Triangle object filmed / uap or cameraglitch ?

jarlrmai

Senior Member
Also to add : how can we rule out that it isnt CGI ?
Yeah it's interesting, the high res download is a video file with dimensions of 2560/1440 which is an odd resolution for a video device, also the web site and manual for the device used lists the sensor/video resolution at 1080p (30fps). The video also has an audio track (silent)

So something has happened to this video file before we can see it, the original footage is something the OP needs to provide at this point as I do not believe the linked file is the one straight from the device.

At the very least the re-encode to 1440p will have generated artefacts.
 

Daves!

Member
Yeah it's interesting, the high res download is a video file with dimensions of 2560/1440 which is an odd resolution for a video device, also the web site and manual for the device used lists the sensor/video resolution at 1080p (30fps). The video also has an audio track (silent)

So something has happened to this video file before we can see it, the original footage is something the OP needs to provide at this point as I do not believe the linked file is the one straight from the device.

At the very least the re-encode to 1440p will have generated artefacts.
Realy ? Where did you found out it was at 1440p ?
Im going forward your message right away to the site. They could obtain the original video.
 

Daves!

Member
Great work man !
I emailed them and they responded quickly saying they will ask for the original video right away.
They will send it to me, how can i forward the video to you ?
 

jarlrmai

Senior Member
Great work man !
I emailed them and they responded quickly saying they will ask for the original video right away.
They will send it to me, how can i forward the video to you ?
Put it on a service like google drive unaltered and link it here.
 
I think I have id'd the satellite that is visible at (video time) 20:54:13 moving right to left near HD104459

STARLINK-1478 (NORAD 45755)

http://nova.astrometry.net/user_images/5224313#annotated

This seems to show the time on the video at least is accurate to within 10-15 seconds
Agreed on the time, I did something similar with the plane that's visible at 20:54:50

5.jpg

KLM57V, got the track data from Flightaware. There'll be some inaccuracy due to data interpolation and my own quick calculations but it shows up where it should to within 5 secs or so.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
So, to summarize and clarify:

1. We don't think it's a camera glitch because the triangle tracks at a constant 2° per second across the night sky and is unaffected by sudden camera movements.

2. We think the triangle shows up only on IR because the three dots are quite dark, and light pollution in the visible spectrum would have prevented them from being seen in the visible spectrum.

3. The time and location of the night sky footage are confirmed via satellite and aircraft sightings.

4. The angular size of the object is ~0.2°.

Open questions:
a) was the video edited?
b) is the triangle solid or see-through?
c) is the triangle flying or orbiting, i.e. how high is it?
 
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Daves!

Member
I got an reply from the website where it was posted ( they realy are very helpfull and want also our help )

They wrote me the following ( translated from Dutch ) that the poster of the video wrote them this

" The last 3 minute video had the material taken directly from the camera. From Camera to PC. You can see this as the original recording.

Check out my camera's resolution here.

https://www.lunaoptics.com/g3b50.html

* LN-G3-B50 versatile digital binocular features a ground-breaking 2560x1440-pixel Quad-HD CMOS sensor......

• Sensor Type: CMOS, Quad-HD digital sensor.....

• Sensor Resolution: 2560x1440 pixels......

I grabbed my camera and I have a choice of 5 resolutions. I make recordings at the highest resolution, namely qhd2560*1440@p30
The lowest is HD1280*720@p30 "
 

jarlrmai

Senior Member
I got an reply from the website where it was posted ( they realy are very helpfull and want also our help )

They wrote me the following ( translated from Dutch ) that the poster of the video wrote them this

" The last 3 minute video had the material taken directly from the camera. From Camera to PC. You can see this as the original recording.

Check out my camera's resolution here.

https://www.lunaoptics.com/g3b50.html

* LN-G3-B50 versatile digital binocular features a ground-breaking 2560x1440-pixel Quad-HD CMOS sensor......

• Sensor Type: CMOS, Quad-HD digital sensor.....

• Sensor Resolution: 2560x1440 pixels......

I grabbed my camera and I have a choice of 5 resolutions. I make recordings at the highest resolution, namely qhd2560*1440@p30
The lowest is HD1280*720@p30 "

Cool so it's a different model, thanks
 

Daves!

