WHY do you debunk?

Gretchen · Sep 12, 2015

Whitebeard said:
I used to take a passing interest in conspiracy, mainly for the entertainment value,

It's true that the imagination required has served a purpose, bringing us stuff like The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail (not The Da Vinci Code) and various Dr Who episodes.
Paranoid conspiracies are not so much a failure of the imagination as its failure to recognise itself.

Whitebeard · Sep 12, 2015

Gretchen said:
It's true that the imagination required has served a purpose, bringing us stuff like The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail (not The Da Vinci Code) and various Dr Who episodes

And loads of great thrillers like Telefon, The Boys From Brazil, The Day Of The Jackyl, Marathon Man.... etc, and in those cases conspiracy is fun, as most people can tell fact from wild flights of fantasy. But sadly there are a minority who look upon such fictional conspiracies as documentaries.

Efftup · Sep 12, 2015

Gretchen said:
It's true that the imagination required has served a purpose, bringing us stuff like The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail (not The Da Vinci Code) and various Dr Who episodes.
Paranoid conspiracies are not so much a failure of the imagination as its failure to recognise itself.

I quite enjoyed The Da Vinci Code, but there were too many people who did not seem to realise it was a work of FICTION.
Holy Blood and Holy Grail was more interesting though, because although they got some stuff a bit out of whack, they did try to explain their reasoning and their deductive processes throughout the book

MikeG · Sep 12, 2015

I started into debunking when I saw the contrast between claims made by CT believers and the standards that I had been trained in as an academic.

History is my field and I have learned that the narrative can be complicated.

While learning how to write history, I discovered the following:

1. Simple answers are usually suspect.

2. Causation reinforced by multiple, legitimate, correlated sources matter.

3. Monolithic, omnipotent power is a myth.

4. Final conclusions are never the final word about anything. The truth is never complete. Challenging and revising our understanding of any topic is an important and dynamic intellectual process.

What always stands out when I talk to anyone who believes in conspiracy theories is their absolute certainty. I find the lack of curiosity about their conclusions troubling.

Metabunk opened my eyes to the actual paucity of reasonable evidence supporting many CT claims.

My hope is to reintroduce the conspiracy theory believers whom I know to a more reasonable, reliable approach to finding the truth, tempered by the understanding that although the “Truth is Out There” (like in the X-Files), we are never really going to find it (again, like in the X-Files).

Gretchen · Sep 13, 2015

MikeG said:
3. Monolithic, omnipotent power is a myth.

A friend of mine says that conspiracy theorists are looking for God.

On the absence of simplicity from history; that fact that we arrange fictional events into an easy-to-follow narrative to make stories - in an attempt perhaps to explain and pass on basic philosophical/psychological 'truths' - seems to suggest a longing for order in a chaotic world.
Most of us are lazy by default, and that includes in thinking.

Or perhaps I'm overthinking all this.

Hama Neggs · Sep 13, 2015

Gretchen said:
A friend of mine says that conspiracy theorists are looking for God.

On the absence of simplicity from history; that fact that we arrange fictional events into an easy-to-follow narrative to make stories - in an attempt perhaps to explain and pass on basic philosophical/psychological 'truths' - seems to suggest a longing for order in a chaotic world.
Most of us are lazy by default, and that includes in thinking.

Or perhaps I'm overthinking all this.

No, I think you're on track. CTers seem to be wanting to place responsibility for the conditions of their lives on some external power center which they seek to blame for their lack of contentment or maybe lack of accomplishment.

MikeG · Sep 13, 2015

Gretchen said:
A friend of mine says that conspiracy theorists are looking for God.

On the absence of simplicity from history; that fact that we arrange fictional events into an easy-to-follow narrative to make stories - in an attempt perhaps to explain and pass on basic philosophical/psychological 'truths' - seems to suggest a longing for order in a chaotic world.
Most of us are lazy by default, and that includes in thinking.

Or perhaps I'm overthinking all this.

I think that you are exactly right.

There is a good thread offering readings on conspiracy theories. You should take a look at it.

https://www.metabunk.org/what-books-are-you-reading-conspiracy-related-science-etc.t2532/

nivek · Sep 13, 2015

Gretchen said:
A friend of mine says that conspiracy theorists are looking for God.

Did your friend elaborate on that thought?...If a conspiracy theorist was setting out to convince people man did not land on the moon, basically saying the Apollo moon landings are fake, how is this looking for God?...

