Debunked: National Weather Service (NOAA) ordering ammo

[Mick West]

This solicitation triggered a brief conspiracy theory:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...d9a6dfb22bca4a19150cb&tab=core&tabmode=list&=

13--Ammunition and Shooting Targets

Solicitation Number: DG-1330-12-RQ-1028
Agency: Department of Commerce
Office: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)

Location: National Weather Service

[...]
The DOC NOAA National Weather Service - Western Acquisition Division ? Boulder requires the following items, Purchase Description Determined by Line Item, to the following:
LI 001, 16,000 rounds of ammunition for semiautomatic pistols to be factory-loaded .40 S&W caliber, 180-grain jacketed hollow point (JHP). No reloads may be used with these weapons. All service furnished ammunition for issued firearms will be U.S. factory production.
?Inside Delivery? to locations below:
NED:
8,000 rounds to: Ross Lane DOC, NOAA, NMFS, OLE, NED 130 Oak Street, Suite 5, Ellsworth, ME, 04605
8,000 rounds to: Troy Audyatis, DOC, NOAA, NMFS, OLE, NED 53 North 6th Street, Room 214 New Bedford, MA, 02740.,
[...]

It looks at first glance like the national weather service is ordering ammunition and targets. What would they need it for? Is the illuminati arming the weathermen so they can continue to cover up a secret geoengineering plot? Are weathermen no longer needed, so they are being conscripted into secret kill squads?

Nothing that exciting. If you look at where the ammo is actually going (i.e. the addresses), you see they all say: DOC, NOAA, NMFS, OLE, NED.

NMFS, OLE, NED is the National Marine Fishery Service, Office of Law Enforcement, North East Division. Basically the fishery police - the people who enforce fishing regulations and quotas. These guys:
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/about/employment.html

It's a division of the NOAA, which is a division of the Department of Commerce (DOC). Being a fairly large OLE they obviously have a use for ammunition and targets for their firearms training and practice.

 

[Mick West]

Good detailed explanation here:

http://www.businessinsider.com/this...dly-ordered-46000-rounds-of-ammunition-2012-8

Scott Smullen, the Deputy Director of NOAA Communications & External Affairs emailed me saying the announcement is a mistake and is apparently being corrected at the time of this writing.From Scott's email:

Due to a clerical error in the federal business vendor process, a solicitation for ammunition and targets for the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement mistakenly identified NOAA's National Weather Service as the requesting office. The error is being fixed and will soon appear correctly in the electronic federal bidding system. The ammunition is standard issue for many law enforcement agencies and it will be used by 63 NOAA enforcement personnel in their firearms qualifications and training.
​

Last night's post mentions that the "NOAA overseas the National Marine Fisheries Service, which is responsible for all U.S. marine resources. The acquisition mentions this agency, NMFS and the OLE — Office of law Enforcement."

The reason for the number of rounds is explained in a follow up question:

Agents and officers are required to have 200 rounds in his or her duty bag, and twice-a-year firearm qualification and training calls for agents to use another 500-600 rounds. In addition, firearms instructors with more than one pistol may need more rounds in a year. In 2011, the guidance was that each agent and officer would need 700 rounds per year to meet these requirements.

​

 

[scombrid]

[TABLE="class: tableRed"]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="width: 70%"]An Infowars article declaring the NWS was buying ammo was pasted to a surfing forum that I read. It was clear before I followed the links within the infowars article that the order was for NOAA fisheries because the infowars article stated that the order was: ""to be delivered to locations in Ellsworth, Maine, and New Bedford, Mass. A further 6,000 rounds of S&W JHP will be sent to Wall, New Jersey, with another 24,000 rounds of the same bullets heading to the weather station in St. Petersburg, Florida"". There aren't NWS offices in those locations. There are NMFS offices there. So I followed the links in the Infowars article and got:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


https://marketplace.fedbid.com/fbweb/fbobuyDetails.do?token=%3D%3DwBKxmaVGYR92ezk3E3ONEvQAAAAAHeAAgAgTFCGg%2FFzzqQbJAAyVXBA0Or

General Buy Information

385641_02

DG-1330-12-RQ-1028

13 -- Ammunition and Explosives

1305 -- Ammunition, through 30mm

332992 -- Small Arms Ammunition Manufacturing

Yes

No

Small Business

DOC NOAA-National Marine Fisheries Service

08/21/2012

12:00 ET

45 Day(s) - Required (No. of calendar days after receipt of order (ARO) by which Buyer requires Seller to deliver)

increased the amount of shooting targets. Please Note: Repost Reason is provided as a courtesy only. Sellers are responsible for reviewing and complying with all Buy Specifications regardless of Repost Reason.

