Alien Chess Fiend
Member
What was the new information?
David Grusch's DOPSR Cleared Statement and IG Complaint
- Thread starter Mick West
- Start date
Duke
Senior Member.
We'd have a better idea if Grusch would release the findings reports that resulted from his IG complaints.
Rick Robson
Active Member
For which the congressmen will not dare to do anything about. Am I right?
Curious George
Active Member
The IG is required to give Grusch status reports. However, if any of his claims are true, somebody somewhere is going to get arrested, and eventually the funding to this secret program should get cut off, and it should be brought under oversight to the "gang of eight", those cleared to bring oversight to secret programs. This is a big change, if the program has operated secretly for a long time.
If its merely a program to retrieve downed foreign planes, I don't see why it was operated so secretly and illegally.
Rick Robson
Active Member
As we've hoped that the law will keep on working 100% for protection of the people, let us believe all those legal measures will be REALLY taken.
Duke
Senior Member.
Grusch can release the IG findings reports if he chooses to do so. Names may have to be redacted, however. I've been through this personally as related in this post.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/da...-statement-and-ig-complaint.12989/post-302196
Recovery of foreign/adversary assets such as downed aircraft or other military equipment can be highly classified for a number of reasons. First and foremost, you don't want the other guys to know you've recovered their assets. Additional, such efforts are often undertaken with the assistance of individuals within the service of the nation that lost the asset. You burn them, and the next guy who's considered providing such assistance will think twice about doing so.
Curious George
Active Member
Thank you for your insight! I don't deny that secrecy would be involved, but why shouldn't the gang of eight be aware of its existence?
Also, could it be that the IG investigation is still ongoing, even after 2 years? My latest information is that it has not been closed, although I don't have a link handy. I also have to point out, that Grusch now claims he does have first-hand information, that he was in a secret UFO program which tracked UFOs, and that he will provide further details in an article to be published next month. Again, no link handy, but I will try to follow up.
Curious George
Active Member
Duke
Senior Member.
Grusch has claimed all along he was part of a UAP program (can't remember which one it was) and as part of that program he was tasked to see what other UFO programs existed. It was those other programs that allegedly refused to read him in to a level he felt he was entitled to that started the ball rolling toward his whistleblowing.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
If it is a secret, would you and I be told that they were aware of it? My level of clearance is not very high...
Duke
Senior Member.
Let's wait to see what he says, if anything. We all know disclosure types have a history of big promises, then delivering very little.
Curious George
Active Member
Yes, the UAPTF directed him to do that. No, this is a different UFO program:
Source: https://twitter.com/wow36932525/status/1744486134883782988/photo/1
There was recently a private presentation by Mr. Grusch provided to professors, lawyers, business people, and a few scientists, according to an attendee. During the Q&A afterwards, Grusch revealed that he was part of a program which could track UFO's.
Curious George
Active Member
-Rep. Moskowitz stated that many of Grusch's claims were true
-The ICIG can only investigate fraud and reprisals
-Grusch's claims are that there is a secret crash-retrieval program using government money without authorization and without oversight
-Therefore we conclude this claim is true. If it doesn't have oversight, that means the "gang of eight" is not overseeing it.
-I then ask the question, how did such a program come to exist and why was it operating illegally? I am comparing this to other secret programs, which I assume do crash retrievals, have oversight, and do not steal government funds for their operations.
Duke
Senior Member.
He can claim anything. I look forward to seeing his proof of this claim.
Curious George
Active Member
Yes of course, however some skeptics had criticized his claims for being 2nd hand knowledge, now we have first-hand knowledge to debate. However, I won't go any further on this.
Tezcatlipoca
Active Member
This release gives us some great takeaways! Let's break it down.
>First up, at least, as part of the documentation presented, Grusch did not make a report to ICIG, instead, he was approached by ICIG on the word of another.
This adds a bit of an issue, as, before this, we know of 2 distinct situations of interaction between Grusch and ICIG, both in which Grusch is claimed to have made the report.
