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  1. ColtCabana

    ColtCabana Active Member

    I've seen a few topics about this on various conspiracy websites. An early image after the blast will show a Marathon patron, seemingly fine, walking or standing on their own two feet. Moments later, they are being carted away on a wheelchair towards the medial center located right in Copley Square. Conspiracy theorists seem to imply that they were being portrayed as victims or they are actors. At the Let's Roll Forums, a few users touch upon the subject, which can be seen by clicking here (starting with post #5 by user "Jooles." User "do2read" says "tough to explain that wheelchair ride" in post #8. Well, I figured I would address it.

    I was going to write a long-winded response setting up the scene, but I think it's just easier to get to the point. The police, I assume, wanted to quarter off the area as quickly as possible. A lot of people were standing around, not helping or seemingly just in a daze because of what just happened. Many were being asked to please get into wheelchairs so that they could be taken to the Marathon medical center located in Copley Square. I was asked if I wanted a wheelchair, but I declined and exited the area.

    Mick, if more evidence is needed, please let me know. Just an issue I wanted to clear up with a simple explanation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  2. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    I would at least provide some links and a brief description of those links so we can see what the CT's are about or claiming.
     
  3. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    I assume this was about the victims who were seen walking around before collapsing and being carted away?


    Evolutionaryily speaking, this is what your body is supposed to do in that kind of situation. Shock and adrenaline are amazing things. In the immediate aftermath of a massive injury, the pain response can be basically shut off - either by overload or because the nature of the injury simply destroys the capacity for it (a 3rd degree burn will often be completely painless because of nerve damage).

    Add to that, adrenaline is a natural response to danger. It also suppresses pain and doubles as a "cheat code" for your body's usual limits, letting you run faster, lift more, or hit harder than you normally could.

    Evolution never got the chance to prepare us for high explosives that can inflict these injuries on many people at once, but it did prepare us for being hunted by some terrifyingly powerful predators who could easily do it to a single person. The evolutionary logic here is that it's better to shut off the pain and flee on a broken leg, possibly causing a worse injury, than to be rendered immobile by it and be eaten by whatever caused the injury.

    You see this in combat veterans as well, who sometimes seem to become better fighters after losing a limb or taking a grenade to the chest than they ever were intact. Pretty much half of the stories on badassoftheweek.com are about a soldier being horrifically injured, and in the rush of adrenaline becoming a fearless, unfeeling dreadnought of a person who goes on to do something spectacular like drive a tank column into retreat or take out a platoon of advancing soldiers single handed, then collapses into a coma when the rush ends.

    It's a lot more extreme than staggering halfway down the block before the blood loss catches up to you, but it is the same biological process.

    Also, just tossing out, even if you're not badly injured, paramedics will always put you in a chair or a gurney, just like they'll usually put a neck brace on you if you've been in a car accident. They don't make sure you "really" need to be in the chair first, they put you there before you pass out and hurt yourself. Ten times this when there's another fifty people wandering around who might pass out and hurt themselves and not enough paramedics to get them all triaged in a reasonable amount of time.

    This is half just-in-case and half cover-your-ass, the same basic reason that you're usually not allowed to leave the hospital on foot, but wheeled outside the door, where you can get up and dance a jig for all the doctor's care, because you've past the line where they can be sued for a mistake you yourself made.




    There's also the other one: Victims months or years later being seen walking or standing sometimes, but usually in a wheel chair when on TV.

    This one isn't about adrenaline, but the fact that people don't really seem to understand that disabilities are rarely total. Most blind people can walk into a McDonalds and see the pictures on the menu. Some can even see the numbers. Most can't see the names or prices, though. But, they'll be there, white cane and sunglasses, clearly looking over the menu, and people will accuse them of not "really" being blind.

    Most people who can't walk aren't paraplegic. They can cross a stage, stand up to the bank counter, maybe get from their house to a car or go to the bathroom by themselves. But they can't walk through the mall, finish a trip to the grocery store, or make it through some tedious ceremony honoring their fellow victims.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
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  4. ColtCabana

    ColtCabana Active Member

    I've added a link from Let's Roll Forums.
     
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  5. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    Now that you've got the links, #8 is one of two things, in my opinion (since it doesn't fit anything in my first post, though most of the rest of that thread does):

    Likely, he was just put in the chair by paramedics because this is what they do, as I covered above. Paramedics just don't let patients wander around under their own power, their expertise doesn't extend to diagnosing head injuries or other internal damage, it extends to getting patients safe and secure so they can be transported to a location where they can be diagnosed. There's a lot of just-in-case in the job, and a whole lot of cover-your-ass.