[TH="align: left"]Buy #: [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]Solicitation #: [/TH]

[TH="width: 20%, align: left"]Buy Description : [/TH]
[TD="width: 80%"]Ammunition and Shooting Targets [/TD]

[TH="align: left"]Category : [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]Sub Category : [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]NAICS : [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]FedBizOpps Solicitation : [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]Recovery Act : [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]Set-Aside Requirement : [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]Buyer : [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]End Date : [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]End Time : [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]Delivery Days : [/TH]

[TH="align: left"]Repost Reason : [/TH]

Line Item(s)
[TABLE="class: tableRed"]
[TR]
[TH="width: 10%, align: left"]Item No . [/TH]
[TH="width: 70%, align: left"]Description [/TH]
[TH="width: 10%, align: left"]Qty [/TH]
[TH="width: 10%, align: left"]Unit [/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="width: 10%"]001 [/TD]
[TD="width: 70%"]16,000 rounds of ammunition for semiautomatic pistols to be factory-loaded .40 S&W caliber, 180-grain jacketed hollow point (JHP). No reloads may be used with these weapons. All service furnished ammunition for issued firearms will be U.S. factory production. "Inside Delivery" to locations below: NED: 8,000 rounds to: Ross Lane DOC, NOAA, NMFS, OLE, NED 130 Oak Street, Suite 5, Ellsworth, ME, 04605 8,000 rounds to: Troy Audyatis, DOC, NOAA, NMFS, OLE, NED 53 North 6th Street, Room 214 New Bedford, MA, 02740. [/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]16 [/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Cases [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="width: 10%"]002 [/TD]
[TD="width: 70%"]24,000 rounds of ammunition for semiautomatic pistols to be factory-loaded .40 S&W caliber, 180-grain jacketed hollow point (JHP). No reloads may be used with these weapons. All service furnished ammunition for issued firearms will be U.S. factory production. "Inside Delivery" to locations below: 24,000 rounds to: Jeff Radonski, A/DSAC DOC, NOAA, NMFS, OLE, SED 263 13th Avenue South, Suite 109, St. Petersburg, FL, 33701. [/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]24 [/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Cases [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="width: 10%"]003 [/TD]
[TD="width: 70%"]6,000 rounds of frangible, 125-grain CFRHT .40 caliber. No reloads may be used with these weapons. All service furnished ammunition for issued firearms will be U.S. factory production. "Inside Delivery" to locations below: 6,000 rounds to: James Cassin DOC, NOAA, NMFS, OLE, NED 3350 Highway 138, Suite 218, Wall, NJ, 07719 [/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]6 [/TD]
[TD="width: 10%"]Cases [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="width: 10%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 70%"]

​

​

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[Met Watch]

Thanks for the information, Mick! I appreciate your input.

 

[Charlie Primero]

Back in the 90's I looked for a job in Federal law enforcement. I discovered that virtually every Federal agency has a unit of armed men, even agencies like EPA, Social Security, and HUD you wouldn't expect.

 

[Mick West]

Back in the 90's I looked for a job in Federal law enforcement. I discovered that virtually every Federal agency has a unit of armed men, even agencies like EPA, Social Security, and HUD you wouldn't expect.

Wouldn't a lot of those just be security? Even hospitals have a "unit of armed men". HUD has OSEP.

 

[Charlie Primero]

Wouldn't a lot of those just be security?

No. Most of them are some kind of "Criminal Investigation Division" which investigates criminal fraud (both internal & external) and threats against employees. Some are security guard type positions.

My sister attended the Federal Law Enforcement Training Academy in Georgia. She was amazed at all the weird agencies attending classes there.

 

[Unregistered]

the point is -- why hollow point?

