1. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    Ok here is my thought process. I am a believer in the chem-trail theory. While I am not denying that under certain conditions contrails can persist for hours and even spread out, im wondering if these are pictures of just that. To be more clear, I'm wondering if they older pictures are pictures of conditions that are fewer and more far between. I DO take the argument of "you never used to see this in the 90's but now its all day everyday."

    Im not denying that under certain conditions this could happen, and I'm sure that these pictures were taken during those conditions, but where a long the way from the 1990's did it go from being few and far between, to all day everyday....

    Also, why is it that I can watch some planes leave "normal" contrails, but the planes that are seconds or minutes behind them leave "chem-trails" it would seem to me that if the conditions are present to make one contrail last for hours, that they all should.....
     
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    All day every day? I don't think there is anywhere it does that. Certainly several days in a row. But not year round.

    There's a lot more air traffic now. Something like 3x what it was in 1980, as I remember.

    They are are different altitudes. See:
    http://contrailscience.com/why-do-some-planes-leave-long-trails-but-others-dont/
     
  3. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member


    Firstly, there is no "theory" of "chem"trails.

    But, secondly...based on your introduction post (above)....I ask for evidence, please. Could you be specific? Thanks.

    EDIT: What I mean is, based on a re-read of your first post, it is a visual interpretation that is missing the other "angles" such as Mick West pointed out...differing altitudes.

    This is a common misconception by those who mis-understand how contrails actually present.
     
  4. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I see the most common misconception as "atmospheric conditions that lead to contrails are rare". we have cirrus clouds here more often than not, so the atmospheric conditions are not at all rare.

    The other day I had cirrus and lower cumulous etc.. what was so interesting was some planes left persistent contrails and some planes none, BUT because of the way the clouds were layered you could easily SEE why. I took pics but unfortunately the 'layers'/different heights of clouds don't really show up in my pics ; (
     
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  5. Steve Funk

    Steve Funk Active Member

    Hi Vindog, welcome to the board. There is a link somewhere in this forum showing that meteorological conditions suitable for persistent contrails are present in about 16% of the planet at any given time. Also, there is a link showing that passenger air traffic has increased by a factor of 3 since the early '80s. Total airline passenger miles have increased by a factor of 10 since the early '70s. The latter is partly due to larger planes. Maybe someone a little more wonkish can dig up these links.
    The human brain is fair to middling at remembering important things that leave a significant impression, but it is pretty poor at remembering trivial things such as how long the contrails persisted 30 years ago.
     
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  6. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I'm seeing lots of cloud types, might be better if you give Vindog some timestamps of cirrus. I would but I don't really want to watch an hour, I'm supposed to be working :oops:
     
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  7. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    People like Russ Tanner, and others, are saying: "EXTREMELY" rare.
     
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  8. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    Hey guys, thanks for the speedy responses. Im sorry that I am not more articulate in what I am trying to say, but I do think that you all got the point. One point of interest to me as someone pointed out in a reply to me is that yes, planes to fly at different altitudes. With that being said, I seem to notice the planes that fly at LOWER altitudes give off chemtrails more often. I would have thought that planes at higher altitudes would be more prone to this phenomenon.

    I do see chemtrails ALL year round. I do agree that "all-day every day" is probably very poor choice of words. But I do see them persistently all year round. I do not go a day with out seeing at least one, if not seeing them all through out the day. For a little background information, I lived just south of Boston MA, up until about a year ago, and that is where I first started to notice them. How do almost ALL of the airplanes that leave logan airport leave chemtrails almost from the moment of lift-off? Why do all of the chemtrails form into a nasty thick NOT natural looking cloud that extends all the way from Logan airport to as far south as Providence?

    Why am I then able to watch that cloud slowly settle down, down down, not as if it was being blown by wind, but as if it was just dust settling?

    Now I am living just outside Princeton NJ, and the Phenomenon has not changed. I have been out here for a year now, and almost every single day, summer, fall, winter, spring and back again, I have seen them. Some days are worse than others.

    Why is it that I am only NOW starting to see posts from friends in Maine, who took pictures of the chemtrails, and thought that they were "weird" and "cool", as if they had never seen this phenomenon before?

    One or two of you have requested evidence from me...I'm not sure what you mean by that...I do have some pictures on my old smart phone that I could try to retrieve if you would like? I'm pretty sure I have documented the Chem cloud that goes from logan to Providence even in a video if you are interested?

