1. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    I too wanted to 'chime-in' and say that your story touched me. Giving "advice" might not be my "strong suit"; but know (and rest assured) that you have empathetic people here....some who actually do have experience, and can be a "touchstone" if you need it.
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2015
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  2. mceh

    mceh New Member

    Well, I guess I tried a couple of times. But it's tilting at windmills, these CT, miracle cures etc. :)
  3. Gary Cook

    Gary Cook Active Member

    It is hard to help people to think their way out of a conspiracy theory. Few people would admit to being wrong. Especially in public. It is tough to see one of your family believe some false claim from the internet that makes them live in fear and depression.

    Although in my experience some of my family I also have the opposite issue in the sense that challenging any status quo is a 'waste of time' or 'too much like effort'.

    So I have to deal with both sides of that paradigm with my relatives. Not that I want to create some kind of false dichotomy.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2015
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  4. Whitebeard

    Whitebeard Senior Member

    I think that applies to most people, I know I can certainly relate to that.

    One of the biggest rows I ever had with my father was over the start of the Falklands war, and Maggie Thatchers role in facilitating the political situation that lead to to the Argentine invasion. (Mainly around the withdrawal of the naval survey vessel HMS Endurance from the islands and the British Nationality Act of 1981 (which changed the UK citizenship rights of the Falkland islanders) at the point she was at her lowest in the polls. All against the advise of the Ministry of Defense and the Foreign Office who had been warning for at least two years that to act as such would send a signal to the Argentine ruling Junta that Britain was not interested in the Islands and would trigger an invasion to deflect the internal strife Argentina was then undergoing and help Galtieri cling to power. Norman St John Stevas, writes a good account of the situation in his book 'Two Cities')

    Anyway my father, a typical working class torey was claiming the traditional Maggie the heroine line and just couldn't even accept the notion that there may be some truth in the claims (even though they were coming in part at least from then torey insiders) that she 'coat tailed' the situation to save her political backside. It caused a huge row and even now, 30 plus years after the war, and 15 years or so after the row, the whole 'Falklands Thing' is off topic between us for the sake of family unity.

    All you can do in this situation, be they at the CT or status quo ends of any debate, is seek sound facts that back up your claims, plant a seed and hope that one day it may bear fruit, and then agree to differ.
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  5. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    GLAD to see you return "Gary". I haven't had the opportunity to discuss "bunk" with family members....but recently with a "co-worker". Who was about to fall down the "Alex Jones rabbit hole" (trademark pending...)....of course, THAT was a joke.
  6. Lisa P

    Lisa P Active Member

    Another thing we are contending with is the 'anonymous' people that believe they are living in the Matrix. They seem to take sides and play against each other. It is hard to know who is seriously trying to debunk and who are just there for the game. Some Anon's were at the first & last chemtrail protest I went to. There is not much you can say to anons as they just tell you you are brainwashed. I mentioned how important it was to vote once in a chemtrail group and near had my head bitten off. Only time and experiences will teach these ones but I agree just keep presenting facts and being respectful.
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  7. E**

    E** Member

    Yeah in my case more access to internet is the thing that snowballed the whole thing. But in your case you might hold out some hope if they are on SSRI's then they aren't listening to everything Jones is saying or they haven't heard him discuss it yet... I would be very careful they don't come off their medicines cold turkey and end up hurting themselves. I wonder how many people that need legitimate medication that... gentleman... has hurt or even killed over his long career that never will be accounted for.

    I haven't posted in a long while but I have to rant at how dangerous Alex Jones is. His anti vaccine propoganda are particularly infuriating if you know the science, the man is like the combination of used car salesman and sleazy lawyer everything he says has a kernel of truth which he distorts and spins 100's of times more than mainstream media ever could.

    The end goal is to convert people over to his John Birch inspired conservative libertarian "resistance" cult of course (ok it doesn't truly fit in with all the definitions of a cult but it is definitely cultish anyways)

    I told my family member when they started this it was all b.s. to suck them into right wing politics and low and behold more than a year later that is what has happened, there is just enough of the horseshoe effect going on that curves it into the extreme left where they originally started to keep them from seeing what it is.

