1. Cube Radio

    Cube Radio Member

    Obviously, with questions like [Has the 9/11 Truth Movement Stagnated?] it depends how you frame the question and who you ask. The focus on that thread so far has been on Facebook activity, or online activity, in relation to the group A&E911 and similar organisations.

    But if you focus on specific areas of society and actually survey those people with well designed questions, instead of speculating about online activity or lack of same, you will naturally find different results.

    For example, a large and recent survey of the attitudes of Muslims living in the UK revealed that in the specific matter of 9/11, the very general message of the "Truth Movement" has more than 90% acceptance.

    IMG_20171007_191245.
    https://policyexchange.org.uk/publi...ging-a-survey-of-britains-muslim-communities/

    (This pie chart can been seen on p75 of the PDF).

    Clearly, we can speculate why British Muslims feel this way about 9/11 when they identify as British in a patriotic sense, and in other respects are broadly in agreement with British society (on subjects like secularism, for example). But for whatever reason, it is evident that the official 9/11 story does not persuade many in this particular group -- and I would suggest that it now never will.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 3
  2. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    Where does the 90% figure come from? I make it 44%, with 56% for either Al-Qaeda or "don't know".

    PS Great report, that - very readable and enlightening.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  3. Keith Beachy

    Keith Beachy Active Member

    9/11 is not trivial, 9/11 truth was.

    We? I live on a planet which had/has outstanding people. Mozart, Einstein, and the list goes on, and on. If I were "We", I would take the next spacecraft off of the "planet of idiots", and Join the planet of Bach, and the Beatles. We also have great English Walnuts on earth, and rocky road ice cream. And we have beer, compare beer to 9/11 truth, or Building 7.

    Nope, not more than 90 percent, only 52 percent share the exact same message as most of 9/11 truth, "Did Not Know", clueless, the general message of 9/11 truth fantasy of an inside job false flag CD, et al. I did not know the the general message of 9/11 truth is Jews did it, and US government did it? Where is the logic in declaring people believe in the fantasy of CD, the general message of 9/11 truth? Other, who is other? Is other, beam weapons, nukes, done by the "other". A new Stephen King novel, the "other".

    Only four percent got the question right. 96 percent wrong or don't have a clue. This is why we don't vote for the answers to math and physics questions.
     
  4. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    I for one have focussed on groups that claim to be part of the 9/11 Truth Movement, to the extent that they are visible and have something to measure.

    Sure, but such segments of society are NOT the 9/11 truth Movement! So such a survey, while interesting in its own right, fails to address the thread topic.

    I.e. NOT the 9/11 Truth Movement

    No, completely false! Reveals widespread ignorance of the subject matter, with 52% admitting they don't know, and a further 44% demonstrating that they don't know.

    However, on Page 73: "A plurality of respondents in our Muslim-only survey (40%) agreed that [conspiracy theories, such as 9/11] were utilised by ‘extremists’ to try and dupe Muslims into supporting their views". (My bolding)

    Yes. Since non-Muslims respond in a drastically different manner (a large majority correctly identifying AQ as the guilty party), I think it is fair to speculate that them being Muslims has something to do with that result. I speculate that they feel attacked or ashamed that muslims did 9/11, and are thus incetivized to deny muslim agency.


    One last remark: The Thread Topic - "Has the 9/11 Truth Movement stagnated?" asks about a development over time: In recent years, has the Truth Movement, by whatever metrics, grown, shrunk, or stayed about the same?
    The survey you point to was taken at one spot in time - no time series, no comparison of today with some earlier date. And hence, it fails to enlighten the thread topic.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Cube Radio

    Cube Radio Member

    As every social scientist knows, how people interpret survey data of this kind often reveals rather more about the prejudices and attitudes of those doing the analysis than it does of the group surveyed. Rigorous intellectual hygiene is required to guard against this (not generally a feature of internet forums and certainly not of this one).

    For example, you cannot say with confidence that the survey respondents who answered "do not know" to the question "who was responsible for 9/11" are "clueless" or "ignorant of the subject matter". That is purely supposition -- and a stubborn determination to refuse and reject every suggestion of error in your own world view -- revealing an aggressive and unreflective attachment to the official narrative.

    Saying you "do not know" could also be interpreted as an intellectually honest response to the question made with full understanding of the official story but without conviction in it. One might feel, for example, that the official story is as reliable as the claims Saddam had WMD -- or one might merely observe that the USA rapidly moved to destroy Baghdad in response to 9/11 instead of, say, Riyadh.

    Others may choose to exploit this cognitive gap or perceived weakness by mockingly indulging in reductio ad absurdum and the like, perhaps because they are so wedded to their own beliefs and convinced that they have the answer to everything. I myself am happy to admit I do not know much about how 9/11 really happened; I merely observe that every single scientific experiment investigating how towers collapse supports my view that such structures never rapidly explode to the ground under the force of fire/impact/gravity.

    Similarly, there is nothing in the survey to support the inference that the surveyed British Muslims are ashamed and deny Muslim agency for that reason. It could be that Muslims indeed feel attacked by the official 9/11 narrative, but for that reason have examined it in much greater detail and with far more skepticism than other groups. This may have led them to very good grounds for rejecting the official story (and insofar as there are good grounds for rejecting it, this does indeed represent dangerous potential for radicalisation).

