?
    If it's admitted he did it, what's the trial for? To just go over the exact sequence of events?
     
  8. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    I think Pigeonkak had that: Their case seems to be that he was involved, but did not share in his brother's extremism - that his brother did the planning and preparation, and coerced or possibly misled him into helping with the legwork. In short, that there was premeditation, but it wasn't the defendant's premeditation.

    Edit: Simpler way to put it, they're admitting to the act, but not to the charges. A similar case would be a person who admits he killed another in an accident, but was charged with first degree murder. He can plead not guilty to that charge without recanting his admission, because his actions don't meet all the criteria for first degree murder.

    It won't get a not guilty verdict (maybe in a less high profile case involving an individual attack and not a bombing, particularly if the brother were still alive to be charged, but not here), but it could get a lower charge or at least avoid the death penalty, and if they don't have him say it in his own words, it could leave open a later desperation appeal for incompetent defense, so when all else probably fails they can roll the dice and maybe get a do-over for a plea deal.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
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  9. Pigeonkak

    Pigeonkak Member

    Essentially, he pleaded 'not guilty' to all 30 charges against him. This is not incompatible with the defenses statement that they do not dispute the events of the Boston Bombing. They are arguing that he was not the orchestrator of the events, a pawn in the thrall (or fear) of his brother Tamerlan. Basically, because they have little chance of proving he simply didn't commit the crimes, they are copping to it and claiming mitigating circumstances for a lesser verdict and sentence. It's a last ditch defense to avoid the death penalty which could still be on the table.
     
  10. Pigeonkak

    Pigeonkak Member

    It is very possible that the jury could return a mixture of guilty/not guilty verdicts. I doubt that, but each of the 30 charges will be reviewed individually even though the plea was 'not guilty' to all of them.
     
  11. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    His attorney's job is not necessarily to get him off, or prove he didn't do it, the attorney's job is to ensure he receive a fair trial. At least that's what I heard Ron Kuby say when asked the same question. :)
     
  12. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    If you want to be entirely cynical about it, their job is to get the lowest possible penalty for their client. The lowest possible penalty is not always "none at all," there are a lot of cases where going for that will probably get your client the highest penalty, not the lowest. Sometimes getting the lowest penalty means a plea deal for a lower charge, sometimes it means a guilty plea and claiming mitigating circumstances, and sometimes it means fighting the degree of a charge rather than its facts.
     
  13. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    ...and with 3 words...merely 8 letters...500 YouTube videos with ominous, spooky music, died an ignominious death. :rolleyes:
     
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  14. ricl

    ricl New Member

    More like they joined Willie Coyote beyond the cliff edge and not looking down.
     
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  15. Miss VocalCord

    Miss VocalCord Active Member

    • Informative Informative x 2
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  16. Wry Catch

    Wry Catch New Member

    Isn't the trial supposed to discover the truth? Umm... people...nothing is "debunked" here...not yet. This "admission of guilt" tact by his lawyer does nothing to quell those looney CT's nor does it bring us any closer to knowing what exactly happened and why. On a core level this doesn't add up. If the kid did write a confession in the boat and it in fact said he can't wait to join his happy bro and collect his afterlife bliss- than why is he pleading not guilty? It would suit the middle eastern extremist profile to claim responsibility and die for their "cause". For them there's no honor or point to trying to weasel out of the death penalty. There are no beautiful virgins to be had while rotting away for the next 60 years in a prison cell!
     
  17. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    The thread isn't trying to debunk anything in particular.
    Saying pleading not guilty doesn't add up because extremists are supposed to want to die for their cause isn't really evidence for anything being fishy, you're just projecting your idea of how he should behave onto him.
     
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  18. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    if the claim is: "it was him".

    wouldn't it be YOUR job to debunk it? I think most of the "people" who are members of Metabunk believe her.

    and if you can debunk it, you might want to write him and offer to be his defense attorney...although he might turn you down when you tell him he should do the honorable thing and kill himself.
     
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  19. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Welcome to Metabunk! :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
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  20. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    There's two elements to a prosecutor's claim in a trial, both of which have separate criteria that need to be separately met to obtain a conviction:
    1. The act itself
    2. The degree of the charge

    Tsarnev's confession applies to the first part, but his plea applies to the second.

    Say you killed a man in a traffic accident in which you were ruled at fault. You do not deny any of that. However, the prosecutor then charges you with first degree murder instead of a lower manslaughter charge. You can plead not guilty to those charges while still not denying fault in the accident or the man's death, because even though the act itself took place, it does not meet the criteria for the charges filed for it.

    His lawyer's job (if you want to take the cynical viewpoint on lawyering) is to get him the lowest possible punishment. In criminal courts, "lowest possible" almost never means "none at all."
     
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  21. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    I don't think that is being "cynical" at all. It is exactly what every one of us would want our lawyer to do.
     
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  22. ColtCabana

    ColtCabana Active Member

    Nor should it; the trial isn't even over yet.
     
  23. Whitebeard

    Whitebeard Senior Member

    This is a good description of the role of the defense. This is mainly about UK law, and if it differs in any way in the US, the I'm sure some one will explain the differences. But I think the points about being the mouth piece of the accused and like are universal principles.
    http://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/ask-qc/102265/why-do-barristers-defend-guilty

     
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  24. CapnPegleg

    CapnPegleg Member

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  25. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    now your link says
     
  26. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    I know this is late but this is my view of a defence lawyer. This is based on experience but they are there to represent your view/plea in the best possible light. A lawyer will not knowingle lie and when told the truth will advise you on the best possible plea. Even if you said you did it confidentiality allows them to withold that information as normally they can't be cross examined.
     
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  27. derwoodii

    derwoodii Senior Member

    seems mom don't agree

    http://nypost.com/2015/04/09/boston-bombers-mom-us-will-pay-for-my-sons/

    and
    http://www.vocativ.com/world/russia/tsarnaevs-mother-speaks-out-my-son-is-the-best-of-the-best/

    and issue a threat of fashion

    http://www.newsoxy.com/world/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-us-will-pay-177493.html

    Tsarnaeva — who lived with her sons in Cambridge, Mass., before returning to Dagestan in 2012 after being arrested for shoplifting — had been virtually silent during the trial,notes Examiner. But in the days following Dzhokhar’s 2013 arrest, Tsarnaeva called the charges against the brothers “all lies and hypocrisy.
     
  28. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    http://time.com/3824265/boston-marathon-bombing-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-family/