    But, there could be more to it. He's also holding both his ears in several of the pictures, a possible sign of an ear injury, which is really common around bombs. If he had an ear injury, he could have been disoriented and confused, and simply put it's not safe for him or others to have him staggering around.

    The adrenaline thing also comes in, because you can get the adrenaline rush/crash without the injury. It's also a natural panic response, and happens if you see somebody else get severely injured. Your body primes itself to either help them or flee in case you're next, and the whole "bad later over dead now" trade off is in effect. After it wears off, you might be tired, disoriented, confused, weak, etc. This is the effect you see when a runner sets a good time but then can't stand up to receive their medal.

    This ends up being kind of similar to the ear injury, in that letting somebody in that condition wander around a triage area isn't safe for themselves or the victims, and it might be faster and easier to put them in a wheelchair than to try to get them to leave. Not to mention, just-in-case/cover-your-ass, those symptoms might mean a head injury and you don't want to end up in the news as the guy who made a victim drive home with shrapnel in his brain.
     
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  6. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Thanks for sharing, Colt.

    I love the CT logic:

    Someone pulled off a stupendous optical illusion
    --in real time, that George Lucas couldn't pull off with 10 months & ILM--
    that totally fooled thousands of eyewitnesses and tens of millions at home...
    yet they couldn't manage to have the trained actors sit at the right time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
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  7. Redwood

    Redwood Active Member

    As an example, my uncle was wounded in action in WWII after two nearby soldiers were fatally shot. He said he scarcely felt the wound, but felt like finding the guy who shot him and ripping his head off. The next thing he remembered was regaining consciousness in a hospital.
     
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  8. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    Why would they ask non injured people to get in a wheelchair if there are 264 injured people there? [...]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2015
  9. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Because they don't know how injured they were, and it's the quickest way of moving them, or getting them to move themselves.
     
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  10. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    The alternative is to have a confused and frightened person who may have head or inner ear injuries staggering around a trauma triage area where at best they'll get in the way and at worst they could have a brain bleed counting down the seconds until they pass out and fall over, hurting themselves even worse or landing on somebody in worse condition.

    By putting people in a wheelchair, it puts them in the position of a patient which gives emergency personnel defacto authority over them. You don't want witnesses wandering off, and you definitely don't want undiagnosed injuries wandering off.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
  11. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    I would have thought the ambulances would drive right up to the scene instead of wheelchairing baumann in that state down the road and not put him on a stretcher straight into ambulance cos that's what I would want? ?? If I lost both legs a wheelchair joyride is the last thing I would want, I would say no thanks I'll wait for for the ambulance, I'd rather put my legs up in the air to stop the bleeding on the ground and wait for help, hat would you do?
     
  12. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I very much doubt I'd be thinking clearly after getting my legs blown off. But ideally I'd do whatever the medical professionals advised.

    But personal incredulity ("I would have thought...") is not evidence. Please read the posting guidelines. We look at claims of evidence and see if they hold up. ColtCabana was actually there, and explained, based on what he saw and experienced, why they were offering people wheelchair rides. If you want to disagree with him, you'll need some evidence.
     
  13. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    You said it yourself: There were 264 injured people there. Plus who knows how many who were just dazed but still needed triage for the kind of head or inner ear injuries that are common near explosions.

    Have you ever seen what happens if you try to move 264 vehicles of any type through a road that wide in Boston in the best of conditions? Let alone when its choked with debris, police, and active triage areas? Because every patient, and therefore every ambulance has a unique set of circumstances and none can predict when the one in front of them will need to (or be able to) depart, it's entirely possible for ambulances to get too close to a disaster and gridlock the area, which can cost the lives of the most seriously hurt, who in a cruel irony are likely to be loaded into the closest (and therefore most trapped) ambulances.
     
  14. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    Why take an ambulance into a bombed area with casualties all around and potentially secondary explosives? I would prefer the ambulance crew get me into an ambulance and to the hospital ASAP rather than wait until the area is clear or to ask my opinion on the matter.
     
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  15. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    In the Military there is an Ambulance Exchange Point - AXP - and the reason for this is that the wounded are prioritised and sent further down the med-chain according to urgency. If ambulances were permitted to arrive at the point of injury, the chances are they would be overwhelmed by the nearest casualties to them, and not necessarily the most in need of assistance.

    Wheelchairs are a good way of managing casualties and once someone is sat in it they mentally take themselves out of the equation. As Mick pointed out, once adrenaline is flowing the casualty is the last person capable of making lucid observations of the state of their injuries.
     