 

[Mick West]

Because that's what LEOs use. Good stopping power, and low over-penetration. The wisdom of this is somewhat debatable, but that's still what they use.

 

[Gunguy45]

Actually it's not debatable at all when you are the one who's life is in danger or if you are charged with protecting the lives and properties of others. If you are in that position...your purpose is to stop the threat as quickly as possible without needlessly endangering others. Modern hollow point ammunition has been proven to do this more effectively than older FMJ or lead round nose bullets. The only time you shoot in the above situations is if you or another persons life is in danger or if severe bodily harm could occur. There are also situations such as someone stealing machine guns or explosives (for instance) in which lethal force is allowed. Someone running off with stolen groceries is NOT a valid reason.

Warfare and LE/personal protection are 2 different animals.

 

[Mick West]

I mean debatable in that people debate and have different opinions as to the wisdom of equipping cops with HP. I don't think people debate the increased stopping power.

 

[Gunguy45]

Ok...I see what you mean. Of course people think having cars that go more than the speed limit is debatable as well.

I look at it as the right tool for the job to achieve the desired outcome.

 

[Charlie Primero]

Good stopping power, and low over-penetration. The wisdom of this is somewhat debatable, but that's still what they use.

There is not much debate about whether cops should use hollow point ammunition.

Check out the Box of Truth to see how various bullets respond to building materials, cars, and other barriers... http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

In self-defense situations the goal is maximum fast incapacitation with minimum energy expenditure and minimum danger to others. Hollow points do that better.

Non-Hollow Point ammunition is only preferred when attempting to shoot into cars or tear through a barrier. Even then, the advantage to civilian law enforcers or private individuals is usually not worth the trouble of swapping magazines.

 

[Unregistered]

Here for you debunkers that think you know who is getting the ammunitions that where ordered "by the NOAA" for the "National Weahter Service". This is stated clearly in the official documents from the source of the subject at hand.

OFFICIAL HEADING OF THE SOLICITATION ORDER:

13--Ammunition and Shooting Targets
Solicitation Number: DG-1330-12-RQ-1028
Agency: Department of Commerce
Office: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
Location: National Weather Service


You can find the original solicitation order at the source here:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...94550dd10f4aae476069e17eb85&tab=core&_cview=1

 

[Mick West]

Here for you debunkers that think you know who is getting the ammunitions that where ordered "by the NOAA" for the "National Weahter Service". This is stated clearly in the official documents from the source of the subject at hand.

OFFICIAL HEADING OF THE SOLICITATION ORDER:

13--Ammunition and Shooting Targets
Solicitation Number: DG-1330-12-RQ-1028
Agency: Department of Commerce
Office: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
Location: National Weather Service


You can find the original solicitation order at the source here:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...94550dd10f4aae476069e17eb85&tab=core&_cview=1

Your link says exactly what I'm saying, that the ammo goes to: NMFS, OLE - the National Marine Fishery Service, Office of Law Enforcement. ​i.e. the fishing cops.

 

[Jay Reynolds]

I see it even lists the names of the NMFS people receiving the ammunition. If infowars really wanted to know, they could send someone over to ask these people personally.

But that would take the adrenaline out of the story. CT's gotta have that daily fix.

 

[scombrid]

Here for you debunkers that think you know who is getting the ammunitions that where ordered "by the NOAA" for the "National Weahter Service". This is stated clearly in the official documents from the source of the subject at hand.

OFFICIAL HEADING OF THE SOLICITATION ORDER:

13--Ammunition and Shooting Targets
Solicitation Number: DG-1330-12-RQ-1028
Agency: Department of Commerce
Office: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
Location: National Weather Service


You can find the original solicitation order at the source here:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...94550dd10f4aae476069e17eb85&tab=core&_cview=1

That's the heading. What does the remainder of the order say? It's been covered already in this thread.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

Problem 1: They say that hollow point ammunition is to be used for target practice. Well why would they use more expensive ammunition for target practice? Solid bullets will perform the same for target practice.

Problem 2: Tons of federal agencies are ordering unprecedented amounts of ammunition. Why so much and why now?

 

[Gunguy45]

SD....did you read through the comments? I'm not going to waste my time or yours repeating them.