    All we can say with confidence from these recent (2016) survey results is that more than 90% of respondents reject the official story that AQ/Bin Laden was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Why they did so was not formally investigated by the survey, although there are some responses from focus groups detailed in the report. However, it is purely in their rejection of the official narrative that I am suggesting these respondents have anything in common with the "truth movement".
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    I was with you - for a large part - until that last paragraph, where you seem to have totally contradicted your earlier appeal for an adherence to a "rigorous intellectual hygiene".

    All we can say with confidence from that survey question is that 44% of respondents provided answers that were at odds with the 'official story'; 4% provided answers that agreed with the 'official story'; and 52% said they "didn't know".

    It's just as likely that they genuinely didn't know as anything else. Equating saying "I don't know" with "rejecting the official story" - or, indeed, with those respondents being "clueless" - is inferring something that clearly isn't there. We simply "don't know" why they said "don't know" and have to leave it at that.

    Be happy with 44% - that's still a pretty staggering percentage, if you ask me.
     
  7. Cube Radio

    Cube Radio Member

    I disagree, but I don't want to get too diverted by this secondary discussion. However, one must clearly infer that al-Qaida/the official story was there on the questionnaire: an option for the survey's respondents to read and consider among their responses. Only 4% accepted it. Why 96% do not accept it is a matter for speculation, but I would go so far as to say I think it's unlikely that more than half of the respondents were totally unaware that the 9/11 attacks were attributed by the US government to Islamic extremists.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  8. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    I think you might have to get diverted by it, if you insist on persisting with the the 90% claim.

    By the way, I study and write reports like this for a living.

    First thing would be to look at a copy of the survey: was "al-Qaeda there on the questionnaire", as you say we can "clearly infer"? It may well have been; but maybe not.

    And, again, it is not possible to say "96% do not accept [the official story]" - not, that is, if you want to be intellectually honest.

    As for what people are unaware of, I'm never surprised.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
  9. jonnyH

    jonnyH Active Member

    I'm not sure you can draw that conclusion from the data. The question was "who was responsible for 9/11?", answering "the US Government" does not necessarily mean an individual does not accept the official story, the individual may simply believe that the US Governments actions in the middle east in the decades preceding 9/11 are what provoked the attack, and in their mind that makes the US responsible.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Cube Radio

    Cube Radio Member

    Very well; I'm not going to argue about it. It is a shame that the questionnaire was not included in the report, and although I think both the introduction and the conclusion somewhat support my point of view, I am as happy to accept that my interpretation is flawed as am willing to point out the flawed reasoning and interpretations upthread.
     
  11. Cube Radio

    Cube Radio Member

    That's a fair point, but certainly not one implicit in the interpretation of the report's authors, based on their opening and closing remarks.
     
  12. Ray Von Geezer

    Ray Von Geezer Senior Member

    This appears to be the ICM poll used to gather the data - with apologies for not following the no-click policy as I’m mobile at the moment.

    https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Policy-Exchange-ICM-Muslims-Survey-web.pdf

    I’m a little confused by the Policy Exchange summary, since the results for the direct question on ‘Who did 9/11” look to be 71% for Al-Quaeda, 13% USA/Jews/Other:

    The cohort is also ~2000 not 3000, Maybe Policy Exchange combined datasets?

    9/11 CT questions are at the very end of the report.

    Ray Von

    ETA to confirm those are the control group responses, that section is titled ‘conspiracy theories’ and is missing the ‘control group’ header as used to identify the other sections.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  13. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    You're reading for the Non-Muslim control group. See below.
    Fair enough.

    Also in that survey is the data taken from 2,047 non-Muslims - the 'control group' - whose results were as follows:

    control group.JPG

    That's quite a different set of responses. And I suppose if you wanted to you could add the two together and get something of a picture as to who British people as a whole thought was responsible for 9/11 (with some weighting factored in, given that of the 5,087 survey respondents 60% were Muslim, whereas Muslims actually make up around 4.8% of the population).

    Tell you what: I'll whip a table up real quick.

    911 table.JPG

    Et voila - that's who British people think did 9/11.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  14. Ray Von Geezer

    Ray Von Geezer Senior Member

    Yeah just sussed and ETA’d my post - cheers.

    Ray Von
     
  15. Cube Radio

    Cube Radio Member

    Thanks, Rory -- appreciate your analysis. It's quite surprising to see that as much as 10% of the British people think the US government orchestrated 9/11. I would love to be able to drill down further into this and find out more about the age, education, class and so on of this group.

    Even though I'm deeply skeptical of the official 9/11 narrative, I wouldn't personally respond to a survey like this by saying I think the US government as a whole was definitely, directly responsible for the attacks. I'm a don't know, as in: I just don't know how this was done.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Ray Von Geezer

    Ray Von Geezer Senior Member

    All the demographic stats and the questions asked are listed in the survey results linked above.