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  16. ricl

    ricl New Member

    Most towns and cities have Emergency Plans. These include the expected reactions of Medical, Fire, Police, Civic, Army, etc. personnel and how they should operate in many possible disaster scenarios. This will have been discussed and probably trailed over many long meetings and events (though sitting through them can consume many, many hours of your life).

    I doubt that wheelchairs are part of that plan but local improvisation can cover a lot of things. There may even be a directive about using them locally to an aid point if they are available.
     
  17. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Maybe they were following the "Marathon" Emergency Procedures?. I dont want to spend alot of time looking for Boston specifically as all the hoaxer links makes research more difficult, (and NY Marathon has races with wheelchair bound participants making those links pop up first....) but here's a PDF from Canada "An Organized Medical Response for the Vancouver International Marathon (2006Y2011): When the Rubber Hits the Road" that makes it sound like using wheelchairs to transport is common.

    http://www.researchgate.net/publica...hon_(2006-2011)_when_the_rubber_hits_the_road
     

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  18. ricl

    ricl New Member

    That sounds reasonable. Local conditions added to a standard emergency plan.
     
  19. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    Even if a plan doesn't explicitly account for wheelchairs, just by virtue of the scale of response there will be wheelchairs on site. Police, fire, and ambulances are all trained and equipped first responders for medical emergencies. They all have at least some available, either in the cars or stored for just this kind of situation. Aside from the first few police on the scene, there's likely to be one or more wheelchairs on every emergency vehicle that arrives.

    I've also noticed a lot of places in my area have wheelchairs labeled for a different department - years ago when I had my car accident I joked that the MMR ambulance had a Fire Rescue wheelchair, and they said any time more than one truck responds they basically just make sure everybody leaves with the same number they arrived with, since they're all the same anyway. I mention this just to show that there is a surplus of them in circulation and workers aren't shy about just stuffing patients into whatever one is on hand.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
  20. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    it's the Boston marathon. between the large crowds (old people trying to stand too long) and the runners (twisted ankles, pulled hamstrings, general muscle fatigue etc) there must be alot of chairs already on site. it's not llike they are going to bring the majority of these to the hospital and they arent gonna just kick them out of chairs. Even disneyland provides wheelchairs to it's crowds.
     
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  21. ColtCabana

    ColtCabana Active Member

    Hi, RickSOG. Many were being taken to the medical tent located right near the finish line. They were then "dropped off" (for lack of a better term) and the medics would rush the wheelchairs back out to pick up more people. Some, without apparent injuries, were given water and generally, just a place to sit down and collect themselves. This was happening all over Copley Square.
     
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  22. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    So which medical professionals advised Carlos arrodondo to put bauman in a wheelchair and run down the street with the other guy that is clearly holding the other leg for some reason, when you can see in the video no one looks to help him until 5 or so minutes later when arrodondo who is not a medical professional just chucks him in a wheelchair, why didn't they put him on one of the stretchers and into the ambulance as I am sure he was one of the worst injured? Looked more injured than the black girl that luckily got a stretcher to an ambulance.
     
  23. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    Why would you expect anyone here to know that?
     
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  24. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    Maybe Carlos or the other guy or the girl pushing the wheelchair might have said in an interview who told them or trained them to do that?
     
  25. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    Well perhaps. Colt's probably the best to give you an idea of the procedures at the scene as he was there, but I doubt he knows the answer to that exact question.
     
  26. ColtCabana

    ColtCabana Active Member

    RickSOG, it seems as if you're expecting everyone, in that situation, to have everything together and act a certain way. I can tell you that was not how it worked. There were so many injured people that one wouldn't even know where to start. There was no time to assess injuries and decide who needs medical attention more than just looking at them or asking them.

    Everything was moving at a million miles per hour and I think it's entirely unfair for you to suggest that people should act a certain way in such an extraordinary position.

    RickSOG, if you have any specific claims, please feel free to start a topic about it. Anything related to the Boston Marathon bombing and I will reply.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
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  27. occams rusty scissor

    occams rusty scissor Active Member

    Rick - you said in a different thread https://www.metabunk.org/threads/peekay-boston-debunks-debunkers.5901/ (that you started) that you were at the Bali bombing where you lost a friend.

    Tell me - how calm and orderly was that scene? Was there confusion? Did all the victims, witnesses and emergency services people immediately have a laser-like focus on what should be happening or did you see people wandering aimlessly in shock?

    Can you explain how the Bali bombings are any different to the Boston bombings in terms of how real one is vs the other?
     
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