There was a similar discussion in my local papers opinions page concerning the SSA purchase. It worked out to 590 rds per Investigator per year. They are required to qualify 4 times per year with duty ammo as well as what they carry and practice with. I could go through that in one day when I shot regularly.

You aren't a shooter I'll hazard to guess?

Btw...they aren't ridiculous amounts...they are multi-year contracts with a maximum quantity. They aren't that different from prior years...according to my info...if you have different..please provide it.

 

[MikeC]

Problem 1: They say that hollow point ammunition is to be used for target practice. Well why would they use more expensive ammunition for target practice? Solid bullets will perform the same for target practice.

Practice as you intend to perform. Also means you do not have to worry about stock keeping different types of amunition.

Problem 2: Tons of federal agencies are ordering unprecedented amounts of ammunition. Why so much and why now?

Do you have any evidence that these quantities aer "unprecendented"? Or are we to take your word for it? (

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

You aren't a shooter I'll hazard to guess?

You should always treat a gun as loaded, and with safety in mind, guessing whether a stranger may be armed or not is what would be hazardous. You should assume all guns are loaded until checked, and assume all strangers are armed until checked.

Btw...they aren't ridiculous amounts...they are multi-year contracts with a maximum quantity. They aren't that different from prior years...according to my info...if you have different..please provide it.

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=10855
As many as 450 million rounds of .40-caliber ammunition are being produced for U.S. government agencies by ATK of Minnesota. The order comes under an indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement for HST bullets. The DHS is also planning to purchase a further 750 million rounds of different types of ammo in a separate solicitation that also expires on August 20, including 357 mag rounds that are able to penetrate walls.

 

[Gunguy45]

As I said...you aren't a shooter (at least not a US shooter...as those aren't the common rules), but thanks for proving my point about the contract. Open ended delivery and quantity.

Btw.... .22 rimfire will penetrate walls. Whats your point?

And please...no more AJ links....it's a waste of electrons.

Btw again....where exactly do you see .357 Mag? Everything I've seen shows .357 Sig. Far to many links in the websites to try and figure out WTH you are talking about.


Sorry...I did see a .357 Mag listing. Of course I also saw a .380 Auto line item, a 7.62 x 39, 38 Spl and several others that are rarely used (if at all) by LE. Oh..perhaps they are for familiarization and training?

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

You did not define "shooter". Are you referring to competition shooting? I define "shooter" as someone who shoots.

That is a new contract, therefore proving my point. unprecedented. I never claimed that these were going to be one-time purchases. I would be curious to see how much is being used, and how much is being stockpiled.

EDIT: Safety should always be the #1 rule when it has anything to do with guns.

 

[George B]

You should always treat a gun as loaded, and with safety in mind, guessing whether a stranger may be armed or not is what would be hazardous. You should assume all guns are loaded until checked, and assume all strangers are armed until checked.


http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=10855
As many as 450 million rounds of .40-caliber ammunition are being produced for U.S. government agencies by ATK of Minnesota. The order comes under an indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement for HST bullets. The DHS is also planning to purchase a further 750 million rounds of different types of ammo in a separate solicitation that also expires on August 20, including 357 mag rounds that are able to penetrate walls.

750 + 450 million rounds. . . Hmmmm. . . that is about 3 rounds for each person in the US . . . why so much??. . . I understand practice but seems like overkill (pun intended). . .

 

[Gunguy45]

Lord....discussion with you seems just a waste of time. I never said competitive shooter. I define a shooter as someone who has a bit of common sense and likes to shoot. Many hunters are not "shooters" IMO. I was never a competitive shooter...but I would easily go thru 1000 rd per weekend when I had the time.

Why is it unprecedented? What were prior contracts like?

As I said...you aren't a shooter are you? Please tell me what guns you own and when you were last at a range? The fact you don't know the common rules tells me much.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

I bet the debunkers say that the amounts are open ended... so there is no way to prove actual amount.. of course unless we check their stockpile.
By the way, as someone who carries a gun, I practice shooting with regular bullets, but always load my weapon with hollow points when carrying. There is a big price difference and there is no noticeable difference in how the bullet behaves in regards to accuracy.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

As I said...you aren't a shooter are you? Please tell me what guns you own and when you were last at a range? The fact you don't know the common rules tells me much.