In the first, it's claimed the report was about the fraud and abuse (and all the.. other claims), the second, it's claimed about retribution against him. The second report, has actually been validated with prior documentation. The documentation from this one, heavily appears not to be connected to the second report made, but aligned closer to what's referenced in the supposed first report. So, either, Grusch and media outlets deceptively presented the context of the first report, or, there was a third situation of interaction between Grusch and ICIG that was left out of reporting and reference, and this documentation be from that unreferenced situation.
>In the report, Grusch apparently makes the statement that he'd been studying UAPs for 15 years, as of 2021. This adds a lot of red flags around his other statements about his own interest, in which he's presented neutral interest or disinterest that spawned near-term to him obtaining his job working those matters.
>It is also stated that Grusch promotes red team/blue team assessments for this matter. While I don't believe Grusch himself has done this, a lot of individuals surrounding him and presenting him, have tried to frame AAROs red/blue team assessments as some sort of conspiracy element - not because of the context, but simply because of the red/blue team assessment factor. Although it is interesting they've done nothing at all to attempt to counter the inaccurate claims there, as, this is the more "proper" way to conduct this type of intelligence analysis.
Now, we delve into the great Strategic Anomaly Resolution Office Proposal.
>The proposal itself contains many overlapping points of communication with Karl Nells claimed "disclosure plan", primarily under "Objectives" and "Focus Areas", and "Enablers".
>In the last side, the procedural process of how technology is handled, is explained exactly in the state everyone claims is a conspiracy. The government obtains it, protects information related to it, then sends it to the private sector for exploitation, who sends it back to the government. It is further interesting that Grusch, for example, has not attempted to combat this idea, but instead actually does promote this one, which is contradictory to his very own proposal.
>In the part I find the most interesting, under "Visualization" "Observation" and "Data Analytics", Grusch is presenting.... a part of a TTSA program that was never publicly released. Now, I will not say this confirms Grusch knew any of these guys *before AARO even existed*, but it is quite interesting Grusch had access to private access TTSA programs, during a time he has claimed to not know any of these guys and not have interacted with them.
>First up, at least, as part of the documentation presented, Grusch did not make a report to ICIG, instead, he was approached by ICIG on the word of another.
This adds a bit of an issue, as, before this, we know of 2 distinct situations of interaction between Grusch and ICIG, both in which Grusch is claimed to have made the report.
In the first, it's claimed the report was about the fraud and abuse (and all the.. other claims), the second, it's claimed about retribution against him. The second report, has actually been validated with prior documentation. The documentation from this one, heavily appears not to be connected to the second report made, but aligned closer to what's referenced in the supposed first report. So, either, Grusch and media outlets deceptively presented the context of the first report, or, there was a third situation of interaction between Grusch and ICIG that was left out of reporting and reference, and this documentation be from that unreferenced situation.
>In the report, Grusch apparently makes the statement that he'd been studying UAPs for 15 years, as of 2021. This adds a lot of red flags around his other statements about his own interest, in which he's presented neutral interest or disinterest that spawned near-term to him obtaining his job working those matters.
>It is also stated that Grusch promotes red team/blue team assessments for this matter. While I don't believe Grusch himself has done this, a lot of individuals surrounding him and presenting him, have tried to frame AAROs red/blue team assessments as some sort of conspiracy element - not because of the context, but simply because of the red/blue team assessment factor. Although it is interesting they've done nothing at all to attempt to counter the inaccurate claims there, as, this is the more "proper" way to conduct this type of intelligence analysis.
Now, we delve into the great Strategic Anomaly Resolution Office Proposal.
>The proposal itself contains many overlapping points of communication with Karl Nells claimed "disclosure plan", primarily under "Objectives" and "Focus Areas", and "Enablers".
>In the last side, the procedural process of how technology is handled, is explained exactly in the state everyone claims is a conspiracy. The government obtains it, protects information related to it, then sends it to the private sector for exploitation, who sends it back to the government. It is further interesting that Grusch, for example, has not attempted to combat this idea, but instead actually does promote this one, which is contradictory to his very own proposal.