Marin B · Sep 13, 2015

Why do I debunk? I'm not really sure... I think it might just be in my nature. My earliest memory of debunking was when I was about 6 years old. It was Christmas time and I had sat on Santa's lap at the local department store. Then, as we were leaving the store I saw a different-looking Santa Claus crossing the street. After I got confirmation from my older brother about Santa, I told my best friend thinking that I was doing her a big favor by letting her know the truth. But then I got a stern lecture from her mother because my friend stayed up all night waiting for Santa and I had spoiled all the fun of Christmas. I was confused that telling the truth would be met with such disappointment! Then later on with the internet and the crazy email rumors that used to get passed around, I discovered Snopes and again tried to be a bearer of truth. I'm very analytical and if I'm told something that doesn't seem right, I like to try to get the truth and pass it along. Though, I've discovered that CTs seem to have a different mindset altogether, or at least the one I know -- once the mind is made up about a CT, nothing is going to change it. I think this website is a great service to those who have just encountered a CT and are doing their own research into it. Get them before they fall down the rabbit hole

Gretchen · Sep 17, 2015

nivek said:
Did your friend elaborate on that thought?...If a conspiracy theorist was setting out to convince people man did not land on the moon, basically saying the Apollo moon landings are fake, how is this looking for God?...

He tells me that what he actually said was that conspiracy theorists have already found God and that their task is to convince the world of it (God = "Truth" in this sense.)

Here's the rest, pasted verbatim.
Basically I was thinking about Fox Mulder, Your Honor, because there's a new X-Files coming out in January. What I meant was that 'God' is a metaphor for 'The Truth', which is elevated to the status of a kind of holiness which will solve all ills of the world if it could be found out and spread to the 'Sheeple'. The man accusing the government of faking the moon landing is really seeking proof of the confirmation of a Higher Power - at least analogously - that he is the only one who sees Reason in a world where such achievements are absolutely impossible because he cannot intuit them beforehand. His is a Holy Quest fueled by resentment against the devils of his age and he is armed with doubts labeled as self-evident fact on his footpath to the sacred mountain.

Anyone still with me?

Efftup · Sep 17, 2015

Gretchen said:
Anyone still with me?

Not really. I THOUGHT I was but then I lost you.
I ORIGINALLY thought you meant looking for God in the sense that in the same way that religion fills a gap in many people's lives, conspiracy theory can do a similar job.
It is a strange and chaotic world out there and we all try to imppose as much order on it as we can.
Some people will explain things like "It was God's plan" whereas others will explain it like it was yet another NWO/Illuminati plot.

Hama Neggs · Sep 17, 2015

Efftup said:
Not really. I THOUGHT I was but then I lost you.
I ORIGINALLY thought you meant looking for God in the sense that in the same way that religion fills a gap in many people's lives, conspiracy theory can do a similar job.
It is a strange and chaotic world out there and we all try to imppose as much order on it as we can.
Some people will explain things like "It was God's plan" whereas others will explain it like it was yet another NWO/Illuminati plot.

Either way, it's envisioning responsibility for events and your life in the hands of an external force.

Efftup · Sep 17, 2015

Yes. Very few people these days are prepared to accept the consequences and take responsibility of their own actions.

JDubyah · Sep 17, 2015

Gretchen said:
He tells me that what he actually said was that conspiracy theorists have already found God and that their task is to convince the world of it (God = "Truth" in this sense.)

Here's the rest, pasted verbatim.
Basically I was thinking about Fox Mulder, Your Honor, because there's a new X-Files coming out in January. What I meant was that 'God' is a metaphor for 'The Truth', which is elevated to the status of a kind of holiness which will solve all ills of the world if it could be found out and spread to the 'Sheeple'. The man accusing the government of faking the moon landing is really seeking proof of the confirmation of a Higher Power - at least analogously - that he is the only one who sees Reason in a world where such achievements are absolutely impossible because he cannot intuit them beforehand. His is a Holy Quest fueled by resentment against the devils of his age and he is armed with doubts labeled as self-evident fact on his footpath to the sacred mountain.

Anyone still with me?

I've had similar thoughts on that subject, except I see it as many CT'ers trying to find the Devil hidden in all of machinations they believe are in place to cover up his Evil plan. And I think that finding God is a byproduct of that - if you prove the Devil exists, you thereby prove God as well, and vice-versa. Of course 'God' and 'Devil' are easily replaced by a 'higher power', and that folds in well with the modern age of large systems of government and control, and technologies and science that are less and less understood; when people feel controlled and helpless, they look to regain control and feel safe again in whatever way is most familiar to them. Notions of good and evil, God and the Devil, are old, familiar, safe concepts that for many, are seeking a new home in the modern world.

Trying to identify the Devil in the details and expose the 'evil' operations of the Illuminatti or Satanic Cults, or Government, Geoengineering, and so on, many are saying 'see, you can't fool me', and could be seen as a way of doing God's work.. by preaching to the masses of the conspiracy, and hoping to reveal the 'Truth' a world in which everyone has had the wool pulled over their eyes by the Evildoers.

So in that sense, the conspiracies and conspirators are the work of the 'Devil' higher powers, and the 'Truth' is what the CT's spread as a new gospel of 'Holy' cure to the evil in the world.

Or something like that.

JRBids · Sep 30, 2015

MikeG said:
What always stands out when I talk to anyone who believes in conspiracy theories is their absolute certainty. I find the lack of curiosity about their conclusions troubling.

Yes, me too. And the irony is they claim THEY are the skeptics and don't believe anything. That ANY explanation of any event is "possible". However, the explanation they believe is certain.