You assume waaaay too much dude. I'm not going to get into a contest with you. Just know I am well armed and shoot often, and that safety IS common sense.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

Why is it unprecedented? What were prior contracts like?

http://www.prepperpodcast.com/history-dhs-ammunition-purchases/#axzz24qR1asEJ

 

[Gunguy45]

But yet you don't know the basic safety rules (although you did mostly get #1)

1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

But yet you don't know the basic safety rules (although you did mostly get #1)

1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

I know the basic safety rules, I just did not elaborate on them because it was off-topic. I only commented on them because you made an accusation. Now if you are quite done pointing fingers, then perhaps you care to comment on the unprecedented amount of ammunition being ordered? I even gave you a chart. It is increasing as you can see. Each time you order more ammunition than you have IN ANY previous year, you have ordered an UNPRECEDENTED amount... by definition. So, please either acknowledge that I am correct, or give an opposing opinion based on fact... but don't ignore this or change the subject please. It is not helping the cause here.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

There is not much debate about whether cops should use hollow point ammunition.

Check out the Box of Truth to see how various bullets respond to building materials, cars, and other barriers... http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

In self-defense situations the goal is maximum fast incapacitation with minimum energy expenditure and minimum danger to others. Hollow points do that better.

Non-Hollow Point ammunition is only preferred when attempting to shoot into cars or tear through a barrier. Even then, the advantage to civilian law enforcers or private individuals is usually not worth the trouble of swapping magazines.

I have hollow point rounds in my .45 that are used by the FBI. My dad got them from one of his Law Enforcement friends. They will penetrate a car door, a thick winter jacket, and wont "clog" up and they still expand once they hit water or flesh.

 

[solrey]

SD, the chart from that prepper site shows ammunition purchases for just the DHS, not for any non-DHS agencies, going back to when the DHS was established in 2002. The DHS was created in order to combine 22 security/intelligence related agencies under one department. All of those departments already had their own ammunition and ammunition contracts before they came under the DHS umbrella, which from then on has been responsible for fulfilling ammunition contracts. The way that prepper site portrays it is extremely misleading. There was an emergency order to cover an 18,000,000 round shortfall in 2009 but why should that be suspicious for a relatively new fed department responsible for 22 different agencies who's ammunition contracts were likely coming up for renewal at the time?

Here's some info from a firearms instructor who has actually trained personnel from a number of fed departments. He confirms that they use expensive hollow points for practice/training.

The Government is Ordering Millions of Bullets…Should I Be Worried?

I've trained agents in the FBI, ATF, DEA, Secret Service, and Border Patrol in my job as a firearms instructor. I've also witnessed hundreds of thousands of rounds fired by the various Federal Agencies that rent my police range and in training classes that I've attended. This gives me a little bit of an inside track on their procedures.

Unlike most citizens and the majority of local law enforcement agencies, most Federal agencies do not use cheap (full metal jacket) training ammunition. They shoot very expensive (around $1 per round) hollowpoint bullets during all their training sessions. I personally believe that this practice is wasteful, as functionally identical training rounds can be purchased for roughly 1/3 of the price of a premium hollowpoint round. Most agencies shoot the cheaper bullets in training and carry the more expensive bullets for duty use. Not so with the Feds. They practice with the same hollowpoints they carry on duty.

I have solid experience with a variety of weapons as well. I have sniper level accuracy with a rifle and I used to have a concealed carry permit and pack a hog leg that'd make a grown man mess his drawers if he ever found himself in the unfortunate position of staring down the business end of that thing.

SMITH & WESSON MODEL 25 CLASSIC .45 LONG COLT

 

[Gunguy45]

And of course one thing these sites always neglect to mention is that these are multi-year no minimum purchase contracts. Only a few of the smaller ones are one time fixed quantity contracts. For the real truth they would need to provide actual delivery documents. Just because company A has a contract with company B to supply a max quantity of widgets.....does not mean they have to buy that quantity.

I especially like the fact that many of the listed "orders" are not orders at all.....they are solicitations or pre-solicitations or even just a contract to an outside company to find sources for certain types of ammunition.