    So yes, I understand that planes travel at different altitudes, and as I say, its usually the lower planes that give off more chemtrails.

    I also understand that there is more air traffic, but this does not explain the rise in chemtrails as I have personally observed it. I spent my childhood summers at the pool stairing at the sky watching all the planes coming and going from Logan....0 % of them left the persistent long lasting chemtrails...they would ALWAYS leave normal dissipating contrails, even on the most humid of days. Now, it seems that the majority (dont know the percentage) of planes in the skies are leaving chemtrails.....the rise in airtraffic does not = a viable answer to this observation.

    This is why I said that it was rare conditions...Just because you have books that show pictures of contrails being persistent and spreading out (which i do not deny can happen) does not prove anything about my own personal observations.....Has the Atmosphere over No. Easton Massachusetts magically changed to fit your viewpoints? I think not.
     
  9. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Planes with fat trails SEEM lower because of size of the trail.
     
  10. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    But that is exactly the sort of hyperbole upon which the chemtrail story is based.

    More hyperbole. That isn't happening or there would be hundreds of images of it all over internet chemtrail sites.
     
  11. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    I understand where you are coming from, and a good example would be whether the Berenstain bears books used to be spelled Berenstain, or Berenstein... How ever, as someone who has always been fascinated by real contrails, It was not trivial to me 20 years ago....I used to watch them. Thats what I did if i wasnt in the pool swimming. And they all acted the same way. Contrail would dissipate with in seconds. every single time. No exceptions.
     
  12. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    ok, but that doesnt explain the fact that I can also see the plane, and use that as a point of reference....
     
  13. Vindog

    Vindog Member


    Ahhh dude, there are THOUSANDS of images of it... Ok, so now im going to try to upload my video from my old smart phone so I can show you my own video of it.
     
  14. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Are you claiming that when you were young, persistent trails did not exist? There are hundreds of photos showing otherwise from as far back as WW2.
     
  15. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    There are THOUSANDS of images of planes which have just taken off from Logan(or any other) airport and which are leaving persistent trails?

    "I can show you my own video of it"

    What a good idea. That would be what is called "evidence".
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
  16. Landru

    Landru Moderator Staff Member

    You cannot tell the altitude of aircraft flying overhead. A 777 flying at 35,000 ft. is going to look lower then a 737 flying at 29,000 ft. Use a flight tracking software and you will become more aware of flight altitudes.
     
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  17. Landru

    Landru Moderator Staff Member

    Produce one.
     
  18. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    No that is NOT what I was claiming, and if you had paid attention to my posts, especially where I said "I am not denying that that can happen" you would know that. What I am saying is that they did not exist in MY area of the world. No. Easton MA. Today, the entire sky is covered w/ artificial clouds....
     
  19. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Can you think of any particular reason why the exhaust from aircraft engines would have behaved any differently over MA than anywhere else?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    This video is not my own. But He shows what I meant by not natural looking. You can literally see the black "dust" settling down...Since when does a water vapor natural cloud turn black and smokey? I am still working on retrieving my own photos and videos from my old smart phone that were taken in or around Boston. If I cannot retrieve them, I will try to take more, and even better ones, this week when I go up to visit friends and family.

    I misunderstood what Hama Neggs meant by there would be hundreds of them over the internet. I thought you just meant pictures of the chemtrails in general, and not the specific Chemcloud that I was reffering to. But even in this video, this random dude that I JUST found by looking for it the first time with a google search of "boston chemtrails" clearly is seeing the same thing so....

    Here is a point to consider as well. Maybe there wouldnt be pictures all over the internet. I mean, me, being someone who clearly believes that they are chemicals, hasn't even taken the time that i really should to document it. I just dont have the time....Do you think people that are not looking for it are going to? just something to consider...

     
  21. Vindog

    Vindog Member


    What I am trying to ascertain from you people here is why they ARE, and they ARE, acting differently today than they were 20 years ago.

    What I am trying to tell you is that while I understand that a real, normal CONtrail CAN act like that, in certain conditions, they never did over south eastern Massachusetts until more recent years. I want to know why. Not why is it different location to location. Why is it differnt from 20 years ago.
     
  22. Landru

    Landru Moderator Staff Member

    This a video of normal contrails. I don't see any black dust settling. You claimed there were thousands of photos of planes producing chemtrails on takeoff. I say again produce one.
     
