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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  2. Christopher 7

    Christopher 7 Member

    NCSTAR 1A p.5 [PDF p. 47]
     
  3. Christopher 7

    Christopher 7 Member

    Mick,
    The supposed collapse of the columns under the east penthouse is being used to explain the window wave so the fact that there is no proof that this happened is very much on topic.
     
  4. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The question here is if the wave is evidence of the collapse of the penthouse through the building. It's not about other evidence of that collapse. Please stay on topic.
     
  5. Christopher 7

    Christopher 7 Member

    The east penthouse could not fall that fast unless the columns under the penthouse failed near the bottom of the building. You said as much in your first post by saying that the wave
     
  6. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Indeed, so if the East Penthouse DID fall that fast (if the wave is evidence of a fall) then that's evidence of such a column failure.
     
  7. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    I see a lot of guessing and imagining going on on both sides of this debate.
    For example, the light shining or not shining through the windows in front of the hollowed eastern part: Perhaps - I am guessing as anybody else does - the collapse created plenty of dustin inside of the walls that blocked light below the 46th floor?

    Everybody sees what they want to see. The wave is evidence of times explosive charges going off top to bottom if that is what suits your bias.
     
  8. Christopher 7

    Christopher 7 Member

    What? Me biased? ;-)

    This has been a very worthwhile discussion.The light thru the windows and the window wave are subject to interpretation so they really don't qualify as evidence for either side.
     
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  9. Nada Truther

    Nada Truther Active Member

    Not to mention the fact that we can't see what is happening on the other side of the building. That is the more damaged side. There may have been areas already open for dirt and debris to escape. With WTC 1 and 2, everything below impact was pretty well sealed up until the collapse.
     
  10. Nada Truther

    Nada Truther Active Member

    I would imagine that each floor that collapses would have some things still hanging as they collapsed. This would create a sort of curtaining effect IF light were to shine through. Is it possible that this curtaining effect is the reason that we don't see light? Maybe.... There are certain factors that we will NEVER know and our individual Bias' will have to probably remain forever. That is a fact that most of use are going to have to struggle with.
     
  11. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Look at the smoke being sucked in, especially in the middle video.

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf1HcJ7GKsc


    Doesn't that prove (or at least strongly indicate) that the penthouse was continuing to fall? If it stopped after a floor then the sucking effect would not be continuous like this.
     
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  12. Christopher 7

    Christopher 7 Member

    Perspective can be deceiving and looking at the smoke on a two dimensional screen is not a valid basis for determining what you are claiming. I think that your analysis is just wishful thinking.
     
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  13. Jeffrey Orling

    Jeffrey Orling Active Member

    In a structure including part of the roof drops down... it would pull a "vacuum" or negative pressure... This is similar to what you see behind a fast vehicle moving down a dusty road.
     
  14. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    If you believe the window lighting and the behavior of the smoke are both indeterminate (and maybe they are, though I think the smoke's behavior doesn't make sense with a single-story drop theory), then surely the massive ripple of distortion that moves downward across the face of the building in exact alignment with how we'd expect the penthouse debris to be moving per NIST's model is a sufficient basis for us to say that the penthouse likely did collapse all the way through, right?

    Is there any evidence for Tony's theory being more likely than NIST's re the behavior of the penthouse that you think is being overlooked?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018 at 10:25 AM
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  15. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Perhaps you could offer a valid alternative explanation of the downwards moving smoke that keeps moving down after the penthouse has fallen a floor? Where is it going?
     
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  16. Christopher 7

    Christopher 7 Member

    Your analysis of the smoke is based on a long range, grainy, two dimensional video with very poor contrast.

    Also, the wind was coming from the north, blowing the smoke away from WTC 7 as you can see on this video:


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=30&v=wqA46_bX5n0