I'm no Gov contract specialist....but I also find it odd that standard "forms" for orders or solicitations have such widely varying identification numbers as well. Some are written by the same person for the same agency but have different numbering styles. Others are written by someone in the same office for the same agency and have a completely different method of numbering. I mean seriously.....a solicitation number of "0088"?

As solrey said....though many LE agencies and the common shooter will use cheaper FMJ or lead bullets in practice and training (heck...I've read of some departments that actually have their own reloading machines) Feds do not. It was the same in the military, of course for the regular grunt...that meant FMJ. The Seals that I was acquainted with were quite clear that they did all live fire training with the actual ammunition they would carry in combat or on a mission. Believe me...Seals did not always use regular FMJ military issue.

Look at the orders for the FLETC alone....that's a training center for the entire countries LE agencies (down to the local and tribal level if they can afford it) as well as some international agencies. Over the time frame given they only "ordered" around 200M rounds for all their facilities. I don't really see that as excessive at all....even if all of them were actually delivered (see paragraph 1 above).

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

Question not answered. Nice dodge attempt.
Ammunition ordering goes up every year. Yes or no you tricksters.

 

[Gunguy45]

Seems like solrey answered it quite clearly.....all the data was from the initial creation of DHS. If they continue to put out contracts for specific quantities (no actual delivery info...so I'll use contracted amounts from now on), won't the number continue to climb over time?

Looking at the first chart in your link...it would appear to me that the actual contracted amounts have been decreasing for about the last year...just as they did after a large contracted amount between 2008-2009.

Without information from all the prior years contracted amounts from all the individual agencies now in the DHS umbrella....the numbers are not much use.

I think the writer of that article needs help with his charts and graphs as well as a class on statistics?


So...to answer your question of do the contracted amounts go up each year....per your own reference....no. Does the total continue to climb...yes...just like miles on an odometer.

If someone can actually dig up "quantities delivered"....then we might have something to discuss.

 

[scombrid]

Ammunition ordering goes up every year. Yes or no you tricksters.

No.

The graph you attempted to post in this thread is cumulative over time. If they order a single round next year that graph goes up.

Another graph on the site you link indicates that 2008 was the year with the largest order at 650 million or so for the year. 2011 orders also exceeded 2012. So, no ordering does not go up every year. Ordering has varied quite a bit but without much in the way of a trend since 2008.

Problem 1: They say that hollow point ammunition is to be used for target practice. Well why would they use more expensive ammunition for target practice? Solid bullets will perform the same for target practice.​

LEO for Florida FDLE are required to practice and qualify with duty ammo. I think this is true for many agencies.

Problem 2: Tons of federal agencies are ordering unprecedented amounts of ammunition. Why so much and why now?

Nobody has provided data in this thread supporting this assertion.​

 

[Chuck]

The following is on topic yet it expands the scope a bit. Perhaps it's best served in another category since this the below regards the potential end game for the ammo purchases. In my view, the conclusions drawn by the data are a mite presumptuous, but this is the kind of stuff that continually issues from the US patriot movement (for lack of a better term). I must say, the recent DHS purchase of 2,700 light-armored tanks is a bit unnerving causing one to wonder what they're expecting. I realize the actually order of 2,717 may not be as advertised, but still wondered if anyone had a thought or two?

Obama Poised to Carry Out Hostile Military Takeover of US
March 8, 2013 byda Tagliare

I've been told by a number of people that it would be impossible for any person to stage a military or hostile takeover of the United States. Ten years ago, I would have agreed with them, but not now.


In the past year, President Obama has taken a number of actions that when added together clearly indicates his plans for a military or hostile takeover of the United States. And for the first time in my life, I not only believe it could happen, but I am firmly convinced it's going to happen before the 2016.



To begin with, Obama has been tailoring the US military to his personal agenda. He is filling the ranks with gays and lesbians who will now follow him to any extreme because he is their champion. He has all but shackled chaplains from preaching Christianity to the troops, who by the way, aren't even allowed to have Bibles in some areas in the Middle East or any other semblance of Christianity. For the military coup de gras, he has been tailoring his top military leaders by asking if they are willing to shoot Americans. Those that answer yes, are put in key positions while those that answer no are basically seeing the end of their military careers.