    Of course Jones emphatically denies being right or left which is how he sucks you in. He just steals bits from smarter philosophies and arguments and adds them to his own. I swear the man reads all the debunking about himself and infowars and then reincorporates it into his own arguments so he can appear smarter. He's very sly.
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  8. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    This is what I was tangentially referring to in another thread, where I mentioned that I had an opportunity to inter-act with a person face-to-face who is an Alex Jones 'follower'. This is a slow process....takes time.
  9. Jeremy

    Jeremy Active Member

    I admittedly just ignore them whenever I see them post bunk on FB. I've been tempted to debate them whenever they post the anti-vaxxer stuff, however (my brother and sister-in-law have an autistic son and have been snookered into this, in spite of the fact that autism runs in my dad's side of the family, even before modern vaccines existed).
  10. thoughtform

    thoughtform New Member

    I used to have arguments about this kind of stuff until I came to the realisation that I love my family no matter what stories they believe in and I don't let it get to me anymore. It's not worth the arguing in my experience.

    Well, what year do you attribute as the startpoint of modern vaccines?
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  11. Whitebeard

    Whitebeard Senior Member

    I say 1796 when Edward Jenner published the results of his famous cow-pox / small pox experiments. But he was only following and expanding on the work of others. John Fewster published similar results in 1765, after reading an even earlier paper dating from around 1741, but for various reasons never followed up on it.

    Even the 1741 paper at the royal society was based on observations of the practice of variolation as practiced across much of the Islamic world and believed to originate from 15th century China.
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  12. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    considering he is specifically referring to autism, I would think he means before thimerisol was used as a preservative and/or before the (MMR) vaccines were grouped into one shot.
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  13. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    Many medical practices of ancient-medieval times are known to have been effective - but IMO knowing the reasons WHY something is effective is what seperates modern and "traditional" proctices of all types.
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  14. Trigger Hippie

    Trigger Hippie Senior Member

    There is a practical aspect to the arguments that needs to be considered.

    For instance, you have a family member who decides not to vaccinate her child at all. After she spends a weekend at a family water park she wants to drop in for a visit. At the same time you're in close contact with your wife's 99 year old grandmother who has cancer and a compromised immune system.

    To me the solution seems self evident except that the family member doesn't see the problem. "Measles? Who gets measles these days? Besides, if you're vaccinated you don't need to worry about exposure to unvaccinated children, right?"

    I'd say that's worth an argument no matter how much you love your family.
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  15. Jeremy

    Jeremy Active Member

    I had the MMR vaccine in mind.
  16. Santa's sidekick

    Santa's sidekick Active Member

    It can be very difficult to avoid arguments. I have several close relatives who are members of a rather cult-ish religious group which determines much of their lives and worldviews. It's almost impossible to avoid arguments when I'm in close contact with them.
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  17. Joseph

    Joseph New Member

    I think the "spread" of autism is due to increased awareness. That and the fact that diseases that were under the autism umbrella are now just labeled autism. It's highly unfortunate that vaccinations have taken the blame.
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  18. Joseph

    Joseph New Member

  19. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    My Mum reads the Daily Mail, which to me is the very embodiment of bunk in the UK.
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  20. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Not exactly. but kinda close enough. kinda.

    but yes it is a shame vaccinations have taken the blame.
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  21. Jeremy

    Jeremy Active Member

    I've recently been doing passive-aggressive trolling of bunk-believing family members of sorts on Facebook (liking various skeptic/debunking pages and certain photos, which is all visible to them).
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  22. Efftup

    Efftup Senior Member

    so not actually sharing on their walls or anything then?
  23. Jeremy

    Jeremy Active Member

    Nah, I don't want to bother them TOO much.
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  24. guyonearth

    guyonearth New Member

    I guess I should consider myself lucky. I was raised by a single mom (father died when I was 3) who was a very common-sense type of person who didn't go in for any nonsense at all (though we did have to go to church every week). I don't remember anybody in my family buying into weird ideas or conspiracies at all. Sure, they were a little suspicious of the government and some elected officials, but they always voted, paid their taxes and had every intention of collecting their social security. I guess I was luckier than most.
  25. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  26. guyonearth