  23. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    that's just not true. because 20 years ago as I was smoking pot and watching the sky with friends the CONtrails did persist. I know because we would (dont laugh) try to move them into crosses and such with our minds. :oops:

    and they were very most likely the same planes you see/saw as I live(d) between you and NYC. Look at your flightradar data and you can see just how many planes go by you each day.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  24. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    You said I wasn't paying attention to what you were posting. I suggest that YOU are not paying attention to what you are posting. THIS is what you said, and I called hyperbole and said wasn't happening:

    "Vindog said:
    How do almost ALL of the airplanes that leave logan airport leave chemtrails almost from the moment of lift-off?"

    Then you said you could show vid of it. Are you now saying you CAN'T show vid of that happening or ANY photos of it happening?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Vindog

    Vindog Member

     
  26. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    You are asking for a specific explanation for something you have no evidence actually happened. It's just your 'say-so', based on nothing but your memory.Your memory is just as fallible as other people's, which is pretty darn fallible.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    I told you that I have pictures and videos on my own phone. I also said that i misunderstood that he said there would be pictures of it from take off.

    I am charging my phone now, so bare with me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    so you are all saying that your argument is that there are pictures from the past, and that my memory is wrong....great argument...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    And I am sorry, but if you don't see the black dust in that video you are living in denial.
     
  30. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    Also, sorry for the guys poor commentary. LOL
     
  31. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    YOU said there would be pictures of it from take off.

    I have no doubt you have lots of pictures of trails in the sky and that there are THOUSANDS of images of them on the internet. It was your claim that planes were leaving trails, having just taken off from Logan airport, that I called "hyperbole".

    Here, again, is what you posted: "How do almost ALL of the airplanes that leave logan airport leave chemtrails almost from the moment of lift-off?" Are you quoting someone else? Are YOU claiming to have photos of that? Please slow down and say what you mean and read what is being posted to you.
     
  32. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Can I ask what the title is supposed to mean, where it says: " ...Plane Flying Vertical"?

    Please cite a specific time in the vid which you say best shows "black dust" and where in the image you see it.
     
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  33. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    I want to try to bring to conversation back to being constructive, so, is there a way or a website someone could link me to, that I can see what the elevation of the airplanes leaving Logan would be when they are over braintree massachussetts? One of the videos I have on my phone that shows the very long chem cloud from logan to providence is taken from braintree ma, which is just outside of boston.

    I am still trying to get the photos and videos off of my phone, but I am having trouble. It is my old phone and is no longer active so i cannot send them via text or email to myself, so right now I have the phone hooked up to my computer VIA the usb charging cord, but I am struggling. (not very tech savvy anymore)

    Also, if I can figure out those planes altitudes, do you then know the parameters needed for real contrails to act like that (again, im not denying that they can, just that they never did in my area and now the majority do)
     
  34. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    yeah i have no idea, like i say, sorry for the crappy commentary and title. the video is not my own.
     
  35. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Yes. There are thousands of images of persistent contrails from decades ago, proving that they certainly existed. Yes, memory is malleable- this is WELL known. Someone else posting, having old memories from the same region, is saying that she remembers persistent contrails. Who's memory is right, yours or hers?

    PS: My argument was also based on this. Repeat: Can you think of any particular reason why the exhaust from aircraft engines would have behaved any differently over MA than anywhere else?

    Why didn't you answer my question?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
  36. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    There are pilots here who can certainly tell you how high a plane should be at a certain distance from the airport. I am not one of them.

    PS: You said: "...shows the very long chem cloud from logan to providence..."

    You know that plane took off from Logan, how?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
  37. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    That title indicates, to me, someone who has no idea what they are looking at in the sky.
     
  38. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    actually, I never said that there would be hundreds of pictures of it if it was happening..that is what you said...when you said it, i misunderstood what you were saying, and thought you were saying that there would be hundreds of pictures of chemtrails in general, to which i responded that there ARE thousands of general pictures of chemtrails.

    I do have pictures and videos of my own of the chem cloud that extends from Boston to Rhode Island, just having trouble getting them on my laptop.

    I suggest that YOU sir slow down and comprehend the conversation better.
     
  39. Vindog

    Vindog Member

    Ad hominem. Please attack the evidence and not the character of the person presenting the evidence.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  40. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Please cite a specific time in the vid which you say best shows "black dust" and where in the image you see it.