Next, the Department of Homeland Security has been stockpiling millions of weapons and billions of rounds ammunition. The federal government even has NOAA stockpiling weapons and ammunition and they aren't going to be using it to predict the weather. This is unprecedented in American history and has no purpose or basis other than the use against the American people.


The massive push for gun control has only one purpose and that is to disarm the American people. There are more guns in private ownership than there are people in the US. That would make a hostile takeover more difficult, costly and time consuming. However, the stockpiles of weapons and ammunition are just for that purpose, because Obama knows that there are a lot of Americans who will not give up their guns so easily. Attorney General Eric Holder has already warned gun owners to cower like smokers.


One of the problems with the guns in the hands of people is that the government doesn't know where they all are. That's why they are pushing for complete gun registration and background checks for everyone who owns a firearm, regardless of any grandfather clauses. Under Obamacare, they are pushing doctors and medical staffers to gather information on their patients as to whether or not they own a gun.



Under the National Defense Authorization Act, the federal government has the legal right to indefinitely detain anyone they deem to be dangerous to the country. They do not have to produce any evidence, they do not have to obtain a warrant, and they do not have to give you the right to an attorney. All Obama or Eric Holder have to do is say you are a threat and that could be the last anyone sees of you for who knows how long.


Obama has also issued an executive order that gives him absolute power and control over all means of communication for any reason including an emergency. The executive order includes all television, radio, cable, internet and cell phone communications.


Lastly, Obama is already placing drones in the skies over America. His chief puppet, Attorney General Eric Holder has ruled that not only are the drones legal, but that Obama also has the legal right to use them to shoot Americans on American soil.


When you put this all together into one package, it's obvious that the stage is set for Barack Hussein Obama to use force in a hostile takeover of the United States. All he has to do is declare a state of emergency (mostly likely prompted by a forced economic collapse). This will allow him to control all forms of communication. Both military and DHS trained personnel will then start rounding up everyone that has or still opposes Obama and detain them under the National Defense Authorization Act. Those that resist will be face lethal force from the drones and/or the heavily armed military and DHS troops. Anyone resisting will be shot, since he has been given the legal authority to do so.

If Obama fears a threat from another nation, he would not be slashing military spending, cutting our nuclear arsenal down to a third of what it was and he wouldn't have NOAA stockpiling millions of weapons and ammunition. Everything Obama has being doing and putting in place is pointed inside the US, not outside. We are his target, not Iran, Syria, China, North Korea or al-Qaeda.


If you don't believe this will happen prior to the 2016 election, then please explain to me the purpose of all these things that have been strategically placed at this time. Also, I suggest you do a little studying of history in nations like Germany, Russia, China and other socialist nations. They all thought it could never happen to them and it did and it all started with a tyrant just like Obama gaining power and outlawing guns!

 

[Mick West]

The "tank" thing was dealt with upthread, Joe debunked it after he brought it up:

https://www.metabunk.org/posts/30518

 

[Chuck]

The "tank" thing was dealt with upthread, Joe debunked it after he brought it up:

https://www.metabunk.org/posts/30518

I guess I hadn't scoured Metabunk as much as I'd thought. Thanks, Mick. Perhaps that's why they pay you the big bucks. LoL

Here's another debunking link. http://littlegreenfootballs.com/art..._Obama_DHS_Purchases_2700_Light-Armored_Tanks

The paranoia is reaching a fever pitch here in the states.

 

[RolandD]

The following is on topic yet it expands the scope a bit. Perhaps it's best served in another category since this the below regards the potential end game for the ammo purchases. In my view, the conclusions drawn by the data are a mite presumptuous, but this is the kind of stuff that continually issues from the US patriot movement (for lack of a better term). I must say, the recent DHS purchase of 2,700 light-armored tanks is a bit unnerving causing one to wonder what they're expecting. I realize the actually order of 2,717 may not be as advertised, but still wondered if anyone had a thought or two?

Well, there are a number of gross interpretations and misrepresentations, and a few out right lies in that article. Has anyone tried to go back and find similar ammo purchases by the government in the past. This seems to me to mostly be making a big deal out of something that is business as usual. Most of this stuff has its origins during the Bush administration, yet no one wove it into a conspiracy then.