    guyonearth New Member

    Interesting data, but it's worth pointing out that, in my opinion, conspiracy theories as a phenomenon only became widespread with the advent of first, the Internet, and second, the explosion of cable TV channels that produce the miasma of pseudo-documentaries which, while fueled to a certain extent by the internet, are able to reach an even larger audience that doesn't spend all day surfing conspiracy websites or youtube. I've got the feeling that if that poll was taken in, let's say 1978 with questions that were timely to that era, the "dos" would have been a significantly smaller proportion. I remember that era really well, and to be "into" the fringe back then, you had to hang out in libraries a lot looking for obscure books, you had to buy lots of UFO and mystery magazines and read all the small print ads in back, you had to be willing to spend a lot of money ordering books and pamphlets from them, in other words, you had to really go looking. All you need to do now is turn on your computer/tablet/phone, or just watch Fox News.
  27. tadaaa

    tadaaa Active Member

    those Do's look pretty high to me, 1 in 4 or 5 !!!!!

    Although some of the questions seem broad and open to interpretation

    Aliens as in Men In Black, or extra terrestrial life?
  28. guyonearth

    guyonearth New Member

    I think when you mention aliens to people in that context, it's definitely with the image of the "Grays", little green men, etc.
  29. jakesteele

    jakesteele New Member

    I always tell someone to thoroughly study 'both' sides with an emotionally detached and objective mind and then come to a conclusion, if possible.
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  30. Moses3D

    Moses3D New Member

    Hey all,

    I posted a while back about my dad being a believer in conspiracy theories (HAARP, dutchsinse, etc.), but I was unaware of the true state of his psyche. Things have devolved into a sort of gang stalking situation. I don't like bringing mental illness into the picture but I truly believe that he is suffering from Persecutory Delusional Disorder at the very least though it could possibly be schizophrenia-paranoid type.

    Allow me to explain. He had been living in California when all this started. At first, he would say that his computer and phone had been hacked and tell me to watch my phone as well as my wife's to make they hadn't been hacked as well. I sort of shrugged this off as it didn't seem too strange. However, claims started getting more bizarre, like he was being followed and being sent encrypted messages in his email. Finally, enough was apparently enough and he packed up all his belongings in his pickup and drove from California to my home in Springfield, Illinois. It wasn't until then that I realized the full extent of his problems. He believes the prime perpetrators behind these acts to be two of his ex-girlfriends (I know how that sounds). One's initials happen to be "TL" and works for Level Three Communications. This is important because he believes he is being followed by her trucks, which are marked either "TL" or "LT" on the front, back, or side. I believe this is called "loose association," common with schizophrenia type disorders. In addition, he claims to be able to hear what he calls RAVON waves (possibly an acronym, I don't know) which are used to track him. Also, even when his phone is off, he claims that it can still be used to listen in on him. I once saw him talking to his phone to someone he called Kumesh, or KuMesh; apparently one of his stalkers.

    After his visit, he continued on to the Chicago area where his brothers and sisters live. I should note, they have been dealing with this for much longer than I have. They did everything they could to convince him to seek help, to no avail. Finally, after a particularly nasty confrontation where he accused his brother of spying on him, they decided to seek a court ordered evaluation. He was taken into custody and evaluated and found not to be a threat to himself or others so he was released after 24 hours. My guess is that he didn't mention any of the stalking subjects during his stay. Unfortunately, his release confirmed to him both that he doesn't need help and his brother is truly trying to spy on him. Of course now he has basically disowned his family and wants to move down to be near me and my pregnant wife, which I can't say I'm terribly comfortable with.

    So that's the short version of the story. I'm not sure how I can now convince him that he needs help. Nor am I sure how I can keep him from coming around until he gets that help. Any suggestions would be most appreciated.
  31. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    i would ask your physician. MD.

    believe it or not a friend basically told me the exact same stuff about her grandmother and she wasnt into conspiracies at all.
  32. Joseph

    Joseph New Member

    Unfortunately Moses it may have to be a situation like my brothers, if mental illness is truly the culprit. My brother has been in and out of the hospital I think 4 times now. Currently he is living at a halfway house type of place. He seems to be doing good but I think he will always believe in bunk. Hopefully your father and my brother reach a happy medium where they can believe in bunk but not let it affect their lives.
  33. Sorry to hear of your family's tribulations with your father. Sounds like your father's belief in CT's was symptomatic of larger mental issues.
    Let me explain - my BIL also went through a complete mental collapse when he was older. Poor guy made a good living as a commodities trader, had a nice house in an uppity-type community, nice family. Then - something - happened. Started losing money in commodities (long, unnecessary story ending with) being released from prison, he was basically shunned by all the family members he had conned out of money, ourselves included. After spending a couple of years on the streets of a medium sized town, denying his mental problems even existed and refusing to do anything to help him deal with them, he died in his sleeping bag camped out on the town's library steps at the age of 50.