Member
So, to summarize and clarify:

1. We don't think it's a camera glitch because the triangle tracks at a constant 2° per second across the night sky and is unaffected by sudden camera movements.

2. We think the triangle shows up only on IR because the three dots are quite dark, and light pollution in the visible spectrum would have prevented them from being seen in the visible spectrum.

3. The time and location of the night sky footage are confirmed via satellite and aircraft sightings.

4. The angular size of the object is ~0.2°.

Open questions:
a) was the video edited?
b) is the triangle solid or see-through?
c) is the triangle flying or orbiting, i.e. how high is it?
A.) There is no indication that its edited the 1440p resolution seems to be normal and users can switch the resolutions. The people at ufomeldpunt.nl also stated that on their twitter


Source: https://twitter.com/ufomeldpunt/status/1446476776750960640?t=RCOn9V8UlizRfXV8rDkVpQ&s=19


They are out of answers and are open for suggestions and help.

B.) Post#2 wrote that it looked like its see-through
C.) unknown

There is a suggestion about it being birds .. but at that speed and pace... I dont know about that.

3 possible things i think : drones, lasers, a real uap..
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
B.) Post#2 wrote that it looked like its see-through
Could you please quote that for me?


birds .. but at that speed
The speed is slower if the birds are lower.
ywdLODw.png
For it to be ground-based lasers, they'd need to be hitting a solid object up there.

What is a "real UAP"?
All we see is 3 dots in the dark, we can't identify anything from that.
Hence the attempts to find a known object travelling on this path.
 
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jarlrmai

Senior Member
2 suggestions, compare angular size to see if unlisted high altitude aircraft is a possibility. Everything from biz jet to military transport size is a possibility.

Unlisted satellites triad, extrapolate an orbit and see if it passes over again when expected by finding a reference star like Markab. Could be a new unlisted satellite formation. As previously mentioned reaching out to the satellite tracking community is probably needed at this point.
 

Daves!

Member
Could you please quote that for me?



The speed is slower if the birds are lower.
ywdLODw.png
For it to be ground-based lasers, they'd need to be hitting a solid object up there.

What is a "real UAP"?
All we see is 3 dots in the dark, we can't identify anything from that.
Hence the attempts to find a known object travelling on this path.
It was post #5 quote : "Too dim to be lights I think. It goes by a couple of 5th, 6th magnitude stars and appears to be of comparable brightness. It also appears like the three dots are moving a little with respect to each other so probably not one solid object."
 

Daves!

Member
Also the plane in the video could be this one :
Ryanair FR714 but correct me if im wrong
 

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Mendel

Senior Member.
. It also appears like the three dots are moving a little with respect to each other so probably not one solid object.
How certain are we of this? Can anyone make a zoomed-in version stabilized on the triangle (I know @Mick West is handy with these)?

If the triangle is not stable, this could be because of
a) atmospheric disturbance
b) object changing aspect (e.g. aircraft banking/pitching up or down, or simply perspective as the object moves away)
c) 3 separate objects not in orbit

I don't expect satellites to maneuver in a discernible way that is not in unison.
Any changes to the triangle would need to be atmospheric or perspective if it is satellites.

-----

Is the fading of the triangle related to it entering Earth's shadow, and can we deduce an approximate height from that?
 
What altitude was that at? If it was flying low-ish, a high-altitude aircraft would be expected to appear dimmer. If it was military, it may not be listed on a public flight tracker.
~ 15500 ft, climbing out of Amsterdam. 11.6 km south.
It was post #5 quote : "Too dim to be lights I think. It goes by a couple of 5th, 6th magnitude stars and appears to be of comparable brightness. It also appears like the three dots are moving a little with respect to each other so probably not one solid object."
Just to be clear, that's based on the low quality Youtube video.
Also the plane in the video could be this one :
Ryanair FR714 but correct me if im wrong
You're two hours late there. 2054 local = 1854 UTC.
 
The original videolink is in the twitter message
Thanks for the link. I think I'm still seeing some movement but that might also be artifacts or illusion/interpretation on my part. Might be more reasonable to disregard what I said at first. Maybe somebody else can do some analaysis on the vid and come to a more definite answer.