>In the part I find the most interesting, under "Visualization" "Observation" and "Data Analytics", Grusch is presenting.... a part of a TTSA program that was never publicly released. Now, I will not say this confirms Grusch knew any of these guys *before AARO even existed*, but it is quite interesting Grusch had access to private access TTSA programs, during a time he has claimed to not know any of these guys and not have interacted with them.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
Many of his claims are true indicates what we know -- that he made a number of claims. Some of them involved reprisals, some involved secret UAP crash recoveries. Perhaps the former contains the "many of Grusch's claims" that were true.
As is frequently the case, we have folks implying that evidence that we cannot see proves their point. It may well be that there are reasons why we can't see this batch of claimed evidence. The fact that we can't see it need not indicate anything nefarious or make us doubt the evidence exists (though it doesn't prove that it DOES exist, even when vouched-for by respected politicians.) But we all know that some bits of evidence are better than others, and often evidence supports more than one conclusion depending on what else you know and how carefully you consider it. Sadly, we can't consider it carefully or assess it in light of what else we know if we can't see it. This is true no matter how valid the reasons why we can't see it may or may not be.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
Can you clarify this? What first hand knowledge do we now have? Somebody else making a claim that they have seen evidence we can't see is not first hand knowledge -- but maybe you're talking about some bit I missed.
Duke
Senior Member.
I think it would be more accurate to say, "....now we have claims of first hand knowledge to debate."
As for his claim of a having been part of an "extremely secret program that had figured out how to track and find uap's in our atmosphere and near earth orbit," (per your post #292 above), I would not be surprised to learn we have developed a classified radar/sensor capability to better track/identity aerial threats. This probably had more to do with drones and advanced stealthy and/or hypersonic missiles developed by potential peer/near peer adversaries more than UFOs. I'd think this synonymous to claiming the USN classified undersea sensor system that came to light after the small Titan submersible was lost last spring was developed to track/identity USOs as opposed to foreign submarines.
Last edited:
Rick Robson
Active Member
Exactly, and it's not news to those who follow Grusch's appearances on digital media outlets -- Newsnation is one of them but can't provide the links without an extensive search (sorry for not following the forums' guidelines here and understand this post may be deleted).
Mendel
Senior Member.
And I would say that "many" is less than "all".
We have Grusch's ICIG complaint in post #2 of this thread. It has two main claim complexes:
1) IC elements have withheld UAP-related information from Congress. They did so to thwart Congressional oversight.
2) Grusch's DoD-IG complaint was leaked, and he suffered reprisals as a result, including impediments to his clearances.
As long as we don't have first-hand testimony, we can't even say if "many" includes claims from complex 1, complex 2, or both.
Curious George
Active Member
He made claims under oath, but in terms of speaking of what people told him, and skeptics said this was 2nd hand knowledge. Now he has a claim of first-hand knowledge. There are reports he will testify to congress again, and if he testifies again, publicly under oath, of his first-hand knowledge of being in a UFO tracking program, skeptics can no longer say "he heard a story from a friend of a friend of some guy who thought there was a UFO program", as its dismissively been put previously.
Curious George
Active Member
Of course, its not hard to believe there are new situational awareness systems being deployed, however one of his claims from the July 26 public hearing is that he has personally analyzed objects which defy the laws of physics, and he added, he has a degree in physics. So now we can speculate a claim that he analyzed objects with a secret sensor system showing anomalous movement. Such a claim is in fact backed by a FOIA from NRO which spoke of multiple systems detecting a tic-tac like object. It was determined to be a UAP and reported as such.
Duke
Senior Member.
Links to the FOIA story would be helpful, and speculation is frowned upon here.
Curious George
Active Member
I agree, not all his claims have been proven. Thus I said originally, many, if including all the prosaic ones, seems to indicate that there is indeed reprisals, and an illegally funded program running without oversight, if you count only the most prosaic claims. If that adds to 3 claims, there's room for more esoteric claims as well, such as the program is a crash retrieval program, of aliens craft, which in my opinion would still be part of the investigation of the ICIG, but only so far as its inherently tied to the existence of a fraudulent secret program itself.
Tezcatlipoca
Active Member
We do have plenty of sourcing about a program being ran without ample oversight and intentional deception. That, would be AAWSAP/AATIP.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
But one could note that he is changing his story... if that happens.