JRBids · Sep 30, 2015

Efftup said:
Not really. I THOUGHT I was but then I lost you.
I ORIGINALLY thought you meant looking for God in the sense that in the same way that religion fills a gap in many people's lives, conspiracy theory can do a similar job.
It is a strange and chaotic world out there and we all try to imppose as much order on it as we can.
Some people will explain things like "It was God's plan" whereas others will explain it like it was yet another NWO/Illuminati plot.

I think it means: they are looking for order in their lives, they are filling a gap that used to be filled by religion, they are seeing "god" as in an all controlling being (i.e. the government, the illuminati, etc) "running" the world....the moon landings I think reflects their general distrust of life in general. Thinking everyone is lying to them.

ssfor27 · Oct 2, 2015

I debunk because of what happened yesterday in Oregon at Umpqua Community College. Being a federal worker, I have to say, all these recent shootings really concern me. Not that I want to take away people's rights to guns - hardly - I support that amendment wholeheartedly. But rather that there is a lot of angst towards the United States government. I have a feeling it is just a matter of time before a government building is targeted.

There are literally tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people who truly believe mankind can control the weather and is using HAARP and/or NEXRAD radar to target and kill people, or at least influence the weather with the result sometimes leading to deaths. The majority of this nonsense is promoted online and I have seen numerous threats towards the National Weather Service, and in particular, to the WSR-88 weather radar...where I do spend a lot of time working.

It is not unreasonable to think that someday, one of those people is going to act upon their beliefs. That's why I debunk the weather stuff when I can.

benthamitemetric · Oct 2, 2015

When I was in law school my younger brother started bombarding me with emails about how he was planning to fight parking ticket on the basis that he was sovereign individual and the locality that had ticketed him had no jurisdiction to do so. At first, I actually found responding to be a interesting--there are, after all, deep philosophical questions (as well as interesting practical question) about the bases for giving any particular governmental agency authority over a particular realm of human activity. The more I researched and responded, however, the more I realized that, though he had not done any of the type of research necessary to properly consider the issue at hand, he had already made his mind up about it and the actual answers I was providing held no sway. I started ignoring him--frustrated as I was with the seemingly pointless endeavor of engaging him--but eventually my frustration turned to curiosity. My brother is not a stupid person. How could it be that he could not only adopt such a ridiculous set of beliefs (a set of beliefs that were not only illogical and without bases, but which were also completely antithetical to enjoying and contributing to society), but also feel so strongly about them as to argue about them in spite of contrary evidence?

It's a question I still haven't fully answered, though my subsequent conversations and research into conspiracy theorists have given me a much deeper understanding of the phenomenon in general. I've mentioned before on this site that I was heavily influenced by Cass Sunstein (who was also fascinated by the subject for a variety of reasons and whose seminars I happened to be attending at the time), and I think the combination of his influence and my brother's trip down the rabbit hole fairly convinced me that the proliferation of unfounded conspiracy theories and similar ideas has a net negative effect on society. If those who know better allow such bunk to fester and be repeated with impunity, potential believers on the margins are liable to get sucked into the epistemologically crippling vortex of such thinking. While providing counterpoints to such bunk may have relatively little influence on those who are already true believers, every clear-thinking individual on the margins who is prevented from making the leap to becoming a true believer is a victory.

MikeG · Oct 2, 2015

benthamitemetric said:
When I was in law school my younger brother started bombarding me with emails about how he was planning to fight parking ticket on the basis that he was sovereign individual and the locality that had ticketed him had no jurisdiction to do so. At first, I actually found responding to be a interesting--there are, after all, deep philosophical questions (as well as interesting practical question) about the bases for giving any particular governmental agency authority over a particular realm of human activity. The more I researched and responded, however, the more I realized that, though he had not done any of the type of research necessary to properly consider the issue at hand, he had already made his mind up about it and the actual answers I was providing held no sway. I started ignoring him--frustrated as I was with the seemingly pointless endeavor of engaging him--but eventually my frustration turned to curiosity. My brother is not a stupid person. How could it be that he could not only adopt such a ridiculous set of beliefs (a set of beliefs that were not only illogical and without bases, but which were also completely antithetical to enjoying and contributing to society), but also feel so strongly about them as to argue about them in spite of contrary evidence?

It's a question I still haven't fully answered, though my subsequent conversations and research into conspiracy theorists have given me a much deeper understanding of the phenomenon in general. I've mentioned before on this site that I was heavily influenced by Cass Sunstein (who was also fascinated by the subject for a variety of reasons and whose seminars I happened to be attending at the time), and I think the combination of his influence and my brother's trip down the rabbit hole fairly convinced me that the proliferation of unfounded conspiracy theories and similar ideas has a net negative effect on society. If those who know better allow such bunk to fester and be repeated with impunity, potential believers on the margins are liable to get sucked into the epistemologically crippling vortex of such thinking. While providing counterpoints to such bunk may have relatively little influence on those who are already true believers, every clear-thinking individual on the margins who is prevented from making the leap to becoming a true believer is a victory.

Very well said. And perhaps also a welcome to a fellow alumnus.

WHY do you debunk?

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