--

One thing we should keep in mind when we look for possible candidates at higher altitudes is that the speed it needs to be moving at becomes very fast very soon for it to be at the positions in the sky at which we observe it in the video. This for example is what it looks like under the assumption it's in level flight at 35,000 ft.

6.jpg

It's got 15 seconds to get from the first to the last pin. That means it's barreling along at 1,500 kts.
 

Daves!

Member
The Royal Dutch Airforce has the F-35 Stealth but its topspeed is 1,850 miles per hour or Mach 1.82.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
One thing we should keep in mind when we look for possible candidates at higher altitudes is that the speed it needs to be moving at becomes very fast very soon for it to be at the positions in the sky at which we observe it in the video.
Since orbital speed depends on the altitude alone (higher means slower), can you determine a specific orbit from these data (assuming the triangle is in space)?
 
We have some rough estimates for the angular velocity, about 2° per second or 0.03 - 0.04 rad/s? Linear velocity is simply that times a radius, e.g. for an object 300 km away

0.03/s * 300 km = 6 km/s

That's only the lower boundary though as it assumes the object circles the observer. Which it most likely doesn't, and which can be immediately ruled out for satellites as they move in straight lines. So there needs to be an additional component that accounts for movement towards or away from the observer. How much exactly I couldn't say.
 

oscaralexander

New Member
Hi there, Alex chiming in, co-founder of UFO Meldpunt Nederland, the Dutch UFO reporting platform this footage was submitted to. I am in direct contact with the witness, so if any further questions arise, I'd be happy to relay them.

On Friday EOD, we forwarded this footage and details to our contact at the Dutch air force radar staff. They usually report back within 48 hours with a list of all aircraft (civ and mil) in that airspace that correspond with the time and heading. When I hear back, I'll post an update here.

The witness is not new to sky watching through his NV binoculars and has seen satellites many times before, but told us he struggled to keep up with this object due to its high speed. Although it had the magnitude of a satellite, it was moving much faster than any satellite he'd ever seen. I've also looked into satellite triplets, like the Chinese Yaogan-31 A/B/C espionage satellites, but they move in a line (with 100m between them), not in a triangle. I was unable to find if any triplets exist that orbit in a triangle formation, but haven't looked extensively. So, due to speed and formation, I'm ruling out satellites for now.

On Twitter, Engaging the Phenomenon argued that the object could be birds. I was dismissive at first due to the tight grouping and consistency of the formation, but it does make sense. I'll explain why.

Why birds: The witness mentioned he recorded this at 6x zoom and that the triangle only showed up when he switched to IR mode. This is interesting, because obviously at 6x zoom any object close to the camera, like birds, would appear to move very fast due to the narrow FOV. Now birds don't usually carry lights around, but his particular NV device has an IR illuminator with a 654yd (±600m) range, and anything flying within that range, like birds, would reflect the IR light and light up in the NV binoculars. Add to this that the beginning of October is when birds start migrating south to hibernate, and you're looking at a very plausible explanation.

Why not birds: What bothers me, however, is the extremely tight and consistent grouping throughout the video. It's a perfect, equilateral triangle from start to end. Also, these birds are moving west, not south (hibernation). I've also never seen these flights with just a single bird in each 'leg', which is not to say it never happens.

Investigate: Is there a frame in the video where the formation blocks out a star that it's passing in front of? This would indicate whether we're looking at a solid object or a formation of 3 separate objects.

To be continued...
 
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Mendel

Senior Member.
That all seems super fast for sat orbits from what I gather, quicker than a circular orbit in LEO.
Not really.
Article:
SmartSelect_20211011-143126_Samsung Internet.jpg

I compared some shots from the video with objects in the sky to determine some bearings,

Code:
Time Azim Elev
20:53:51 122.75 40.30
20:53:57 139.50 35.67
20:54:01 147.75 32.75
20:54:06 158.00 28.50
BUT for a 40° elevation, the actual height is only 64% of the range, plus curvature (~7 km for 300km distance, but it grows faster from there).
 

Daves!

Member
Guys the video and all the information which has been gathered has been forwarded to the Royal Dutch Airforce Radar staff by the staff of ufomeldpunt.nl im in close contact with them and will help them with all new information from here

Alex from the Dutch ufomeldpunt.nl made a post on reddit. So any information or help i can forward to him is appreciated any suggestions too.