In addition, speculation that first hand evidence is coming soon is not the same thing as we now have first hand evidence.
Curious George
Active Member
I agree, we don't now have first-hand evidence.
I believe many people feel that he is "changing his story", however he didn't deny he had first-hand knowledge in the public hearing. He said he could answer that in a secure setting. He didn't change his story. Its amazing how many people misremember that.
Rick Robson
Active Member
I guess this is the link to that FOIA, it will download the NRO's document in PDF format:
https://www.nro.gov/Portals/65/documents/foia/declass/ForAll/103122/F-2021-00154_C05136334.pdf
Curious George
Active Member
Yes, there was deception, but there was oversight, since Reid was one of the gang of eight.
Curious George
Active Member
Yes, that's the one!
Rick Robson
Active Member
It was the first link listed when I googled "FOIA from NRO which spoke of multiple systems detecting a tic-tac like object"
. Note that it's heavily redacted though.
Last edited:
Tezcatlipoca
Active Member
Unfortunately having a Congress person participating in the deceiving of proper regulatory authorities and oversight bodies does not count as ample oversight.
Curious George
Active Member
True, however my only point is that the program Grusch refers to, is the only truly illegal secret program that I'm aware of.
Mendel
Senior Member.
I'm not following your count of 3. These complexes have many sub-claims, that can be true or false separately. For example, a program may have been withheld from "Congress", but that happened for a legitimate reason. Or Grusch may have suffered some reprisal, but his clearance wasn't part of it.
You're trying to construct a reading where you're trying to make those vague second-hand statements say something they were not intended to say, but that you'd like to hear. You risk departing from reality that way.
There is one thing that people are forgetting, a very important thing.
There is no way, NO WAY, that Grusch knows all of the programs that have been briefed to the Gang-of-Eight.
To know that he would have to have interviewed (and probably tortured) all of the current and former (living) members of that group.
He may think that he knows, but he does not. Or do you think there is a list of all these black programs pasted on the wall of the Pentagon Lobby? With details as to the name, purpose, dates, locations and financing of those programs? What he knows is what he has been told by various people, from different groups, with different motives and levels of knowledge.
Ann K
Senior Member.
Burchett's comments, though they are difficult to hear, clearly state "It's not about little green men in flying saucers". It sounds as if it's about money, so that will break the hearts of the die-hard UFOlogists (and put the lie to Grusch's claims about ETs) but make the anti-government conspiracy guys happy.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
Sorta "oversight". Reid knew about AASWAP, because he sponsored it and he knew it was funneling millions to his fellow Saint, Nevadan and campaign doner Bigelow, so that he could look for ghost and UFOs on his private ranch with taxpayer money. Contrary to what the RFP for AASWAP stated. The term AATIP was created in an attempt to further hide where AASWAP funds were going.
I don't think that's what Grusch is talking about, though it would be ironically entertaining. It does raise the notion, how many other little BS programs like AASWAP go on all the time and never see the light of day? One could speculate Grush caught wind of something like AASWAP and that became his "secret program", no UFOs needed.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
Unless it does not exist...
Tezcatlipoca
Active Member
I actually do wonder though if Grusch may have been referencing/picking up stuff related to Elizondos "AATIP" (whether or not he actually knew that specifically), all we really know about that is there was Elizondo, and, we don't really know who else participated in his informal group there, I do think it is unlikely it was just him.
Outside of Elizondos "AATIP", the only other thing we know about is AAWSAP/(real)AATIP, and, I think for this sort of stuff, may have been the only one. I only say that because all these subjects largely involve the same people, dating back before the 2000s, and their continued networking and careers allows them to leverage it to do things like this. Not that there couldn't be others, but I'd bet their angle is starkly different, and may also include "legacy" individuals/networks involved in odder R&D programs from the pre-2000s, lot of those guys still floating around gov/mil functions.
Similar threads
- Locked
Latest posts
-
-
Family claim Amber Alert ruptured son's eardrums, file lawsuit against Apple
- Latest: serpentdebunker