    I laud you, Moses, for trying to help him, but you must realize your father has to do almost all the heavy lifting himself, and this may not happen. So please, help him out as best you can, but make sure you protect yourself and your family from the effects of your father not coming to his senses. BIL's family got too involved in doing the heavy lifting for him, and it took it's toll on them - we had a memorial service for his once-promising daughter a few months back. She died at age 38.
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  34. Moses3D

    Moses3D New Member

    We (myself and my aunts and uncle) have taken measures to protect ourselves. It was terribly difficult to tell him that if he wants to be around the family anymore, including his soon to be born grandson, he MUST get treatment. It seems harsh, but my first priority must be my family. However, a glimmer of hope emerged not long after I cut that last family life line. He approached his brother, to whom he said he would never speak to again, and the two of them came to the conclusion together that his "wires" are off and his life is in disarray. It remains to be seen whether he will actually seek treatment, but it would appear that he at least acknowledges there is some sort of psychiatric issue.
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  35. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    Good. We all have to start somewhere.

    I can't imagine going through what I went through as an adolescent for the first time as an adult, and that was just bipolar. It must be horribly disorienting to have your life come down around your ears once you get used to it.

    You and your family seem to be doing what you can; hopefully things continue to improve.
  36. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    ive seen quite a few blogs, websites that deal with families dealing with schzophrenia, give advice on how to deal with the 'afflicted. i have no reason to think thats what he has but delusion and feelings of being 'persecuted' etc are the same it sounds.
    But dont discount physicians, seriously. If you have a decent, level headed physician they are familiar with many 'psychiatric' issues, and they often prescribe the milder medications without psychiatric input. Just a thought, as i think people get very offensive if they here "treatment" or "psychiatrist", where as "lets get a full physical and talk to the doctor to see if there may be something physical causing these feelings" is alot less threatening to start off. And physicians (if they are any good) have more 'training' on how to nonconfrontationally suggest seeing a shrink.
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  37. Moses3D

    Moses3D New Member

    I agree that it is definitely some sort of schizophrenia spectrum disorder, as there seems to be some auditory hallucinations included as well, although not voices, just sounds. One strong possibility is Persecutory Delusional Disorder. I would be interested to know if you can recommend any of those blogs or websites.
  38. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    sorry i dont recommend anything "medical" oriented unless i'm super well versed in the area of discussion and ive done massive research. my only recommendation is ask your physician for advice and if you want you can do a consultation with psychiatrists (youd have to pay out of pocket) that have experience with those symptoms and get some direction from one of them. I would say to be careful as a laymen sticking "labels" on him. I dont know anything really about old people dementia... but maybe its early alzheimers? type thing. i could see that presenting to the patient as 'the government following me' if they dont understand what is happening.
  39. Moses3D

    Moses3D New Member

    I'm definitely aware of the risk and freely open to correction. Dementia is something I haven't considered, but would make sense as there seems to be some memory problems, although it could be selective memory honestly. Regardless, the issue is simply to get him to get help and be truthful about his symptoms. He was of course evaluated by court order as I said above, but there is no was he was truthful about his experiences. I find it difficult to believe that a psychiatrist, upon hearing the things he has told the family, would give him a clean bill of health.
  40. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    i doubt a physician would either.

    Again i'm in no way suggesting any particular 'disorder' here... esp since reading this checklist i suffer from all of them at times :) but its not due to Alzheimers



    I think he would most likely be MORE truthful about his symptoms if he didnt feel threatened, and physicians (hopefully) are not threatening. They might even think "hhmm we dont know for sure but he might have mild alzheimers" and hook him up with support that is all peaches and cream and believing (as support people ARE with alzheimers) and that may be all he needs. ?