And let me say how proud i am on all of you and your help !

See ;

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/q3yueu/triangle_ufo_filmed_with_night_vision_utrecht_the/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
 

oscaralexander

New Member
Our contact from the air force reported back with the following plot. This is the only craft that appeared on radar that matched the heading of our UAP at that time.

WUK_07102021_2055LT.JPG

This would be Wizz Air flight W65116 (Airbus A320-232), from Kaunas (Lithuania) to London. I'm eliminating this option for two reasons:
  1. Lights: Our UAP lacks (anti-collision) strobe lights which the Wizz Air flight would have. I have no clue what the 3 lights would represent other than landing lights, but at 38.428 ft (cruising altitude) it would not have its landing lights on.
  2. Time: The Wizz Air flight passed over Utrecht at 20:57 (local time) but our UAP passed at 20:53. Granted, the Wizz Air flight does cross the witness' location almost exactly, so will contact the witness to verify the accuracy of his NV's internal clock.
Update: Contacted the witness regarding NV clock calibration. He had a look and it's 1:1 with his GPS clock, effectively eliminating the Wizz Air flight.
 
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Mendel

Senior Member.
The ISS moves at 7.66 km/s at a height of 408 km.
408 km - 13 km curvature drop = 395 km visible height
395 km / sin(40.3°) = ~610 km range
7.66 km/s / 610 km = 0.0126 rad/s = 0.72⁰/s

If the triangle is in orbit, it's much lower than the ISS.

P.S.:
For a circular Earth orbit,
3.986×10¹⁴=v²*r=v²×(6.378+h)×1000
where h is the height in km and v is the velocity in m/s
 
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Daves!

Member
Are there any mods online ? The staff of ufomelpunt.nl made a post over here about the video but their account was made yesterday, is there any way to speed up the process ? I got an email from them to ask this . They seem to have some questions for us and have some more information.
They also have direct contact with the witness.
Thats the best route if we have some info or questions to ask them directly.

The account name is oscaralexander.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Are there any mods online ? The staff of ufomelpunt.nl made a post over here about the video but their account was made yesterday, is there any way to speed up the process ? I got an email from them to ask this . They seem to have some questions for us and have some more information.
They also have direct contact with the witness.
Thats the best route if we have some info or questions to ask them directly.

The account name is oscaralexander.
you can always see if there is staff online, on the "latest activity" page or the Home Page.

But for stuff like this you should private message Mick directly, so he will know to log on and look at it. You can also "add" Landru to the conversation so Landru will see it too.

click the "M" at top of page

1633962235502.png
 

Daves!

Member
you can always see if there is staff online, on the "latest activity" page or the Home Page.

But for stuff like this you should private message Mick directly, so he will know to log on and look at it. You can also "add" Landru to the conversation so Landru will see it too.

click the "M" at top of page

1633962235502.png
Thanks !
 
Not really.
Article:
SmartSelect_20211011-143126_Samsung Internet.jpg


BUT for a 40° elevation, the actual height is only 64% of the range, plus curvature (~7 km for 300km distance, but it grows faster from there).
But that's only the lowest possible speed assuming it moves perpendicular to the observer. When I apply it to that hypothetical plane at 35,000 ft from further above I get a speed of around 950 kts, but the traced path shows it's closer to 1,500 kts. So that's only 2/3 of the actual speed.
 
The Royal Dutch Airforce has the F-35 Stealth but its topspeed is 1,850 miles per hour or Mach 1.82.
Think I missed this reply yesterday. Yeah I think it would all but rule out a conventional (or even high performance military) high altitude plane. That speed is absurdly high.
 

oscaralexander

New Member
Hi all, my earlier two posts (#68 and #72) were only just approved by the mods and will provide some additional details. Thanks to all for helping solve this one with such tenacity.
 

Daves!

Member
Hi all, my earlier two posts (#68 and #72) were only just approved by the mods and will provide some additional details. Thanks to all for helping solve this one with such tenacity.
Welcome and we are glad to help !
The airforce should be informed of the work we found out and that the time of their radar Doesnt match with the 1:1 gps clock of the witness.
Im astonished that they arent looking at the time.
 
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