    I do see a potential problem with the phrasing of the question “Who do you believe was responsible for 9/11?”, particularly with the non-Muslim control group. it could be interpreted by those who believe the attacks were a direct response to the West (US and UK) attitudes to the Middle East, a not uncommon belief here in the UK. “Who do you believe carried out the 9/11 attacks?” Would have been a much better question I think.

    Ray Von
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. jonnyH

    jonnyH Active Member

    "Responsible for" does not equal "orchestrated"

    If a man is convicted of murder and executed in the US who orchestrated the man's execution? And who is responsible?

    The answer to the first question is the State Authorities. The answer to the second could be the murderer, the jury, the judge, the governor, the citizens of the state, the federal authorities or all US citizens depending on your perspective

    You aren't wrong in that you qualify your analysis with "up to" but I could equally conclude that up to 10% of the British public think the US Government provoked the attack.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Cube Radio

    Cube Radio Member

    I concede this point as I did upthread. No doubt Rory could expand on the importance of precise language and well designed questions in surveys. I suppose we can be reasonably confident that there will be other, similar surveys of this nature in years to come.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    That's a commendable attitude: I think "don't know" is often the most honest - and therefore 'correct' - answer to a lot of questions, and it's enlightening how seldom it's used.

    As for the British public, a quick search on what they have been reported to believe by surveys:
    • 52% believe in aliens
    • 39% believe a house can be haunted
    • 34% have 'low trust' in the monarchy
    • 30-34% believe in ghosts or spirits
    • 29% believe in 'some sort of God' (61% described themselves as 'religious', but 61% also felt 'religion was a negative influence in the world')
    • 22% believe humans are not responsible for climate change
    • 18% say there are no aliens because 'humans were created by God'
    • 17% believe Lee Harvey Oswald didn't assassinate JFK
    • 15% believe humans have made contact with aliens (but 17% believe alien contact has been covered up by the government)
    • 12% believe in witches and wizards
    • 12% or 35% or 52% thought the moon landings were a hoax
    • 12% believe in creationism
    • 11% have a 'zombie plan'
    • 11% think the US government was responsible for 9/11
    • 10% believe the Loch Ness Monster is real
    • 9% believe they have communicated with the dead
    • 8% believe in fairies
    • 8% believe in bigfoot
    • 4% believe climate change is not happening
    I post this to provide some context to the figure of 14% of the British public who think someone other than al-Qaeda was responsible for 9/11. If anything, that figure seems quite low. (Of course, public surveys like these should be taken with a whole salt cellar of salt - though I did ensure all the ones quoted had a sample size of at least 1000.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Cube Radio

    Cube Radio Member

    Presumably the British public can also be shown to have some attitudes that are generally held to be true, too.

    [off topic material removed]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2017
  21. Ray Von Geezer

    Ray Von Geezer Senior Member

    There's another possible explanation for the low "Al-Qaeda" and high "Don't know" response to the 9/11 question. Whilst the report has graphs which show metrics for a response of Al-Qaeda, and mentions "al-Qaeda or some other analogous group", the response to the question participants were offered according to the ICM survey document was "Al-Qaeda/Muslim terrorists".

    I see several reasons why inclusion of "Muslim" in the answer would present issues for Muslim respondents, not least an unwillingness to associate the attackers with their own religion/group and a reluctance to acknowledge they would consider the attackers were actually Muslim.

    Ray Von
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    Sure. Just subtract each of those numbers from, say, 80 - leaving 20% for "don't knows" - and there's the approximate percentage that have "attitudes that are generally held to be true." :)
    Could you post the link to the document please? That's good info right there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  23. Ray Von Geezer

    Ray Von Geezer Senior Member

  24. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    You did indeed. I guess I thought you'd found the original questionnaire. I'm wondering if we can confirm whether it really was multiple-choice or not. Seems to have been, judging by the style and the rest of the survey - but then, it's kind of an odd one if it was, offering up "Jews" like that, so it may have been open.

    Salient point on a reddit thread dealing with this survey:

    reddit.JPG

    I.e., forcing a respondent into one choice doesn't tell the whole story.

    Wikipedia actually has a whole page devoted to opinion polls about 9/11 conspiracy theories (which may be useful is gauging changes over time):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_about_9/11_conspiracy_theories

    There's a reference there to a poll done for the BBC in 2011, which found 15% of the US public, and 14% in the UK, thought the US Government was involved in a conspiracy. Slightly different question to this poll; full wording was:
     
  25. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    In a paper titled 'Conspiracy Theories: Causes and Cures', the author states that:
    So accordingly to her, conspiracy theories are even more prevelant in the Muslim world than in the US. I had no idea.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  26. Tomi

    Tomi New Member

    I agree with the above, and it could also mean that people believe Bush/ Cheney knew it would happen and did not try and stop it

    But I think it's inevitable that with time people will believe more in truthers and less in the official reports. The official story is old news format and dry and dull compared to the music videos and sound bites of 9/11truth. People do not know what to believe today

    Fortunately groups like this and ISF help add a bit of perspective for people willing to look below the surface.
     
  27. tadaaa

    tadaaa Active Member

    yes, a good point and I think this would explain at least some of the 52% (and I have come across this sentiment "in the wild" so to speak, I live in the UK btw)